MS wrote:He’s the toughest guy to gauge. His shooting has really improved, they run the offense through Zion like we do through Randle, but Ingram is always dribbling so that takes away his creativity.
But, imagine the easy buckets he could get Obi and Mitch. You don’t have to give up anything for him and he’s young enough to improve.
But if we sign him to a big deal and he doesn’t work out we are pretty much stuck in the middle of the road.
Lonzo is such a hard one for me. He is a huge improvement at PG in so many places but his weaknesses mirror ours as a team. If we sign him we MUST also sign a SG who can flat out score, shoot and break down the defense. It is like you have to use a scale to weigh the positives and the fact that he wont help some of our major weaknesses.
You have to weigh more fastbreak pts from the young knicks.
More easy baskets from Obi and Mitch through lobs.
Better 3pt shooting from the PG position.
vs
Still having the same weaknesses that got exposed in the playoffs.
The around 20mil price tag it will take to sign him from the Pelicans.
The perfect situation for me would be that Zach Levine starts making noise that he wants to get traded. If we could trade for him that would make Signing Lonzo a no brainer. Then I think both together with Rose and IQ off the bench solves our Guard problems for a long time. RJ, and Burks or Bullock off the bench is good enough for SF. Our team would be much more balanced and it would solve a lot of our problems.
Clean wrote:MS wrote:He’s the toughest guy to gauge. His shooting has really improved, they run the offense through Zion like we do through Randle, but Ingram is always dribbling so that takes away his creativity.
But, imagine the easy buckets he could get Obi and Mitch. You don’t have to give up anything for him and he’s young enough to improve.
But if we sign him to a big deal and he doesn’t work out we are pretty much stuck in the middle of the road.
Lonzo is such a hard one for me. He is a huge improvement at PG in so many places but his weaknesses mirror ours as a team. If we sign him we MUST also sign a SG who can flat out score, shoot and break down the defense. It is like you have to use a scale to weigh the positives and the fact that he wont help some of our major weaknesses.
You have to weigh more fastbreak pts from the young knicks.
More easy baskets from Obi and Mitch through lobs.
Better 3pt shooting from the PG position.
vs
Still having the same weaknesses that got exposed in the playoffs.
The around 20mil price tag it will take to sign him from the Pelicans.
The perfect situation for me would be that Zach Levine starts making noise that he wants to get traded. If we could trade for him that would make Signing Lonzo a no brainer. Then I think both together with Rose and IQ off the bench solves our Guard problems for a long time. RJ, and Burks or Bullock off the bench is good enough for SF. Our team would be much more balanced and it would solve a lot of our problems.
Lavine will come at a very heavy price and we really don’t know how or if our FO covets him. Lonzo is a tough read because its about what he can become not what he has been. At the same time its important perhaps we not win getting him by paying him more than Nola. I’d rather find a trade. for instance does our 21st pick given them enough to be happy. Him at 23 does he still have upside and think his career is better here at say 20mm then playing elsewhere for 25mm per? Money matters. but so does perhaps getting a second contract at age 28 and an established player. If we want him doe we think there is more to unlock?
its one thing to pay full retail for Lavine but you lose assets. Beal next year is and should be in the back of our minds but he will eat a lot of cap.
So a guy like Derozen at 31 and healthy dude as free agent might not be a massive game changer but your not burning assets.
Our coach will only want but so many prospects on the team. All things the same (won’t stay that way) obi, knox and IQ are rostered and we have 3 picks this year. I doubt we roll with that. If Ball is a gym rat and wants here I’d burn the 21st pick easy for Ball and of course throw in Knox unless Aller can figure out a path of working his way up the draft using three picks. I don’t know how that would work.
And for all we know Thibs and staff might be penciled in Knox as a keeper as they are rebuilding him for next season.
Nalod wrote:Clean wrote:MS wrote:He’s the toughest guy to gauge. His shooting has really improved, they run the offense through Zion like we do through Randle, but Ingram is always dribbling so that takes away his creativity.
But, imagine the easy buckets he could get Obi and Mitch. You don’t have to give up anything for him and he’s young enough to improve.
But if we sign him to a big deal and he doesn’t work out we are pretty much stuck in the middle of the road.
