Knicks · GameThread: Chicago Double Dip game, 8pm (page 6)
Kemet wrote:I like Quickley's ending-game stlye .... The 10-13 Thibs-Knicks 107-103 win over the 8-12 Bulls .. was a decent win for the Knicks team, and for player Payton's 20 pt, 4 ast, 8 rb performance.what are you watching?
Now we need to take Rivers out of the rotation for Frank. And we need to cut down on Iso-Randle & Iso-Barrett's minute and leadership on the court for Knox some playing-time. I want Knox to receive more roles on offense plus learn all Randle's offensive moves inside/outside this season, because Knox is a part of our offensive future. I know Knox defense stinks, but so do Randle.
Since forever i was an anti-fan of Lavine. I put him in the too cool for school group with Wiggins. That said, I may have changed my mind some. He is too undisciplined right now but perhaps that can be fixed???
We need a reliable consistent SF presence in the worst way
GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Uptown wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
100% agree. Quick is the future it’s not like we’re a contender. So Why is Payton who has zero future with this team playing more then 20 min a game ? Quick was heating up in the 4 th only to get pulled . Why??? The bulls still went on a run with Payton in he did nothing in the 4th quick couldn’t do plus zero 3 point shot ability...
And I hate the whole well quick has chemistry with the second unit... quick is a fantastic player I have no doubt he would play even better with our best players around him.
fitzfarm wrote:Uptown wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
100% agree. Quick is the future it’s not like we’re a contender. So Why is Payton who has zero future with this team playing more then 20 min a game ? Quick was heating up in the 4 th only to get pulled . Why??? The bulls still went on a run with Payton in he did nothing in the 4th quick couldn’t do plus zero 3 point shot ability...
And I hate the whole well quick has chemistry with the second unit... quick is a fantastic player I have no doubt he would play even better with our best players around him.
Thibs don’t care what we as fans think or what the media thinks and he shows us this with his lineups every game.
wargames wrote:fitzfarm wrote:Uptown wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
100% agree. Quick is the future it’s not like we’re a contender. So Why is Payton who has zero future with this team playing more then 20 min a game ? Quick was heating up in the 4 th only to get pulled . Why??? The bulls still went on a run with Payton in he did nothing in the 4th quick couldn’t do plus zero 3 point shot ability...
And I hate the whole well quick has chemistry with the second unit... quick is a fantastic player I have no doubt he would play even better with our best players around him.
Thibs don’t care what we as fans think or what the media thinks and he shows us this with his lineups every game.
+1
And if Thibs was starting and riding Quick into the ground, the board would be freaking out with "we don't know how to develop yoots properly"...
Impatience, thy name is UK. We've got a college player of the year, who some are ready to chuck out with yesterday's septic waste after less than 20 games, a defensive freak who's still learning how to play the game in Mitch who generates a trade thread every 15 minutes, and a stellar PG who's one year out from one decent season at Kentucky and we deperately need to burn him into the ground.
Maybe Thibs and his staff possibly know what they're doing with Quick?
Frankie's perpetually hurt and in full time doghouse residence with DSJ. Elf is all we got to sit in front of Quick and keep him from getting some stupid injury.
Patience.
Uptown wrote:thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.
We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.
Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also
Nalod wrote:LEts stay away from Zach Lavine in a trade. His defense is awful and an undisciplined checker. He can get buckets.
Zack Lavine is not much of an upgrade over Austin rivers. I wouldn't mind trading for him, but I wouldve give up any significant assets for him. He doesn't fill any major needs, other than having another shooter. Our offensive guards are not the most deciplined already. But our guards have better defensive IQ. As far as Burks and Bullock. I dont see the rush in this trade.
fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.
We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.
Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also
What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....
I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.
RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.
And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.
Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.
We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.
Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also
What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....
I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.
RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.
And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.
