Knicks · Obi Toppin - A 3rd Lottery Bust in a Row (page 3)

God i hope we win tonight so we don't have another half dozen cry in your beer threads tomorrow.

foosballnick wrote:Wait, 3 lottery busts in a row means that RJ is a bust too?

According to the people who know everything

Let’s get over the mistake in the title and realize we have 3 lottery picks that can’t crack the fucking rotation on a 500 team. That’s downright embarrassing.

Last years draft was a 3 person draft. Everyone was picking RJ. Knicks were on auto select. We can all agree he’s special.

Taj Gibson is outplaying our lottery pick. Just let that sink in.

MS wrote:Let's get over the mistake in the title and realize we have 3 lottery picks that can't crack the fucking rotation on a 500 team. That's downright embarrassing.

Last years draft was a 3 person draft. Everyone was picking RJ. Knicks were on auto select. We can all agree he's special.

Taj Gibson is outplaying our lottery pick. Just let that sink in.

To be fair. Obi position is PF where our All-Star is playing. Knox looks to be a PF...so same issue. Frank. I love Frank so I am the wrong person to critique him

KnickDanger wrote:God i hope we win tonight so we don't have another half dozen cry in your beer threads tomorrow.

😆

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi was used to feasting on smaller, slower, players, in college. Now, he has to deal with players who just as big, and just as fast, if not faster. All rooks go through this, might be worse for Obi because he cant just turn on the jets, and get by defenders (with his stride) like he did in college. Gave him a massive case of indecision. Watching Toppin play is watching someone who didnt know how to deal with the speed of the NBA game.

Last couple of games Obi took the initiative. Trying to create off the dribble.

I said this about Frank when he was a rook, and it applies to Obi as well. The only way he's going to get past the indecision, is to do what he has the last couple of games. Keep taking it to the rim (within the flow of the offense) not worrying about how ugly the takes are. Most players dont immediately look like veteran players. There are growing pains. Cant get past them, if you dont go through them. Cant do that playing passive.

Obi being more assertive is the first step in becoming a legit NBA player. Its anybody's guess how far he will go. If he can keep building on the minor progress he's made lately, Toppin might turn out to be a good pick. Too early to say either way. Many good NBA players looked like bad picks their rookie season.

So you just ignored when I posted how he preformed in three consecutive games against three power conference schools. This narrative about Obi feasting on inferior talent is just lazy commentary by people who I would bet anything didn't watch a single A-10 game or a single full game Toppin played in or don't even follow college hoops on any level.

And another thing that gets under my skin is this, other than Haliburton who was available at #8 that's remotely lighting it up right now? In fact, other than the top three picks, is there anybody really lighting it up who we're going to be kicking ourselves for not drafting over Toppin? It's also amusing that so many people are claiming they would've drafted Haliburton now. I don't recall him having THAT much support on this board prior to the draft.

Haliburton was the mock draft selection for a while on must sites. The problem is knicks was also in love with obi...from a basketball and ny marketing perspective....plus Haliburton was extremely thin....Its like our Scouts needs to shift from 90 era to this current era of players. Haliburton is actually built for this era....and obi actually fell to the knicks. In all mocks...obi was going to be selected ahead of us....with obi falling... its hard to pass on a NY local....especially when we passed on arrest and realized that huge mistake. They didn't want to make the same mistake.

blkexec wrote:

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi was used to feasting on smaller, slower, players, in college. Now, he has to deal with players who just as big, and just as fast, if not faster. All rooks go through this, might be worse for Obi because he cant just turn on the jets, and get by defenders (with his stride) like he did in college. Gave him a massive case of indecision. Watching Toppin play is watching someone who didnt know how to deal with the speed of the NBA game.

Last couple of games Obi took the initiative. Trying to create off the dribble.

I said this about Frank when he was a rook, and it applies to Obi as well. The only way he's going to get past the indecision, is to do what he has the last couple of games. Keep taking it to the rim (within the flow of the offense) not worrying about how ugly the takes are. Most players dont immediately look like veteran players. There are growing pains. Cant get past them, if you dont go through them. Cant do that playing passive.

Obi being more assertive is the first step in becoming a legit NBA player. Its anybody's guess how far he will go. If he can keep building on the minor progress he's made lately, Toppin might turn out to be a good pick. Too early to say either way. Many good NBA players looked like bad picks their rookie season.