Lonzo is such a hard one for me. He is a huge improvement at PG in so many places but his weaknesses mirror ours as a team. If we sign him we MUST also sign a SG who can flat out score, shoot and break down the defense. It is like you have to use a scale to weigh the positives and the fact that he wont help some of our major weaknesses.
You have to weigh more fastbreak pts from the young knicks.
More easy baskets from Obi and Mitch through lobs.
Better 3pt shooting from the PG position.
vs
Still having the same weaknesses that got exposed in the playoffs.
The around 20mil price tag it will take to sign him from the Pelicans.
The perfect situation for me would be that Zach Levine starts making noise that he wants to get traded. If we could trade for him that would make Signing Lonzo a no brainer. Then I think both together with Rose and IQ off the bench solves our Guard problems for a long time. RJ, and Burks or Bullock off the bench is good enough for SF. Our team would be much more balanced and it would solve a lot of our problems.
Lavine will come at a very heavy price and we really don’t know how or if our FO covets him. Lonzo is a tough read because its about what he can become not what he has been. At the same time its important perhaps we not win getting him by paying him more than Nola. I’d rather find a trade. for instance does our 21st pick given them enough to be happy. Him at 23 does he still have upside and think his career is better here at say 20mm then playing elsewhere for 25mm per? Money matters. but so does perhaps getting a second contract at age 28 and an established player. If we want him doe we think there is more to unlock?
its one thing to pay full retail for Lavine but you lose assets. Beal next year is and should be in the back of our minds but he will eat a lot of cap.
So a guy like Derozen at 31 and healthy dude as free agent might not be a massive game changer but your not burning assets.
Our coach will only want but so many prospects on the team. All things the same (won’t stay that way) obi, knox and IQ are rostered and we have 3 picks this year. I doubt we roll with that. If Ball is a gym rat and wants here I’d burn the 21st pick easy for Ball and of course throw in Knox unless Aller can figure out a path of working his way up the draft using three picks. I don’t know how that would work.
And for all we know Thibs and staff might be penciled in Knox as a keeper as they are rebuilding him for next season.
Lavine is UFA after next season. If we can’t get Lonzo this summer we go after Lavine next year. Hopefully we can bring Lowry in here on a one year deal in the meantime
franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
If we still had Mike Miller, I could see drafting a PG and trying that out. I just don't think Thibs can live with that.
I'm mindful of cap space, and maybe Cameron Payne is a better bet than Ball, all things considered.
But Ball, warts and all, has proven he can play at the NBA level. He has shown some elements of what we need from a PG and you have to look at other options.
I think where this team is, vis a vis Dolan, FO, Coach- taking a step back is not an option- and I don't think they'll be happy, though I and maybe Briggs would be, adding Payne and Naz Reid in the off season
TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
I'm not saying pass on Lonzo because he is an absolutely great option, perfect in a lot of ways. If i'm looking at alternatives, i see Lowry stand out in free agency and a lesser but underrated option in Devonte Graham. Via trade i see Sexton, Brunson, and Brogdon, all of which might be had for some combination of 2021 draft picks and maybe a current young player on the roster. They all happen to be CAA clients too, which will always increase the chance of them coming here.
Knixkik wrote:TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
I'm not saying pass on Lonzo because he is an absolutely great option, perfect in a lot of ways. If i'm looking at alternatives, i see Lowry stand out in free agency and a lesser but underrated option in Devonte Graham. Via trade i see Sexton, Brunson, and Brogdon, all of which might be had for some combination of 2021 draft picks and maybe a current young player on the roster. They all happen to be CAA clients too, which will always increase the chance of them coming here.
I really like Devonte Graham on this team. He seems like a great fit. His true shooting percentage is above 5O% which is incredible, his assist to turnover ratio is I've 3to1 which is elite and he is great at PnR( was one of the best in college) even tho I cannot find the stats in the NBA. He would be perfect. Has improved his 3point shot every year in the league.
franco12 wrote:TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
If we still had Mike Miller, I could see drafting a PG and trying that out. I just don't think Thibs can live with that.
I'm mindful of cap space, and maybe Cameron Payne is a better bet than Ball, all things considered.
But Ball, warts and all, has proven he can play at the NBA level. He has shown some elements of what we need from a PG and you have to look at other options.
