He doesn’t have good fundamental basketball skills
He’s a great undersized athletic 4-5 in college basketball
So far his athletic ability has had little effect in the nba even though he’s 22-23. He doesn’t have shoot dribble pass skills. He has rim runner skills with a bad 3 point shot abs almost no handle or feel.
Not saying he can’t develop— would’ve been good with westchester picking up game skills — but he’s more of a niche player. I think he might’ve done ok if mike da to I was head coach and played him at 5. Don’t see that here
BRIGGS wrote:He doesn’t have good fundamental basketball skills
He’s a great undersized athletic 4-5 in college basketballSo far his athletic ability has had little effect in the nba even though he’s 22-23. He doesn’t have shoot dribble pass skills. He has rim runner skills with a bad 3 point shot abs almost no handle or feel.
Not saying he can’t develop— would’ve been good with westchester picking up game skills — but he’s more of a niche player. I think he might’ve done ok if mike da to I was head coach and played him at 5. Don’t see that here
He was a bad pick for this team. We drafted an undersized Center with no lateral movement skills at 8. The Knicks drafted a guy to play a role he is not familar with and doesn't have the skills to play. There were better players available. I think he would've fallen to the late lottery. Don't understand why the front office was so obsessed with him. I think we should trade him to get a young PG or a SF's bird rights before his value dwindles to nothing
I immediately said Toppin was not my choice even if we don’t consider he play the same position as Randle. He just doesn't have a very high ceiling in the NBA, and he's no longer a kid to count on "having more than enough time." When you add we have Randle in that position and when we know Thibs plays top players 35+ minutes per game, it was clear what would happen. Like I said, I would take Haliburton or Vassell from the available players.
But again, he is not a bust for now and I believe he can become a useful rotating player.
I hope this thread goes in the way of the "Iq isn’t physically ready for nba" thread and BRIGGS starts another thread "Obi is da bomb!"
Toppin looks lost out there. He's pressing, doesnt look like he's sure where he's supposed to be on the court at times.
Im guessing that Obi will figure things out. When that happens, once Obi starts working with a real floor general as well, the change will be very dramatic.
Kenny Walker 2.0.
I hope that is the wrong assessment. We've seen flashes of why he went 8 and was hyped coming into the draft.
But we also so flashes from Frank, from DSjr, from others that have come and gone.
We should definitely not be afraid to bundle him up. Knox, Obi, Frank & a first rounder for Vučević? Or something similar?
I have to imagine that packaging up some of the young players that need a chance, change of scenery to a over the cap rebuilding team like Orlando or Washington should be worth their consideration, and that cap savings alone warrants consideration.
Again, another reflex post after a loss where the some looked not so good.
And yet there was Barrett poised and looking great. Instead we move on from bashing him, take his ascention for granted and turn on Obi. Frank is easy pickings these days.
“Bust”? “I don’t see it”. For many fans if you can’t see it then it can’t ever happen?
Obi timeline was likely limited to easy conditioning because of Covid shut down. Don’t get hurt, Get drafted then report in two weeks for the shortest of camps then play condensed season with little practice.
Some players/Rookies will look better because not all are the same.
I’ll reserve judgement until OBI can work with his team in the off season. I think he not in peak conditioning, got hurt early in camp, then has been behind. Also Thibs and company might have been breaking him down and putting him together right which can mess with a kids head. Same for knox. He looks way too cerebral early in the season. Obi has a hesitancy to game. Add frank to the list too. These kids are not right. IM not by any stretch saying Bryant and Payne are doing a bad job, in fact it might be “the process” they are employing. I’ll leave it to them to decide if they are “Done”.
franco12 wrote:Kenny Walker 2.0.I hope that is the wrong assessment. We've seen flashes of why he went 8 and was hyped coming into the draft.
But we also so flashes from Frank, from DSjr, from others that have come and gone.
We should definitely not be afraid to bundle him up. Knox, Obi, Frank & a first rounder for Vučević? Or something similar?
