Knicks · What did Frank do to Thibs? (page 4)
It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Jimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
blkexec wrote:Well....we need Frank against the nets. They kill u on the perimeter.
Thibs resistance to adjust his rotation based on the opponent is killing us. Kyrie is not scoring 40 on Frank. But of course with no Frank, kyrie scores 40, we lose by 2. Come on thibs....we only have 1 lock down guard defender. It was an easy decision. But this is why players love thibs....and fans get frustrated.
blkexec wrote:We got 24 points from our PGS. We play Frank we get zero points, Kyrie only scores 20, we lose by 4 and the guys who all deserve playing time over Frank were like "great."blkexec wrote:Well....we need Frank against the nets. They kill u on the perimeter.Thibs resistance to adjust his rotation based on the opponent is killing us. Kyrie is not scoring 40 on Frank. But of course with no Frank, kyrie scores 40, we lose by 2. Come on thibs....we only have 1 lock down guard defender. It was an easy decision. But this is why players love thibs....and fans get frustrated.
I think Thibs just did the math and opted to play the guys who earned the rotation minutes
Philc1 wrote:not a headscratcher. Frank doesnt score and commits tons of fouls and has not helped the Knicks in any way shape or form. He just hasnt. What is headscratching is why fans think any coach would play Frank right now. Playing Frank is a throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks move. Go look at his game logs this year and tell me when/why/where/how any coach mid-game is gonna pull someone from the rotation for Frank. Stop watching Rudy and follow real sports. When Frank earns it he will get itJimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.
Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.
+1
Or like Julius Randle or somewhat like Ben Simmons. Jeez, the guy has perfected the 0-0 stat line.
ElDrudge Payton and DRose's 24 points say hello.
fishmike wrote:We got 24 points from our PGS. We play Frank we get zero points, Kyrie only scores 20, we lose by 4 and the guys who all deserve playing time over Frank were like "great."I think Thibs just did the math and opted to play the guys who earned the rotation minutes
That doesn't seem the right way to look at it, Thibs wouldn't have played Frank 48 minutes so you'd still get some points from the other PGs. Anyway it's up to Frank to find some consistency on offense and not that Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde act of either looking rather decent or utterly hopeless, any coach will need to know what he can expect from a player game in game out.
Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.
The way Franks's defense has gone this year, Kyrie would have probably fouled Frank out in 10 minutes of play. But he is a good defender. Not opposed to him being brought in against guys like Kyrie. However, fans don't understand that coaches need more than spot-good defense to put the regulars on the bench.
The fact is the Knicks were in control until Randle started missing some in the second half. We go as Randle and our 3pt shooting go. And we need BOTH to be on to beat the good teams. Can say that I was disappointed in the assists from our guards though. Randle's had 12, which is great, but that was more than all of our guards combined (8) Barret with NO assists? It is cool that they are all looking to score but what about some drive and dish?
The Knicks don’t have clear improvements. bench Payton and start Quick brings a different look. Not all of it good. Then there is the second unit that perhaps works worse with Payton. So we can bitch and moan all we want about frank on the bench but he does not bring the answer. Really he seems net neutral. They why not play him? Good question and from what I have seen Payton brings a compromise of good defense and a penetration skill that Thibs prefers. I get it. Don’t love it but Frank is not a PG and IQ seems more concerned about getting someone to bump him from behind and then if doubled he jumps and passes. League has scouted IQ fairly well. Rose is the real deal but his physical limitations are apparent. Otherwise he is still a max player.
Why not make a trade or sign somebody????? Its easy to type this thinking we can fix it with a name.
fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:not a headscratcher. Frank doesnt score and commits tons of fouls and has not helped the Knicks in any way shape or form. He just hasnt. What is headscratching is why fans think any coach would play Frank right now. Playing Frank is a throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks move. Go look at his game logs this year and tell me when/why/where/how any coach mid-game is gonna pull someone from the rotation for Frank. Stop watching Rudy and follow real sports. When Frank earns it he will get itJimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
+100
Frank CAN be a very good one-on-one defender and he has displayed this on short occasion or even a long burst BUT it's just not adding up this year.
Nalod wrote:Franks defense has kept him in the league and is legit. That he is still rostered says something. I just don’t know what it says.
The Knicks don’t have clear improvements. bench Payton and start Quick brings a different look. Not all of it good. Then there is the second unit that perhaps works worse with Payton. So we can bitch and moan all we want about frank on the bench but he does not bring the answer. Really he seems net neutral. They why not play him? Good question and from what I have seen Payton brings a compromise of good defense and a penetration skill that Thibs prefers. I get it. Don’t love it but Frank is not a PG and IQ seems more concerned about getting someone to bump him from behind and then if doubled he jumps and passes. League has scouted IQ fairly well. Rose is the real deal but his physical limitations are apparent. Otherwise he is still a max player.
Why not make a trade or sign somebody????? Its easy to type this thinking we can fix it with a name.
