Knicks · I think we need Lonzo ball because (page 2)

I can admit my mistake.

My topic is mute...

But I still believe in that lineup.

xblvdels3 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Question to all on thread that feel this is a good idea. The Pels have the most improved player in NBA for 2020 and an all start in Ingram. They have the chosen one in Zion. They have a player in Bledsoe that this fan base would have given their first born for a couple years back. They have Steven Adams who is probably top 15 among centers. They have a sharp shooting vet in Redick. They have a former first and solid complimentary young piece in Josh Hart. And of course the former Knick fandom saviors to be in Hermagomez and Kira Lewis. You would think that adding our proposed future final piece savior (Lonzo) would propel them to top three. Yet the Pelicans are 12 and 16?????

This seems like the Pels trying to see who is desperate enough to offer assets for a piece that quite frankly has more hype that substance. Can he be a very good player in the league. Of course. Has he shown that he deserves the same value as multiple players and draft picks? Unless everyone thinks the Knicks should be desperate than okay. I don't.

Who said Lonzo ball was our savior. I just said he makes the most sense for us. (Keep adding players) we have the cap to pick up another all star also.

Point was, how much can a guy help this roster when he has not done much to help his current roster. Which imo is very good.

xblvdels3 wrote:

martin wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:1. The way we are playing we won’t finish high enough to get a cade or suggs.
2. As good as rose can be his age will slow him down. You won’t get top energy/production consistently
3. Ball shoots a respectable 3 percentage.
4. Young legs. Can run with obi. Fits core timeline.
5. If he is starting there won’t be a ton of shots with Randle and RJ left
6. Very good floor facilitator.
7. Adequate defense
8. Yes there are better free agent guards out there but they are on the wrong side of 30.
9. We can stop worrying over a pg.

A first round pick and a future second and 2-3 situational players get this done?

Crossed off the points that really don't move the needle on the decision making process in a trade for Lonzo.

Additional considerations:

1. What 1st round pick and how heavily protected?
2. What price do you see re-signing Lonzo and how does it effect salary cap going forward?
3. If Lonzo is all of the things you describe, why is NOH trading him?
4. What is his upside that would entice you to trade for him? Right now he is not really pushing a team fully of talent

Ok Martin I’m tired of trying to put toghethor a respectable realistic basketball team that can be good for a long time.

I give up!!! Let’s trade everyone for Beal!!! I’m done.

I’m offering 3 first round picks a second and RJ Barret and Knox and rivers.

Let’s move this needle!!!! 😅😂

1. Pelicans have to many good pgs already
2. Give them out first round pick this year
3. He is a floor general and a quality starting pg ( he is not the savior) just the pg. I wouldn’t pay no more than 15m per season for him next year.

How can you seriously look at my future lineup and not think we cannot challenge for a championship for the next 5 years ??

In 3 years RJ will be 20 ppg

Randle will be 20 ppg

Beal/Lavine would be 25-30ppg

Ball would be 15 ppg

Mitch could be 13 ppg

How can you seriously trash my lineup????

If you want to play gm with me I can answer everyone of your questions but the truth is you have your idea for a lineup and anyone who doesn’t include your desired players you bash.

I’m not rookie to this game. I know the finances as well as the game

If you want to get really technical with the gm
Questions to me just ask I’ll answer.

Beal played all those years with Wall. They had nothing to show for it. Lonzo was not worth much prior to last year with his patented shot. He is now clipping 38 so we should give up multiple assets for him? You do not see this as a reach? My suggestion is for people to actually watch several Pelicans games and then tell me they still feel this is the kid we are missing.

The reason Ball isnt having more of an impact on the Pels is the makeup of the team. They have high powered scorers like Zion and Ingram, who can also run the point. Not just them. Ball doesnt play a traditional PG role there. Different situation in NY.

Ball doesnt play adequate defense, he plays elite defense. Guessing he needs to find a team where he can be the man, or closer to it.

HofstraBBall wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Question to all on thread that feel this is a good idea. The Pels have the most improved player in NBA for 2020 and an all start in Ingram. They have the chosen one in Zion. They have a player in Bledsoe that this fan base would have given their first born for a couple years back. They have Steven Adams who is probably top 15 among centers. They have a sharp shooting vet in Redick. They have a former first and solid complimentary young piece in Josh Hart. And of course the former Knick fandom saviors to be in Hermagomez and Kira Lewis. You would think that adding our proposed future final piece savior (Lonzo) would propel them to top three. Yet the Pelicans are 12 and 16?????

This seems like the Pels trying to see who is desperate enough to offer assets for a piece that quite frankly has more hype that substance. Can he be a very good player in the league. Of course. Has he shown that he deserves the same value as multiple players and draft picks? Unless everyone thinks the Knicks should be desperate than okay. I don't.

Who said Lonzo ball was our savior. I just said he makes the most sense for us. (Keep adding players) we have the cap to pick up another all star also.

