Knicks · The Elfred appreciation thread....... (page 2)

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

martin wrote:And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

All of this while forgetting we were projected to only win 20 something games this season.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

If I was on a computer I would enjoy replying to each phrase you eloquently broke down. It's hard to understand if you are suggesting we should keep Payton at PG next season or not. Do you agree he should be replaced this summer? My reply will only go down 1 of my 2 assumptions.

So let's assume you are against Payton returning as our starting pg. Then we agree there. If not, I'm curious 🤔 why?

Where we disagree maybe is when I thought Payton should've been replaced, if he's going to get replaced at all.....vs what thibs did is replace him in the playoffs. If u disagree with this, I would love to hear your reply.

If we agree on that too...then you grossly misunderstood my post. 😃

Game 2 Elf played 0 minutes in the second half when we had our comeback

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

Elf just sucks. He’s a bad fit anywhere. Literally the only thing he does well is dribble.

If he and Rose are both back next season we probably don’t even make the playoffs. This is Raymond Felton all over again we must move on

BigDaddyG wrote:My appreciation for Elfrid Payton begins and end with the fact I don't have to talk about no more. Also, he shielded Knox and Frank from the usual amount of hate they've gotten the past two years. He's the ringer we needed to make Luka's debut more spectacular.

Even better than not talking about him anymore, is the fact that we don't have to see him in the blue and orange anymore

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

If I was on a computer I would enjoy replying to each phrase you eloquently broke down. It's hard to understand if you are suggesting we should keep Payton at PG next season or not. Do you agree he should be replaced this summer? My reply will only go down 1 of my 2 assumptions.

So let's assume you are against Payton returning as our starting pg. Then we agree there. If not, I'm curious 🤔 why?

Where we disagree maybe is when I thought Payton should've been replaced, if he's going to get replaced at all.....vs what thibs did is replace him in the playoffs. If u disagree with this, I would love to hear your reply.

If we agree on that too...then you grossly misunderstood my post. 😃

Literally no one on the planet thinks Payton should return next year. Seems as if you are talking about this past season but perhaps it was the perspective of what should for next year? I just don't understand any of what you are saying quite frankly.

To your second point, I question the hindsight (and maybe it's not from you) look at saying Payton should have been replaced earlier in the season. When? And what would have been the realities of changing the dynamic of the team and rotations and offense/defense that would have made the change worthwhile?

I won’t demonize him either.

He was a serviceable PG that seemingly grew sour and moved away from his strengths, mainly his passing, as time went on. He had a few great games, so he was a significant part of our success story. I don’t know what happened in practices with Thibs and the rest of the team, but he seemingly grew apart from them. Responsibility is probably shared by many, but he should be responsible for playing selfishly during his last months with the team.

Vanishing him in the playoffs proved a bad decision by Thibs, but it reflects more on the need of a starting PG that can maximize backup Rose than losing anything from Payton, because even his defense took a hit.

All in all, thanks for the few good games and thanks for the steady PG play early in his Knicks tenure. Hope you get another chance with a team and your love for the game becomes evident again.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

I literally don't understand any of the bolded statements.

"lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint." Are you talking first half of year versus second? Cause the Knicks surely had plenty of consistent shooters. In fact they had enough of them to be considered one of the best spacing shooting teams in the league near the end. You have three 40% 3 point shooters, a center who is hidden in the dunking position and then Payton for starting lineup.

"Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread." And I don't get the qualification that you ALSO need either 4 or 5 shooters just to have enough paint room. No team has that. And there are only a few C's in the league that can space the 5. And I don't know who you consider the SF who is just a slasher and not a shooter? Bullock started at SF and the Knicks used a 3 guard rotation of Burks, IQ, Rose off bench.

"I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness." How do you qualify this? Payton just stopped making shots he previously hit and was lackadaisical on D. Payton exposed Payton.

"Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs." On one hand Thibs over performed and needed until the VERY LAST GAME OF THE YEAR to get the 4th seed but you wanted him to perhaps change the lineup much sooner WHEN THEY WERE WINNING THE MOST GAMES IN THE LEAGUE during a 3 week stretch? That takes a lot to swallow. Thibs (and all of us) could already SEE the adjustment as Elf's minutes declined and Rose's increased. Otherwise, what are the viable options? And what impact would those changes have had on the last weeks or month of the games? Are you suggesting that during a historic game winning run the coach should have out smarted himself and thought about what *MAY* happen during the playoffs?