I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum of thinking on this. Thibs gave guys like DSJr, Knox, IQ, Obi plenty of leeway to EARN minutes - from the very start he put them in games - and those guy needed to grab that opportunity by the neck and squeeze so tight someone's eyes pop out. IQ did that and performed. Kevin was given 15 minutes a game fairly consistently (give or take) for 15+ games and got WORSE as the games went on. He didn't do the things on the court to earn playing time.
I get that fair balance of allowing young guys to make mistakes but DSJr and Kevin were making the same ones over and over and over and not correcting them.
The team is built on defense. If you play guys like DSJr and Kevin you will take away from the team on those accounts. You will take away from JR, Randle and Mitch and their development.
There has to be balance some times. It's not just about Knox but also about the other guys on the court and what is good for them too
Learning to do the things to WIN is a skill to be learned IMHO
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.
I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.
Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.
100%
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.100%
Last 6 games before last night:
Payton
Mins fg pts ast
31 3-12 7 3
24 3-8 8 2
21 2-7 4 2
23 1-6 2 3
21 3-7 10 3
18 2-5 5 0
Quickley
Mins fg pts ast
17 3-9 8 4
24 9-18 31 4
23 1-11 6 1
25 9-17 25 3
27 9-16 25 3
30 5-13 16 7
Looks to me like a classic case of a Vet that played himself out of his spot and the rook earning his way in....
Uptown wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.100%
Last 6 games before last night:
Payton
Mins fg pts ast
31 3-12 7 3
24 3-8 8 2
21 2-7 4 2
23 1-6 2 3
21 3-7 10 3
18 2-5 5 0Quickley
Mins fg pts ast
17 3-9 8 4
24 9-18 31 4
23 1-11 6 1
25 9-17 25 3
27 9-16 25 3
30 5-13 16 7Looks to me like a classic case of a Vet that played himself out of his spot and the rook earning his way in....
Good look. No need to for a coronation to grant thy Quick the starting job. He is a work in progress and is learning at a great pace.
Uptown wrote:martin wrote:Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.100%
Last 6 games before last night:
PaytonMins fg pts ast
31 3-12 7 3
24 3-8 8 2
21 2-7 4 2
23 1-6 2 3
21 3-7 10 3
18 2-5 5 0Quickley
Mins fg pts ast
17 3-9 8 4
24 9-18 31 4
23 1-11 6 1
25 9-17 25 3
27 9-16 25 3
30 5-13 16 7Looks to me like a classic case of a Vet that played himself out of his spot and the rook earning his way in....
I mean, it's happening right? We all know that IQ will be a starter
Uptown wrote:How about you play the best basketball your team is capable of playing, and if you only made the 8th or 9th seed look at why. You act like if we cant win 50 we shouldnt win at all. At what point are young players held accountable? Knicks were 25-41 last year and often totally non competitive. This team is in it every night. The best guys are playing right now and they all look at the same tape. I love everything about IQ and I am great with him getting the quick hook for rushing poor shots, not closing out... the stuff that is going to get you pulled by this coach. He seems pretty demanding and pretty fair so far.fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.
We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.
Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also
What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....
I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.
RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.
And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.
Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.
The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs
EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.
Nalod wrote:LEts stay away from Zach Lavine in a trade. His defense is awful and an undisciplined checker. He can get buckets.
This for me. He can violate you in a variety of ways but outside of his shooting I think Randle impacts the game in a lot more ways.