I have to imagine that packaging up some of the young players that need a chance, change of scenery to a over the cap rebuilding team like Orlando or Washington should be worth their consideration, and that cap savings alone warrants consideration.
Yeah, similar assessment, though Skywalker came home with the dunk contest crown and had pretty much the coolest "knickname"... though another odd parallel is Toppin goes by Obi 1. KENOBI!
The Knicks were clearly going for the best player available approach - the highest odds of becoming a superstar based on where we drafted. Plus we were probably planning ahead for Randle failing and moving on from the Knicks.
So the challenges (all obvious):
* Randle has become an all-NBA level monster this season and his best position happens to be Obi 1's. Without Randle's performance this year, we're not close to a playoff contender.
* Thib's system at the moment (perhaps the only system the Knicks have a chance of winning with our current personnel) doesn't play to Obi's strengths... in fact, a slow half-court game really amplifies his weaknesses and underdeveloped aspects of his game.
franco12 wrote:Kenny Walker 2.0.I hope that is the wrong assessment. We've seen flashes of why he went 8 and was hyped coming into the draft.
But we also so flashes from Frank, from DSjr, from others that have come and gone.
We should definitely not be afraid to bundle him up. Knox, Obi, Frank & a first rounder for Vučević? Or something similar?
I have to imagine that packaging up some of the young players that need a chance, change of scenery to a over the cap rebuilding team like Orlando or Washington should be worth their consideration, and that cap savings alone warrants consideration.
It's difficult to determine what Obi Toppin will be based on 10-12 minutes of burn a game. What I remember of Kenny Walker is that the similarities with Obi Toppin end with the athleticism/flashy dunks. Aside from the dunks, Walker I seem to remember was more like Noah with the ball in his hands......i.e. having no mid-range or 3 point shot making abilities. It is still too soon to tell with Toppin - he's obviously not currently performing comfortably in the spark-plug limited minutes off the bench role.
No luck with #8/9 picks.
It's the curse of Michael Sweetney!
I don't think we know anything about Toppin at this point. He hasn't truly played in a meaningful way yet. There's gonna be a game where someone is injured and he has to play 30 minutes and key mins and we need to see how he responds. When you're not out there every game you don't play instinctually. Quickley came out more aggressive playing his game and is contributing more and it makes us impatient about Toppin. But Toppin was drafted to a position with less opportunity so he hasn't had the chance to come out and play his game.
technomaster wrote:franco12 wrote:Kenny Walker 2.0.I hope that is the wrong assessment. We've seen flashes of why he went 8 and was hyped coming into the draft.
But we also so flashes from Frank, from DSjr, from others that have come and gone.
We should definitely not be afraid to bundle him up. Knox, Obi, Frank & a first rounder for Vučević? Or something similar?
I have to imagine that packaging up some of the young players that need a chance, change of scenery to a over the cap rebuilding team like Orlando or Washington should be worth their consideration, and that cap savings alone warrants consideration.
Yeah, similar assessment, though Skywalker came home with the dunk contest crown and had pretty much the coolest "knickname"... though another odd parallel is Toppin goes by Obi 1. KENOBI!
The Knicks were clearly going for the best player available approach - the highest odds of becoming a superstar based on where we drafted. Plus we were probably planning ahead for Randle failing and moving on from the Knicks.
So the challenges (all obvious):
* Randle has become an all-NBA level monster this season and his best position happens to be Obi 1's. Without Randle's performance this year, we're not close to a playoff contender.
* Thib's system at the moment (perhaps the only system the Knicks have a chance of winning with our current personnel) doesn't play to Obi's strengths... in fact, a slow half-court game really amplifies his weaknesses and underdeveloped aspects of his game.
This.
I'll go on record that I still like Obi as the pick. Tools are there. He has a 3 point shot (needs to lean on it less). Obviously has ups. Has some nice moves close to the bucket (needs to recognize when to adjust and not always go for the dunk). His man to man defense is better than I expected, although team d is still lagging. I don't expect him to ever be a stopper.