So you just ignored when I posted how he preformed in three consecutive games against three power conference schools. This narrative about Obi feasting on inferior talent is just lazy commentary by people who I would bet anything didn't watch a single A-10 game or a single full game Toppin played in or don't even follow college hoops on any level.

And another thing that gets under my skin is this, other than Haliburton who was available at #8 that's remotely lighting it up right now? In fact, other than the top three picks, is there anybody really lighting it up who we're going to be kicking ourselves for not drafting over Toppin? It's also amusing that so many people are claiming they would've drafted Haliburton now. I don't recall him having THAT much support on this board prior to the draft.

Haliburton was the mock draft selection for a while on must sites. The problem is knicks was also in love with obi...from a basketball and ny marketing perspective....plus Haliburton was extremely thin....Its like our Scouts needs to shift from 90 era to this current era of players. Haliburton is actually built for this era....and obi actually fell to the knicks. In all mocks...obi was going to be selected ahead of us....with obi falling... its hard to pass on a NY local....especially when we passed on arrest and realized that huge mistake. They didn't want to make the same mistake.

Hal's stock dropped pretty much universally in most mock drafts. The thin frame played a part, but it was mainly his shot mechanics and the fear that he rarely, if ever, touches the paint. It's hard to guage those things when a guy is playing against college kids. I mean the Knicks weren't the only teams with those concerns. Hal was slotted as top 5 pick on some boards in the beginning of the season. In fact, he still really doesn't touch the paint as much as you'd like and he's still not that good at creating his shot. Fortunately, he's on a team with the personnel to hide those weaknesses. I think most scouts thought Obi would score better than he has. Part of it is system and part of it is physical. Yes, he's older. But he only grew into that frame recently. Still to early to write him off, given that there was no summer league and the season was kinda rushed. As for Arrest, I think management realized that he would have been a disaster if he stayed in NY. Watch his documentary and you'll understand.

blkexec wrote:

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi was used to feasting on smaller, slower, players, in college. Now, he has to deal with players who just as big, and just as fast, if not faster. All rooks go through this, might be worse for Obi because he cant just turn on the jets, and get by defenders (with his stride) like he did in college. Gave him a massive case of indecision. Watching Toppin play is watching someone who didnt know how to deal with the speed of the NBA game.

Last couple of games Obi took the initiative. Trying to create off the dribble.

I said this about Frank when he was a rook, and it applies to Obi as well. The only way he's going to get past the indecision, is to do what he has the last couple of games. Keep taking it to the rim (within the flow of the offense) not worrying about how ugly the takes are. Most players dont immediately look like veteran players. There are growing pains. Cant get past them, if you dont go through them. Cant do that playing passive.

Obi being more assertive is the first step in becoming a legit NBA player. Its anybody's guess how far he will go. If he can keep building on the minor progress he's made lately, Toppin might turn out to be a good pick. Too early to say either way. Many good NBA players looked like bad picks their rookie season.

So you just ignored when I posted how he preformed in three consecutive games against three power conference schools. This narrative about Obi feasting on inferior talent is just lazy commentary by people who I would bet anything didn't watch a single A-10 game or a single full game Toppin played in or don't even follow college hoops on any level.

And another thing that gets under my skin is this, other than Haliburton who was available at #8 that's remotely lighting it up right now? In fact, other than the top three picks, is there anybody really lighting it up who we're going to be kicking ourselves for not drafting over Toppin? It's also amusing that so many people are claiming they would've drafted Haliburton now. I don't recall him having THAT much support on this board prior to the draft.

Haliburton was the mock draft selection for a while on must sites. The problem is knicks was also in love with obi...from a basketball and ny marketing perspective....plus Haliburton was extremely thin....Its like our Scouts needs to shift from 90 era to this current era of players. Haliburton is actually built for this era....and obi actually fell to the knicks. In all mocks...obi was going to be selected ahead of us....with obi falling... its hard to pass on a NY local....especially when we passed on arrest and realized that huge mistake. They didn't want to make the same mistake.

I'm not talking about the mock drafts, I'm talking about the fans in this forum. Most people who actually watched Haliburton play weren't all that impressed by him. Similar to Lamelo. Everybody wanted him though few actually ever saw him play. So when these Monday Morning draft experts come on here acting like the Knicks blew the obviously selection and they knew who should've been the pick, I think it's pretty bogus.