Point was, how much can a guy help this roster when he has not done much to help his current roster. Which imo is very good.

You can say that about many players who aren’t with Lebron kd kawhi curry etc etc. but I understand understand your point. They have more talent than us.

HofstraBBall wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:

martin wrote:

xblvdels3 wrote:1. The way we are playing we won’t finish high enough to get a cade or suggs.
2. As good as rose can be his age will slow him down. You won’t get top energy/production consistently
3. Ball shoots a respectable 3 percentage.
4. Young legs. Can run with obi. Fits core timeline.
5. If he is starting there won’t be a ton of shots with Randle and RJ left
6. Very good floor facilitator.
7. Adequate defense
8. Yes there are better free agent guards out there but they are on the wrong side of 30.
9. We can stop worrying over a pg.

A first round pick and a future second and 2-3 situational players get this done?

Crossed off the points that really don't move the needle on the decision making process in a trade for Lonzo.

Additional considerations:

1. What 1st round pick and how heavily protected?
2. What price do you see re-signing Lonzo and how does it effect salary cap going forward?
3. If Lonzo is all of the things you describe, why is NOH trading him?
4. What is his upside that would entice you to trade for him? Right now he is not really pushing a team fully of talent

Ok Martin I’m tired of trying to put toghethor a respectable realistic basketball team that can be good for a long time.

I give up!!! Let’s trade everyone for Beal!!! I’m done.

I’m offering 3 first round picks a second and RJ Barret and Knox and rivers.

Let’s move this needle!!!! 😅😂

1. Pelicans have to many good pgs already
2. Give them out first round pick this year
3. He is a floor general and a quality starting pg ( he is not the savior) just the pg. I wouldn’t pay no more than 15m per season for him next year.

How can you seriously look at my future lineup and not think we cannot challenge for a championship for the next 5 years ??

In 3 years RJ will be 20 ppg

Randle will be 20 ppg

Beal/Lavine would be 25-30ppg

Ball would be 15 ppg

Mitch could be 13 ppg

How can you seriously trash my lineup????

If you want to play gm with me I can answer everyone of your questions but the truth is you have your idea for a lineup and anyone who doesn’t include your desired players you bash.

I’m not rookie to this game. I know the finances as well as the game

If you want to get really technical with the gm
Questions to me just ask I’ll answer.

Beal played all those years with Wall. They had nothing to show for it. Lonzo was not worth much prior to last year with his patented shot. He is now clipping 38 so we should give up multiple assets for him? You do not see this as a reach? My suggestion is for people to actually watch several Pelicans games and then tell me they still feel this is the kid we are missing.

So you want Lowry Chris Paul holiday Schroeder? Lol (past their prime or does not fit a logical timeline)

You have to make a choice.

Or stick with our main man elf lol

We are drafting between 8 and 18 most likely. So we are not getting cade or suggs

Your the gm. You have to make a decision that makes good basketball sense and financial sense.

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Pels play a lot of national TV games. Way too much for my liking tbh

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

Or we can use our cap to sign an old veteran pg who will be out half the season instead of using it on a wing which we need. 😅

EwingsGlass wrote:I like the idea of getting Lonzo. Don’t really understand why NO would be trading him now that he is showing some shooting prowess.

He’s shooting just like last year so there’s enough sample size for his improved shooting now. I think New Orleans is cheap and won’t pay him what he’s going to get on the market.

TPercy wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Pels play a lot of national TV games. Way too much for my liking tbh

joec32033 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:I like the idea of getting Lonzo. Don’t really understand why NO would be trading him now that he is showing some shooting prowess.

He’s shooting just like last year so there’s enough sample size for his improved shooting now. I think New Orleans is cheap and won’t pay him what he’s going to get on the market.

Welpee wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

I think it would be the opposite. Like DSJ he looks intriguing on somebody else's team. Then he gets on your squad and you learn why they were willing to move him.

Not a great comparison because Lonzo is proven at this point to be a plus shooter, defender, and playmaker. He may be streaky and frustrating but we can all agree we need those things he brings. What does this team need most in the starting lineup? A good 3pt shooter and secondary playmaker without losing anything on defense. He provides that package.

Knixkik wrote:

Welpee wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

I think it would be the opposite. Like DSJ he looks intriguing on somebody else's team. Then he gets on your squad and you learn why they were willing to move him.

Not a great comparison because Lonzo is proven at this point to be a plus shooter, defender, and playmaker. He may be streaky and frustrating but we can all agree we need those things he brings. What does this team need most in the starting lineup? A good 3pt shooter and secondary playmaker without losing anything on defense. He provides that package.

The gap between Payton and Lonzo is marginal right now. If you asked me if I could just dump Payton and pick up Lonzo would I do it, sure. If you ask would I invest trading assets for Lonzo and then have to sign him to a contract likely making at least 3x what Payton makes, not interested.