Randle is our all star, and to quote 
, we're riding him like Secretariat. Obi's going to be the first to suffer for that, but it's fine. He's a rookie. Watch and learn. When he is in, we're not typically running plays for him. I can think of one pick and roll with IQ and one with Rose.
Otherwise, he's out there doing the small stuff. Moving non stop, setting screens, diving for balls.
He's older, so we expected more of a finished product. I think after his rookie year and an off season with this coaching staff, we're going to see a much more polished version of him next season.
The 8th pick has always been a suspect pick for the knicks more so than not.
channing Frye
jordan hill
frank
OBI
Toppin has the skills but he is on a team without a pt guard to facilitate and he is not at the level to get his own shot... had we gotten a CP or even Lonzo Ball...starting the season...you would see a different player...when I see someone like him play in college then come to the NBA an look like a fish out of water...there is always a reason....he does not have the strength to move people off the block or the skills to confidently handle the ball to hunt his own shot on iso possessions...right now I see a player doubting himself...and more importantly maybe feeling his coach not believing in him...
This is not an Ed O'Bannon situation....a player that dominated college but did not have the requisite positional skills to be successful in the NBA.....
With Obi and his family structure(namely his dad) I expect him to put in the work this off season....and next season we will see...
Nalod wrote:Again, another reflex post after a loss where the some looked not so good.
And yet there was Barrett poised and looking great. Instead we move on from bashing him, take his ascention for granted and turn on Obi. Frank is easy pickings these days.
“Bust”? “I don’t see it”. For many fans if you can’t see it then it can’t ever happen?
Obi timeline was likely limited to easy conditioning because of Covid shut down. Don’t get hurt, Get drafted then report in two weeks for the shortest of camps then play condensed season with little practice.
Some players/Rookies will look better because not all are the same.
I’ll reserve judgement until OBI can work with his team in the off season. I think he not in peak conditioning, got hurt early in camp, then has been behind. Also Thibs and company might have been breaking him down and putting him together right which can mess with a kids head. Same for knox. He looks way too cerebral early in the season. Obi has a hesitancy to game. Add frank to the list too. These kids are not right. IM not by any stretch saying Bryant and Payne are doing a bad job, in fact it might be “the process” they are employing. I’ll leave it to them to decide if they are “Done”.
This post is so spot on there's no more that needs to be said.
give him a full summer camp/pre-season. Also a true floor general, design plays for him and go from there.
Jmpasq wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He doesn’t have good fundamental basketball skills
He’s a great undersized athletic 4-5 in college basketballSo far his athletic ability has had little effect in the nba even though he’s 22-23. He doesn’t have shoot dribble pass skills. He has rim runner skills with a bad 3 point shot abs almost no handle or feel.
Not saying he can’t develop— would’ve been good with westchester picking up game skills — but he’s more of a niche player. I think he might’ve done ok if mike da to I was head coach and played him at 5. Don’t see that here
He was a bad pick for this team. We drafted an undersized Center with no lateral movement skills at 8. The Knicks drafted a guy to play a role he is not familar with and doesn't have the skills to play. There were better players available. I think he would've fallen to the late lottery. Don't understand why the front office was so obsessed with him. I think we should trade him to get a young PG or a SF's bird rights before his value dwindles to nothing
This is why I wanted to trade the pick for a couple of lower LOTTO BALL chances. However, can't blame the Knicks. When Toppin was available at 8 (Which he was not projected to be), I wanted him as well and thought you had to pick him. The shiny object got us again. Think it is a good lesson for the draft. Always best to have multiple chances instead of just one that relies on an overhyped 18-year-old. As you just never know how they will translate on to the NBA.
Btw. for those thinking the draft is the way going forward, they may want to look at teams that have consistently had lottery picks the last 10 years and see how they are doing. Then look at the NEts and Lakers and see how they are doing. While I agree that the draft is the way some teams need to rebuild, it is also important to note that the very good teams make free agent moves that keep them competing for chips. Even if they have to give up those prized fan hopefuls. Think we are are that stage. And yes, it is a scary stage.