Similar to everybody claiming they wanted Mitchell instead of Frank. My recollection was most were clamoring for DSJ at the time.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:For the first time this season. Im seeing Obi play more agressive with each game. Taking more chances. Give him time.

. See now this is a reasonable fair response I agree

Great game by Obi. The whining upthread sure didnt age well.

Been saying it all along, Obi just needs to get in a rhythm and that will only come with increased playing time

The only thing I was concerned about with OB was his defense. However his defense has looked pretty solid, he’s not great defensively but he’s not terrible either. His offense is going to come. He already has a pretty solid looking jumpshot and he has Uber athleticism. Once he gets some more reps and adds about 20 pounds of muscle, this kid is going to be destroying people. Fans on this board just need to have patience.

Philc1 wrote:Been saying it all along, Obi just needs to get in a rhythm and that will only come with increased playing time

How does he find that here? You are going to trade Randle because Obi may develop? Obi's talents won't be maximized by this roster or coach. It makes the whole pick a very puzzling selection. The only thing that makes sense is the Knicks were ready to get rid of Randle. They thought he was maxed out potential wise. Then Randle becomes an All Star and now they are stuck with a bench player who doesn't have a lot of positional versatility. The centers on the roster are both rim runners who can't shoot. So Obi is pushed to the perimeter when that's not his game and he struggles. They're better off with a combo forward like Otto Porter on the bench who can give minutes at SF and PF. Tough spot for the front office

Jmpasq wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Been saying it all along, Obi just needs to get in a rhythm and that will only come with increased playing time

How does he find that here? You are going to trade Randle because Obi may develop? Obi's talents won't be maximized by this roster or coach. It makes the whole pick a very puzzling selection. The only thing that makes sense is the Knicks were ready to get rid of Randle. They thought he was maxed out potential wise. Then Randle becomes an All Star and now they are stuck with a bench player who doesn't have a lot of positional versatility. The centers on the roster are both rim runners who can't shoot. So Obi is pushed to the perimeter when that's not his game and he struggles. They're better off with a combo forward like Otto Porter on the bench who can give minutes at SF and PF. Tough spot for the front office

...or that the front office thought Obi was the best talent/prospect available when they picked. You pick the top player on your board regardless of position or need. A lot of teams have been burned doing the opposite. The most famous and glaring example is Portland bypassing Michael Jordan because they already had Jim Paxson and Clyde Drexler.

Welpee wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Been saying it all along, Obi just needs to get in a rhythm and that will only come with increased playing time

How does he find that here? You are going to trade Randle because Obi may develop? Obi's talents won't be maximized by this roster or coach. It makes the whole pick a very puzzling selection. The only thing that makes sense is the Knicks were ready to get rid of Randle. They thought he was maxed out potential wise. Then Randle becomes an All Star and now they are stuck with a bench player who doesn't have a lot of positional versatility. The centers on the roster are both rim runners who can't shoot. So Obi is pushed to the perimeter when that's not his game and he struggles. They're better off with a combo forward like Otto Porter on the bench who can give minutes at SF and PF. Tough spot for the front office

...or that the front office thought Obi was the best talent/prospect available when they picked. You pick the top player on your board regardless of position or need. A lot of teams have been burned doing the opposite. The most famous and glaring example is Portland bypassing Michael Jordan because they already had Jim Paxson and Clyde Drexler.

Different situations. Obi doesn't provide any positional versatility. It's much harder to find minutes for him compared to Haliburton. Knicks could of plugged him in 1-3. A bench wing or combo guard can give you 25-30 minutes off the bench.

Jmpasq wrote:

Welpee wrote:...or that the front office thought Obi was the best talent/prospect available when they picked. You pick the top player on your board regardless of position or need. A lot of teams have been burned doing the opposite. The most famous and glaring example is Portland bypassing Michael Jordan because they already had Jim Paxson and Clyde Drexler.

Different situations. Obi doesn't provide any positional versatility. It's much harder to find minutes for him compared to Haliburton. Knicks could of plugged him in 1-3. A bench wing or combo guard can give you 25-30 minutes off the bench.

Obi was the BPA and our potential all star PF of the future, since Randle at the time was widely regarded as a bust in NY and many of us wanted to trade him (myself included). Did not think Obi would last till #8. Did not think Hali would last to #12 either. And Hali would have meant giving up on Frank and DSJ as our PGs of the future, which at the time was not such an obvious step for many (though lots of mock drafts had us pick Killian Hayes). So Hali over Obi would have been a BPA in any case. I suppose the FO thought that Obi was a better BPA than Hali.