Same too for KK and Obi
there are no guaranteed minutes. Earn them and re-earn them. Not saying that's the only way to coach. there have certainly been instances where we say Thibs should be letting other guys play because the game is settled. But there are no mixed messages with this guy
Chandler wrote:There is some chance Elf played motivated because he started to realize he would lose his job. Now Quick has to stay on top of his game because Elf is playing betterSame too for KK and Obi
there are no guaranteed minutes. Earn them and re-earn them. Not saying that's the only way to coach. there have certainly been instances where we say Thibs should be letting other guys play because the game is settled. But there are no mixed messages with this guy
+1
fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:How about you play the best basketball your team is capable of playing, and if you only made the 8th or 9th seed look at why. You act like if we cant win 50 we shouldnt win at all. At what point are young players held accountable? Knicks were 25-41 last year and often totally non competitive. This team is in it every night. The best guys are playing right now and they all look at the same tape. I love everything about IQ and I am great with him getting the quick hook for rushing poor shots, not closing out... the stuff that is going to get you pulled by this coach. He seems pretty demanding and pretty fair so far.fishmike wrote:Uptown wrote:thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.GustavBahler wrote:Knixkik wrote:Sambakick wrote:KnickDanger wrote:Sambakick wrote:TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.We do have one who shoots the worst way.
Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.
He can be a very solid backup though.
Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.
In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...
Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.
Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.
We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.
Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also
What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....
I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.
RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.
And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.
Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.
The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs
EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.
First and foremost, I hope you are not reading into my words and assuming that I'm saying Thibs is not a good coach. Before we hired our coach this summer, I was on record saying Atkinson was my Number 1 guy because of his history with developing rosters and young talent. But I was also the one that said Thibs checks most of the boxes. Thibs is a really good coach, no question. He's done a really good job of giving us an identity, one that we have lacked for years. But as good as he is, he is not without his warts.
I agree that young players should be held accountable. Clearly, Thibs is holding his young players accountable as Knox has been pulled from the lineup, Obi gets a quick hook, and as well as Quick has played, we've seen him get a quick hook from time. It's also clear, that the vets have a longer leash than the younger players do.
We've watched Rivers go 5-26 from the field in 5 straight games before his first half explosion against Utah, then follow that up with 2-12 over the next 3. We also watch Rivers over dribble and massage the ball after coming off screens and instead of shooting as he's supposed to. Knox was benched for having such a stretch...you and I both know that Rivers aint getting pulled from the lineup. And lets not pretend like these "vets" that we have come with championship experience or allstar pedigree. Payton doesn't even have playoff experience.
Speaking of Payton, you and I can agree to disagree on Payton being a better pg for this current team. The one thing Payton used to do well and kept him in the league was his playmaking ability. He's averaging 3 asts per game which is half of his career average. Also, this playmaker is putting up more shots than he ever has and is shooting a career worse from the field. His numbers are down across the board. Of late, RJ and Randle have been initiating the offense while Payton has been playing off the ball more which isn't a weakness of his but a strength of Quickleys. One other thing to keep in mind, Payton is always on the court with Randle and RJ, which helps him a ton while Quick is usually on the floor with the 2nd unit. Quickley looked pretty good in the 4th quarter with RJ and Randle and finished with 16, 7 and 6.
Lastly, when I said purgatory, I was thinking of the Orlando Magic. Steve Clifford sat beside Thibs who sat beside Van Gundy so they are from the same coaching tree. Clifford, like Thibs, is a defensive-first culture builder. The Magic were a 7th seed his first year, 8th seed last year and sit 12th this year. Vucevic is a fringe all-star similar to the way Randle has performed this year....One thing I will say about Clifford...when he got the job, instead of handing the keys to the journeymen pg, Augustine, he gave the ball to the future pg right away in Fultz.
I'm going to be totally transparent here and say I would much rather have a favorable chance to land a top 5 pick in a draft that is one of the best in years as opposed to landing the 9th spot in the play-in tournament with Payton Bullock soaking stater minutes. The Orlando Magic are not the team I aspire us to be, battling for 7th and 8th seeds and missing the playoffs by several games for the next few years.
This summer, will be the third straight summer we will have massive cap space. I want to sign a star just as much as you do, but thats been a wish of ours for damn-near 30 years since we signed Houston. We outbid ourselves for Amare and he gave us a great half season before he became an absolute shell of himself....The free agent cupboard is bare this summer anyway and either this summer or next, we are going to have to make a decision on Randle.