HofstraBBall wrote:Jmpasq wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He doesn’t have good fundamental basketball skills
He’s a great undersized athletic 4-5 in college basketballSo far his athletic ability has had little effect in the nba even though he’s 22-23. He doesn’t have shoot dribble pass skills. He has rim runner skills with a bad 3 point shot abs almost no handle or feel.
Not saying he can’t develop— would’ve been good with westchester picking up game skills — but he’s more of a niche player. I think he might’ve done ok if mike da to I was head coach and played him at 5. Don’t see that here
He was a bad pick for this team. We drafted an undersized Center with no lateral movement skills at 8. The Knicks drafted a guy to play a role he is not familar with and doesn't have the skills to play. There were better players available. I think he would've fallen to the late lottery. Don't understand why the front office was so obsessed with him. I think we should trade him to get a young PG or a SF's bird rights before his value dwindles to nothing
This is why I wanted to trade the pick for a couple of lower LOTTO BALL chances. However, can't blame the Knicks. When Toppin was available at 8 (Which he was not projected to be), I wanted him as well and thought you had to pick him. The shiny object got us again. Think it is a good lesson for the draft. Always best to have multiple chances instead of just one that relies on an overhyped 18-year-old. As you just never know how they will translate on to the NBA.
Btw. for those thinking the draft is the way going forward, they may want to look at teams that have consistently had lottery picks the last 10 years and see how they are doing. Then look at the NEts and Lakers and see how they are doing. While I agree that the draft is the way some teams need to rebuild, it is also important to note that the very good teams make free agent moves that keep them competing for chips. Even if they have to give up those prized fan hopefuls. Think we are are that stage. And yes, it is a scary stage.
Unless your in the top 5 you shouldn’t be thinking game changer.
You can get lucky and get a game changer at any draft number.
But what you can control is drafting guys you know have a good motor and 1 solid skill set that translates to the pro game.
That’s why currently with pick 12-20 I would go with kispert and a bucket getter. A guy who can get anywhere on the court and attack.
Obviously there are many scenarios we could do like trade all 3 and sunrise and get cade or suggs etc
I’m just giving you the regular route of drafting where we fall 10-20
Nobody thinks about joe Harris carving them up but you need a guy like that on any wining team. Flat out makes his 3s when open. Essential (these snipers quietly change outcomes of the game. Not the big flashy baller)
(If we draft the traditional way this year think about players we can draft that would work well with Iq off the bench)
We will fill our starting lineup with prime time proven stars.
Let’s build a very good bench next.
Also if we are able to get a team of 10 good basketball players with a skill set they be one valuable trading options. We could at some point trade them all for a big 3...
Team building
VDesai wrote:I don't think we know anything about Toppin at this point. He hasn't truly played in a meaningful way yet. There's gonna be a game where someone is injured and he has to play 30 minutes and key mins and we need to see how he responds. When you're not out there every game you don't play instinctually. Quickley came out more aggressive playing his game and is contributing more and it makes us impatient about Toppin. But Toppin was drafted to a position with less opportunity so he hasn't had the chance to come out and play his game.
I think this makes sense but doesn't change the fact that he's playing behind a solid player in his prime and isn't versatile enough to play the 5 or the 3 at this point. I also agree with the poster that said he would likely excel playing in a D'Antoni-type system as he's a rim runner. Watching him camp in the corners for a World B Free arching three which either is all net or all air is defeating. I understand why he was drafted but don't think he will offer much value on this team as long as Randle is the guy. Only thing that makes me hesitate on moving him this early is I remember watching S.Kemp play as a rookie and he had a similar lost style until he learned to slow things down for himself. While Kemp was athletically/physically superior (vs Toppin) - I do see similarities in how they both play too fast and too slow. Hope he figures it out but it will probably be on a different team since we don't play a style that suits his abilities.