Yes. For me, IQ has a long way to go before he is even a legit PG off the bench no less starting. Good start as offense and looking for defender to foul him are qualities you need but he is absolutely lacking in running an offense or knowing what do to. He has a lot of room to grow. I don't think he will start next year either unless it is a dire situation with injury.
Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.
I respectfully disagree....AND....this is coming from someone who advocates trading Frank. I was never a huge fan. But one thing is VERY clear. Frank is the best 1 on 1 guard defender on the roster. Right now Payton is ahead of him, and I rather have Franks defense instead.
Now back to offense, since that's your discussion point. I rather have Franks willingness to shoot and recently we have seen hit from outside the paint. Frank is a better shooter than Payton.
So yes, on this team, Frank is our Gary Payton.
And yes, on this team, Frank is a better floor spacer than our starting PG.
Not sure why there's so much hate on Frank. And Im not even a Frank fan. But I am a fan of players that play defense.
FYI....Lockdown defender went out the door when hand checking rule was changed. But compared to the other options on the team, Frank is the better defender. If you disagree, let me know who's better on this roster? I'm open to your coaching suggestions.
martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:not a headscratcher. Frank doesnt score and commits tons of fouls and has not helped the Knicks in any way shape or form. He just hasnt. What is headscratching is why fans think any coach would play Frank right now. Playing Frank is a throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks move. Go look at his game logs this year and tell me when/why/where/how any coach mid-game is gonna pull someone from the rotation for Frank. Stop watching Rudy and follow real sports. When Frank earns it he will get itJimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
+100
Frank CAN be a very good one-on-one defender and he has displayed this on short occasion or even a long burst BUT it's just not adding up this year.
Thibs will stick with his rotation, regardless of the matchups. But just my opinion, I think we win the game against the Nets, if Kyrie had more of Franks defense on him than Payton. I also think Frank spreads the floor more than Payton. But hey, I'm not the coach, Thibs is. And what he says goes. I'm just a fan with some basketball experience.
If we not going to play our best 1 on 1 defender, then trade him for another 1 on 1 defender Thibs will play. I don't care what his name is. But we needed a defensive minded player on Kyrie. Payton used to be known for that, but I've seen his defense slip over time.
blkexec wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:not a headscratcher. Frank doesnt score and commits tons of fouls and has not helped the Knicks in any way shape or form. He just hasnt. What is headscratching is why fans think any coach would play Frank right now. Playing Frank is a throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks move. Go look at his game logs this year and tell me when/why/where/how any coach mid-game is gonna pull someone from the rotation for Frank. Stop watching Rudy and follow real sports. When Frank earns it he will get itJimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
+100
Frank CAN be a very good one-on-one defender and he has displayed this on short occasion or even a long burst BUT it's just not adding up this year.
Thibs will stick with his rotation, regardless of the matchups. But just my opinion, I think we win the game against the Nets, if Kyrie had more of Franks defense on him than Payton. I also think Frank spreads the floor more than Payton. But hey, I'm not the coach, Thibs is. And what he says goes. I'm just a fan with some basketball experience.
If we not going to play our best 1 on 1 defender, then trade him for another 1 on 1 defender Thibs will play. I don't care what his name is. But we needed a defensive minded player on Kyrie. Payton used to be known for that, but I've seen his defense slip over time.
Frank is a better individual defender (when he doesn't over commit which has been often this season) and a better, more active team defender. He is absolutely a better long distance shooter and a much poorer player going to the rim. Frank does not play with purpose IMHO and I don't even know how to 100% quantify that; he is just out there moving around and making passes as if they were pre-designed and not really looking at what the defense is giving.
You want to give Frank Elf's minutes.... so start Frank? Elf only played 22 minutes, so also cut into DRose or IQ minutes? Play Frank with a 4 PG rotation? Is that really feasible for a coach?
Play Frank when and how?
blkexec wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:Philc1 wrote:not a headscratcher. Frank doesnt score and commits tons of fouls and has not helped the Knicks in any way shape or form. He just hasnt. What is headscratching is why fans think any coach would play Frank right now. Playing Frank is a throw shit on the wall and see if it sticks move. Go look at his game logs this year and tell me when/why/where/how any coach mid-game is gonna pull someone from the rotation for Frank. Stop watching Rudy and follow real sports. When Frank earns it he will get itJimbo5 wrote:KD is out, Harden got injured, this game was winnable! Then, Kyrie scored 40pts against Payton, Rose and Burks. Not giving Frank the opportunity to try to lockdown Kyrie is just a head scratcher. The coaching staff should have included Frank in their gameplan. They know to expect zero offense from frank, why not work around it. Atleast give him a chance to limit Kyrie's production.It seems Thibs is resisting from making any big adjustments to his rotation. He has a defensive lockdown player at his disposal but is not willing to use him. This is why i think they are having a hard time beating teams with better records than the knicks.
After beating the bucks very early in the season it seems like the knicks havent won a game against the higher teir teams. Thibs is ready to live and die with Payton and Rose and the Knicks keep falling short as a result.
Insanity- doing things over and over again expecting a different outcome!