And the DSJ comparisons is not about the specifics of their game. It's about a player looking decent on paper, putting up numbers you think are intriguing, or you watch highlights and think that's a guy I want in a Knick uniform. Then he gets here and he gets the Elfrid treatment and people want him out. I guarantee you if you looked on the Pelican message board removed the name "Lonzo" you'd probably swear they were talking about Payton. I bet their fans aren't dying to resign Lonzo.

Welpee wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Welpee wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

I think it would be the opposite. Like DSJ he looks intriguing on somebody else's team. Then he gets on your squad and you learn why they were willing to move him.

Not a great comparison because Lonzo is proven at this point to be a plus shooter, defender, and playmaker. He may be streaky and frustrating but we can all agree we need those things he brings. What does this team need most in the starting lineup? A good 3pt shooter and secondary playmaker without losing anything on defense. He provides that package.

So let me understand this, we're picking up Lonzo for his shooting?

The gap between Payton and Lonzo is marginal right now. If you asked me if I could just dump Payton and pick up Lonzo would I do it, sure. If you ask would I invest trading assets for Lonzo and then have to sign him to a contract likely making at least 3x what Payton makes, not interested.

And the DSJ comparisons is not about the specifics of their game. It's about a player looking decent on paper, putting up numbers you think are intriguing, or you watch highlights and think that's a guy I want in a Knick uniform. Then he gets here and he gets the Elfrid treatment and people want him out. I guarantee you if you looked on the Pelican message board removed the name "Lonzo" you'd probably swear they were talking about Payton. I bet their fans aren't dying to resign Lonzo.

This is what i'm not understanding. Ball is a better playmaker and defender than Payton and a significantly better shooting. It's like night and day. There isn't a world where Ball is only marginally better than Payton in any sense. I'm not saying Ball is some world beater or big missing piece, but he is a significant upgrade to both Payton and Bullock and covers areas we need improvements in. Look at his 3pt shooting numbers this year and last year. He's become a high-volume 38% 3pt shot maker. Payton is a non-shooter and has taken a step back in terms of playmaking because teams play zone and dare him to shoot. That won't happen as much with Ball.

Knixkik wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Welpee wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:Question for everybody salivating over Lonzo Ball: when was the last time you actually watched him play? Not highlights, Not UCLA video. Watched him for a full game as a Pelican, and be honest.

Lonzo ball is not very good—-over rated. Not a guy who will tilt the needle

I think alot of guys would like him if he was here already. Giving up real assets for him is a little tough with a limited track record in the area we need (his shooting). I would sign him for money. I wouldn't give up future assets for him. Unless you can pull a Payton for Ball straight swap...

I think it would be the opposite. Like DSJ he looks intriguing on somebody else's team. Then he gets on your squad and you learn why they were willing to move him.

Not a great comparison because Lonzo is proven at this point to be a plus shooter, defender, and playmaker. He may be streaky and frustrating but we can all agree we need those things he brings. What does this team need most in the starting lineup? A good 3pt shooter and secondary playmaker without losing anything on defense. He provides that package.

So let me understand this, we're picking up Lonzo for his shooting?

The gap between Payton and Lonzo is marginal right now. If you asked me if I could just dump Payton and pick up Lonzo would I do it, sure. If you ask would I invest trading assets for Lonzo and then have to sign him to a contract likely making at least 3x what Payton makes, not interested.

And the DSJ comparisons is not about the specifics of their game. It's about a player looking decent on paper, putting up numbers you think are intriguing, or you watch highlights and think that's a guy I want in a Knick uniform. Then he gets here and he gets the Elfrid treatment and people want him out. I guarantee you if you looked on the Pelican message board removed the name "Lonzo" you'd probably swear they were talking about Payton. I bet their fans aren't dying to resign Lonzo.

This is what i'm not understanding. Ball is a better playmaker and defender than Payton and a significantly better shooting. It's like night and day. There isn't a world where Ball is only marginally better than Payton in any sense. I'm not saying Ball is some world beater or big missing piece, but he is a significant upgrade to both Payton and Bullock and covers areas we need improvements in. Look at his 3pt shooting numbers this year and last year. He's become a high-volume 38% 3pt shot maker. Payton is a non-shooter and has taken a step back in terms of playmaking because teams play zone and dare him to shoot. That won't happen as much with Ball.

Ball
16.3 ppg
5.5 assists
5.0 reb
2.4 to
74% FT
38% 3 pt
1.4 steals
.9 Defensive win share
-1.1 Defensive +/-

Payton
15.9 ppg
4.6 assists
5.0 reb
2.5 to
72% FT
25% 3 pt
.8 steals
.5 Defensive win share
-.4 Defensive +/-

I don't see where the stats indicated more than a marginal difference between the two and watching Ball play recently lines up with the stats. Difference certainly doesn't justify giving up assets and paying Ball at least triple what we're paying Payton.

Now if you are projecting Lonzo getting significantly better with time, that's a different discussion.