If I was on a computer I would enjoy replying to each phrase you eloquently broke down. It's hard to understand if you are suggesting we should keep Payton at PG next season or not. Do you agree he should be replaced this summer? My reply will only go down 1 of my 2 assumptions.

So let's assume you are against Payton returning as our starting pg. Then we agree there. If not, I'm curious 🤔 why?

Where we disagree maybe is when I thought Payton should've been replaced, if he's going to get replaced at all.....vs what thibs did is replace him in the playoffs. If u disagree with this, I would love to hear your reply.

If we agree on that too...then you grossly misunderstood my post. 😃

Literally no one on the planet thinks Payton should return next year. Seems as if you are talking about this past season but perhaps it was the perspective of what should for next year? I just don't understand any of what you are saying quite frankly.

To your second point, I question the hindsight (and maybe it's not from you) look at saying Payton should have been replaced earlier in the season. When? And what would have been the realities of changing the dynamic of the team and rotations and offense/defense that would have made the change worthwhile?

Yep.. you mis understood my position. All good. But I'll say this again, if Thibs is going to replace Payton at all, don't replace him in the playoffs, it's too late and too risky of a move, which is now clear to everyone. Granted most people approved the move since Rose came in second half and saved the game. But Rose did this all season. Thibs had plenty of times to experiment with Payton starting or coming off the bench. That's all I'm saying.

When could he have removed Payton during the season you asked? I don't know. I'm not looking that deep into last season anymore. Im just appreciating Payton for coming in and doing what he's been known for,, while not being a locker room problem... But there was opportunities better than in the playoffs, to experiment. That was a desperation move that most fans and the media was pushing.

Im sure u approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs. It's hard to find people to admit it now of course. I will admit it. But I'm not the coach making millions. Thibs gets paid for these decisions and I fault him for that decision and adding fault to his non decision during the season, when it was clear that Payton started to check out. Was inconsistent, team played better with him on the bench...the signs was there. Thibs waited too long to finally do something he wanted to do earlier, probably after seeing Rose and IQ impact on the floor. He tried it once with Burks who's a SG. That's a negative on Thibs as well. Even i wasn't for that move. And he quickly went back to Payton. Did Frank ever start? Thibs just appeared a little too loyal to Payton starting, eventhough he rarely saw the second half. What's the pt in that when we have other PGs on the roster outside of Rose to experiment with...Burks is not a PG.

Again, thank you Payton for being who you are. I don't think he's a starter in the nba anymore, but i could be wrong....on a new team with different players around him he could excel.. depending on the system and space on the floor. Maybe an up and down west coast system works better than a half court 1990s thibs offensive system. 🤔

Philc1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

Elf just sucks. He’s a bad fit anywhere. Literally the only thing he does well is dribble.

If he and Rose are both back next season we probably don’t even make the playoffs. This is Raymond Felton all over again we must move on

Raymond Felton wasn’t bad. Just a tad overweight lol

He had a nice 18 foot jumper

Probably top 3 pgs of the decade lol for us before this year

xblvdels3 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:As much as I talked bad about Payton....I appreciate how professional he was with his demotion without being a locker room cancer. This has nothing to do with Payton. But more to do with fit. Payton is an old dog not willing to learn new tricks. He is who we thought he was. I dont think he was a good fit on this team. Hope he finds success elsewhere. Great slasher and finisher overall. Better at attacking the rim than I thought. Personally I didn't know his shooting was that bad, and I thought his defense was better. But he was still a professional on and off the court.

How was he a bad fit with our success? To have bought in another guard might have cost us in another area. Its easy to say the team would be better with an upgrade. Its obvious. But to do that comes at not having Burkes, bullock or Rose? They contributed also to what was a great season.
Of course he is flawed. He is paid like a scrub and what ever he did he helped and never detracted from the over all result.

For that I have appreciation. Not a long term contract and a big raise. Just a “thumbs up”.