Same old same old. Every PG will continue to kill us until BOTH Payton and Rose get injured
+100
Frank CAN be a very good one-on-one defender and he has displayed this on short occasion or even a long burst BUT it's just not adding up this year.
Thibs will stick with his rotation, regardless of the matchups. But just my opinion, I think we win the game against the Nets, if Kyrie had more of Franks defense on him than Payton. I also think Frank spreads the floor more than Payton. But hey, I'm not the coach, Thibs is. And what he says goes. I'm just a fan with some basketball experience.
If we not going to play our best 1 on 1 defender, then trade him for another 1 on 1 defender Thibs will play. I don't care what his name is. But we needed a defensive minded player on Kyrie. Payton used to be known for that, but I've seen his defense slip over time.
Kyrie is who he is because he can't really be stop by any one player.
We don't lose games because we can't defend, we lose games because we stop playing team ball in the clutch, we have very little offense from the Center position, and our rebounding is avg at best.
frank does not solve any of our major concerns
Elf will also know when to attacks he rim and finish stronger then Frank.
Until frank finds his offensive acumen and is comfortable with it he won’t be consistent.
At age 22 its still possible. But it might not be as a Knick given his contract or what he deems as an opportunity going forward.
Maybe Utah calls, or Pop calls and outlines a 3 year process/commitment at 4-5 mil a year were Thibs is thinking more like Larry Brown and wants guys that can play NOW. No right or wrong, but frank gotta go were he has a chance.
Or........
Thibs whispers sweet nothings in his ear and outlines his path with the similar money. Thibs is a lot of things but all but Pinson and Iggy got a fair crack at the rotation and the team lockeroom is solid from what we know.
ramtour420 wrote:Frank is the type of player that needs an offensive system where there is ball movement and sets to run. His best was under Miller, the only coach after MDA that had an offensive system. He was drafted to be in offensive system. Thibs focking system is ISO ball where the ball handler can break down his man and then dish or score. See Rose as an MVP when he was breaking all sorts of ankles. Basically non winning type of offense. Mike Woodsons offense. Larry Browns offense. It's only effective when you have a guard that can penetrate. Ariza was also very lost back then under Brown for similar reasons. As soon as Frank goes to a team with an offensive system he instantly becomes Most Improved Player candidate.
I agree with you. Tibs offense is eerily similar to what JVG ran with Houston and Spree a lot of iso ball. Low scoring affairs. Frank was doing well under Miller and mind you so was Knox. RJ and Mitchell got good development time under Miller. The three ball helps and Frank can hit it. But the problem is with Frank and he lacks aggression. Not sure system can change Franks game anymore.
HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:Truth of the matter is that Frank is very much like Julius Randle in that the fans have a pre-conceived love or hate relationship with him as a player.The criticism, much like that being slung against Ben Simmons in Philly, is all about offense and aggressiveness. The positive aspects of their games are diminished or ignored and the developmental aspect of their game is magnified. He's all of 22 years old and has suffered the expectations of numerous coaches and their eclectic goals.
The point of the conversation is that we, as fans, have had to sit through numerous games in which Peyton, Bullock, and others simply don't have it and it shows in the second and third quarters. This is not about *giving Ntilikina a chance*, its about coaching to game time situations where any change up in the stinking status quo might help.
NOBODY is expecting Frankie to suddenly turn into Lebron James as some of you snark at. But can he give you spot minutes to stop the bleeding or turn the tide? Is *THAT* so unimaginable?
He's a talented guy. Use what you got.
Or maybe more Elf will somehow turn into a scoring machine.
Frankie will be fine. And when he is there will be pissing and moaning. In the meantime, how about winning games? Or at least making them watchable.
-snip-
Some said he could not score to save his life. They were right.Most are now just finally saying four years of "I think he can turn it around" is just too much. Like all Knick fans, I wanted the kid to prove me wrong. I think he has improved his shot and can be much better. But as I said in my first post ever about the kid, he just does not have "IT", "It" being that alpha mentality that allows these young kids to be fearless, play with confidence, and want to attack at all times. Things needed to make it in NBA. Especially in NY.
Frankie can and does score. He simply hasn't found a consistency of what anyone can expect. This is not profoundly different from many of the players on this team.
"The kid" is still well within the typical learning curve of the average rotation NBA PG trajectory. In many aspects of his game he's ahead of the curve. His inability to carry the team on offense [because for years the other four on the floor were so pathetic] is and continues to be the loud, obnoxious criticism. True but not necessarily fair - he wasn't drafted as such and isn't *that*.
'IT' comes with maturity. And Frankie was often on the floor with Obie when Obie was a lost soul and others whose shot selection was suspect at best - not an excuse but Frankie's minutes aren't the warm and fuzzy minutes of the untouchables in Thibs' short rotations.
I'm not looking for Frankie to "turn" anything around. He improves with every season -not to your satisfaction but he has made it in the NBA and will play for years.
There's no excuse NOT to sic him on the Kyries of the NBA world, that's his wheelhouse and anyone with a lick of sense can see and has seen it. Frankie shines when playing against the best. It's only then you can disambiguate his contributions distinctly.