This is all time machine stuff, which means projecting ahead as well as reconsidering. But looking back, I think it is very unlikely we would have picked Quickley later if we had chosen Hali or another PG at 8. So a question for me would be would you prefer Obi and IQ or Halliburton and...?

KnickDanger wrote:This is all time machine stuff, which means projecting ahead as well as reconsidering. But looking back, I think it is very unlikely we would have picked Quickley later if we had chosen Hali or another PG at 8. So a question for me would be would you prefer Obi and IQ or Halliburton and...?

This is a very good point. Especially given that IQ is not all that far behind Hali. Almost the same point average at 2/3 of Hali's playing time. Hali a better 3pt shooter right now and assists-man, but then Sancto probably trusts him more with the ball and runs plays for him.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:This is all time machine stuff, which means projecting ahead as well as reconsidering. But looking back, I think it is very unlikely we would have picked Quickley later if we had chosen Hali or another PG at 8. So a question for me would be would you prefer Obi and IQ or Halliburton and...?

This is a very good point. Especially given that IQ is not all that far behind Hali. Almost the same point average at 2/3 of Hali's playing time. Hali a better 3pt shooter right now and assists-man, but then Sancto probably trusts him more with the ball and runs plays for him.

And we can't know what Halliburton's development would be here. He might be getting Obi's minutes -- or less.

KnickDanger wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:This is all time machine stuff, which means projecting ahead as well as reconsidering. But looking back, I think it is very unlikely we would have picked Quickley later if we had chosen Hali or another PG at 8. So a question for me would be would you prefer Obi and IQ or Halliburton and...?

This is a very good point. Especially given that IQ is not all that far behind Hali. Almost the same point average at 2/3 of Hali's playing time. Hali a better 3pt shooter right now and assists-man, but then Sancto probably trusts him more with the ball and runs plays for him.

And we can't know what Halliburton's development would be here. He might be getting Obi's minutes -- or less.

Only if he under performed and there wasn't an all star replacement for him.

Thibs has given each player a chance to perform. Frank, Knox, Obi (DSJr was that bad).... all give a solid 8-15 games of fairly consistent minutes given the parameters of ~10 man rotation, winning, and performing at a certain level (especially defensively).

Why would Haliburton be any different than IQ? I would guess he would get a LOT of minutes on the NY rotation.

Jmpasq wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Been saying it all along, Obi just needs to get in a rhythm and that will only come with increased playing time

How does he find that here? You are going to trade Randle because Obi may develop? Obi's talents won't be maximized by this roster or coach. It makes the whole pick a very puzzling selection. The only thing that makes sense is the Knicks were ready to get rid of Randle. They thought he was maxed out potential wise. Then Randle becomes an All Star and now they are stuck with a bench player who doesn't have a lot of positional versatility. The centers on the roster are both rim runners who can't shoot. So Obi is pushed to the perimeter when that's not his game and he struggles. They're better off with a combo forward like Otto Porter on the bench who can give minutes at SF and PF. Tough spot for the front office

It took Randle 5 years to develop into what he is now. People here are screaming that Obi is a bust after half a season. The kid obviously has talent and yes I absolutely endorse using Randle as trade bait to get someone like Lonzo or Devin Booker here next offseason

And who were we supposed to draft over Obi? Vassell I wanted but it’s a wash moving forward between he and Obi. Avdija I liked but he has had similar rookie struggles. Halliburton? I’d rather have Quickley.

KnickDanger wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:This is all time machine stuff, which means projecting ahead as well as reconsidering. But looking back, I think it is very unlikely we would have picked Quickley later if we had chosen Hali or another PG at 8. So a question for me would be would you prefer Obi and IQ or Halliburton and...?

This is a very good point. Especially given that IQ is not all that far behind Hali. Almost the same point average at 2/3 of Hali's playing time. Hali a better 3pt shooter right now and assists-man, but then Sancto probably trusts him more with the ball and runs plays for him.

And we can't know what Halliburton's development would be here. He might be getting Obi's minutes -- or less.

We don’t draft Quickley if we take Halliburton at 8. Both are combo guards and Quickley > Halliburton