I think where this team is, vis a vis Dolan, FO, Coach- taking a step back is not an option- and I don't think they'll be happy, though I and maybe Briggs would be, adding Payne and Naz Reid in the off season
I don't even know what this means.
Thibs can't live with what? PGs? A young PG? He will have Luca and Rose at a min. After that we don't know who the Knicks will draft or sign.
Thibs has shown that he likes players that produce at a certain level and will play rookies in the rotation. Same as every other coach
martin wrote:franco12 wrote:TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
If we still had Mike Miller, I could see drafting a PG and trying that out. I just don't think Thibs can live with that.
I'm mindful of cap space, and maybe Cameron Payne is a better bet than Ball, all things considered.
But Ball, warts and all, has proven he can play at the NBA level. He has shown some elements of what we need from a PG and you have to look at other options.
I think where this team is, vis a vis Dolan, FO, Coach- taking a step back is not an option- and I don't think they'll be happy, though I and maybe Briggs would be, adding Payne and Naz Reid in the off season
I don't even know what this means.
Thibs can't live with what? PGs? A young PG? He will have Luca and Rose at a min. After that we don't know who the Knicks will draft or sign.
Thibs has shown that he likes players that produce at a certain level and will play rookies in the rotation. Same as every other coach
I don't see Thibs putting up with the growing pains of a rookie PG- maybe someone like Ja Morant, but not any of the players we'll be able to pick with our mid round spots.
Add that to our FO & Owner, and there is no way I see us just drafting the best available PG and rolling with that to see if they can develop into a reliable NBA player.
franco12 wrote:martin wrote:franco12 wrote:TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
If we still had Mike Miller, I could see drafting a PG and trying that out. I just don't think Thibs can live with that.
I'm mindful of cap space, and maybe Cameron Payne is a better bet than Ball, all things considered.
But Ball, warts and all, has proven he can play at the NBA level. He has shown some elements of what we need from a PG and you have to look at other options.
I think where this team is, vis a vis Dolan, FO, Coach- taking a step back is not an option- and I don't think they'll be happy, though I and maybe Briggs would be, adding Payne and Naz Reid in the off season
I don't even know what this means.
Thibs can't live with what? PGs? A young PG? He will have Luca and Rose at a min. After that we don't know who the Knicks will draft or sign.
Thibs has shown that he likes players that produce at a certain level and will play rookies in the rotation. Same as every other coach
I don't see Thibs putting up with the growing pains of a rookie PG- maybe someone like Ja Morant, but not any of the players we'll be able to pick with our mid round spots.
Add that to our FO & Owner, and there is no way I see us just drafting the best available PG and rolling with that to see if they can develop into a reliable NBA player.
Still trying to clarify your points.
Are you saying you don't see Thib handing the keys to a rookie ready or not and giving him major minutes regardless of his performance? Basically, if he's playing poorly just keep riding him based on the theory that the experience will make him better down the road even if it costs us wins? If that's what you're saying, I don't blame Thib for not doing that.
I think based on the Quickley template (and how he played other rookies in the past), if Thibs feels a rookie deserves to be in the rotation, he'll play him. I don't see him as one of those "I hate rookies" coaches.
TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.
See what emerges in the draft process.
See if there are any value bargains in Tier 4 and Tier 5 of free agency
There are lots of alternatives to giving up assets to make a trade and then giving a guy a huge contract.
Can one of those late first round picks give you 50 percent of Ball's production? That might not seem like a lot, but consider the difference is trade assets ( very likely picks) and then a huge contract ( killing cap space to do anything else)
Or we can simply do both. sign Ball and draft a guy like Josh Giddey
To me, Lonzo is this decade's Amaré. Not really the guy we want nor would he ever be considered a perfect fit. However, we have money that's burning a hole in our corporate pockets and a lot of roster flexibility so we'll go all in for him.
I'd have to pass. I freely admit that I don't have an option that immediately presents itself that would be any better. So...Amaré II here we come. 
WP76 wrote:To me, Lonzo is this decade's Amaré. Not really the guy we want nor would he ever be considered a perfect fit. However, we have money that's burning a hole in our corporate pockets and a lot of roster flexibility so we'll go all in for him.I'd have to pass. I freely admit that I don't have an option that immediately presents itself that would be any better. So...Amaré II here we come.
He is exactly the type of player we need. The problem is Knick fans have a hard on for cap space and aren't willing to offer the amount of money it would take to sign him.
Thats why we see so many suggestions for band-aids like Lowly or players that haven't proven that they can start in the NBA like Payne, because they will be cheaper
Swishfm3 wrote:WP76 wrote:To me, Lonzo is this decade's Amaré. Not really the guy we want nor would he ever be considered a perfect fit. However, we have money that's burning a hole in our corporate pockets and a lot of roster flexibility so we'll go all in for him.I'd have to pass. I freely admit that I don't have an option that immediately presents itself that would be any better. So...Amaré II here we come.
He is exactly the type of player we need. The problem is Knick fans have a hard on for cap space and aren't willing to offer the amount of money it would take to sign him.
Thats why we see so many suggestions for band-aids like Lowly or players that haven't proven that they can start in the NBA like Payne, because they will be cheaper
Actually I think Knick fans have seen decisions like this blow up in our face in the past and are probably extra cautious because they've witnessed how hard it is to recover from bad signings.
Philc1 wrote:franco12 wrote:Anyone saying pass on Lonzo should offer an alternative.If we can add him without breaking the bank, he is potentially a nice third start player to add to RJ & Randle.
Add him to the Knicks against the Hawks, I think we come out ahead.
I'm sure he can develop his P&R game.
The alternatives are Lowry, who is 35, on a multi year deal or bring back Elf/Rose
Schroder and Conley are better options for likely less money. Ball for $100 just sucks. He shoots lots of 3s and thats it. He shoots jumpers. He never gets to the line. He doesnt attack or put any pressure on the D. He's a good role player, good passer/defender. Nothing about Lonzo so far has said he's going to be a top PG, so lets avoid paying like a top PG when he's not even the best on the board.
Kendrick Nunn is another option. CP3 may opt out if you want to spend (might actually make sense)
No to Ball. Rather hand Thibs Jared Butler, Luka, Rose and IQ and spend money on guys with higher impact. If we cant get a guard who can legit break down the D and move the ball then work on development.
I think Ball depends on if we’re trying to grow something or trying to win right away
I really like the idea of Lakers castoffs growing together here
I also really like the idea of Lowry/Rose for 48 minutes… which one I like more depends on how the rest of the team is built
Lavar can ride out on a horse named JANIS.............
Swishfm3 wrote: The problem is Knick fans have a hard on for cap space and aren't willing to offer the amount of money it would take to sign him.
Lonzo Ball is a Restricted Free Agent. Situations like this often turn into a Sign And Trade. So that would mean the loss of some other kind of asset, probably a draft pick or draft picks.
So it's not just Lonzo Ball, it's his Full Bird Rights and draft assets the Knicks can't afford to lose right now as well on the table
Philc1 wrote:
Or we can simply do both. sign Ball and draft a guy like Josh Giddey
Ball is a RFA and will cost a draft pick or draft picks to facilitate a Sign And Trade. So no, odds are, you can't do both. While the Knicks have extra draft picks the next few years, they don't have enough picks to go pushing a Sign And Trade and still keep adding draftees to help the holes in the roster. This year was successful but it was built on older veterans who could all leave and there are young drafted players like Knox and Frank N who have busted and won't help this team long term.
The Knicks can't afford to trade off draft picks. And that's what the Pelicans would want, draft picks.
I think Luca could do more for this team than Lonzo. I think Devonte Graham could do more for this team than Lonzo.
TripleThreat wrote:Philc1 wrote:
Or we can simply do both. sign Ball and draft a guy like Josh Giddey
Ball is a RFA and will cost a draft pick or draft picks to facilitate a Sign And Trade. So no, odds are, you can't do both. While the Knicks have extra draft picks the next few years, they don't have enough picks to go pushing a Sign And Trade and still keep adding draftees to help the holes in the roster. This year was successful but it was built on older veterans who could all leave and there are young drafted players like Knox and Frank N who have busted and won't help this team long term.
The Knicks can't afford to trade off draft picks. And that's what the Pelicans would want, draft picks.
We have 4 first rd picks next 2 years. We have the trade bait to get Lonzo and still draft
Lonzo is 23. Trading a pick or 2 for him is essentially like drafting a young player