Point taken....Hes a bad fit as a starter for this team...Due to the lack of consistent shooters around him and terrible floor spacing in the paint. Hes not a bad fit in general. Now if we had a center that shoots 3s and a SF who's a shooter and not just a slasher, we probably wouldn't even have this thread. Payton, RJ and Randle need space to operate. RJ and Randle are cornerstone pieces, so Payton takes the blame. In reality you can point the finger at the FO or Thibs who put this starting 5 together. It's not Paytons fault. He did what he was supposed to do and what he's done his entire career. I believe the starting 5 lineup exposed Paytons weakness. A good coach knows how to hide weaknesses and increase strengths. Glad coach got COY, but he's at fault for putting this starting 5 together, without making adjustments sooner. Vs waiting until the playoffs.

Elf just sucks. He’s a bad fit anywhere. Literally the only thing he does well is dribble.

If he and Rose are both back next season we probably don’t even make the playoffs. This is Raymond Felton all over again we must move on

Raymond Felton wasn’t bad. Just a tad overweight lol

He had a nice 18 foot jumper

Probably top 3 pgs of the decade lol for us before this year

Yep. At his best, Felton was a top 15 of and a borderline All-star. Just had too many problems off the court with food and women.

He is at core a selfish player. We saw it last year when he was more interested in playing 2 man game w Julius

I suspect this year he started as long as he did bc thibs was also trying to manage egos. The fact that he wasn’t finishing games even though he was a supposed defensive player is telling. Why was that? I suspect because his FT sucked, has sucked, and will continue to suck. Whose fault is that?

Literally every other Knick got better in some identifiable way as the season progressed except him

Chandler wrote:Not wishing Ill will it will appreciate his departure

He is at core a selfish player. We saw it last year when he was more interested in playing 2 man game w Julius

I suspect this year he started as long as he did bc thibs was also trying to manage egos. The fact that he wasn’t finishing games even though he was a supposed defensive player is telling. Why was that? I suspect because his FT sucked, has sucked, and will continue to suck. Whose fault is that?

Literally every other Knick got better in some identifiable way as the season progressed except him

Selfish? If so that’s on coach who can’t control his PG?

But, 10games over .500 speaks louder than anything. Do you get there without him?
Rivers didn’t take us there and one can argue he a better player. Sometimes right guy at the time.
Appreciate the moment. Not saying we need more.

blkexec wrote:Yep.. you mis understood my position. All good. But I'll say this again, if Thibs is going to replace Payton at all, don't replace him in the playoffs, it's too late and too risky of a move, which is now clear to everyone. Granted most people approved the move since Rose came in second half and saved the game. But Rose did this all season. Thibs had plenty of times to experiment with Payton starting or coming off the bench. That's all I'm saying.

When could he have removed Payton during the season you asked? I don't know. I'm not looking that deep into last season anymore. Im just appreciating Payton for coming in and doing what he's been known for,, while not being a locker room problem... But there was opportunities better than in the playoffs, to experiment. That was a desperation move that most fans and the media was pushing.

Im sure u approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs. It's hard to find people to admit it now of course. I will admit it. But I'm not the coach making millions. Thibs gets paid for these decisions and I fault him for that decision and adding fault to his non decision during the season, when it was clear that Payton started to check out. Was inconsistent, team played better with him on the bench...the signs was there. Thibs waited too long to finally do something he wanted to do earlier, probably after seeing Rose and IQ impact on the floor. He tried it once with Burks who's a SG. That's a negative on Thibs as well. Even i wasn't for that move. And he quickly went back to Payton. Did Frank ever start? Thibs just appeared a little too loyal to Payton starting, eventhough he rarely saw the second half. What's the pt in that when we have other PGs on the roster outside of Rose to experiment with...Burks is not a PG.

IDK this seems like a lot of a cop out response. You want to say that you appreciate what Elf did but also want to bring up a ton of other points but when asked about them, you skirt any type of response, which is fine and all but lets just recognize that.

And saying that you are sure that *I* approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs will leave you flat on your face with zero notion of what you are talking about. I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that better or more nicely. You don't like it when another poster seems to want to put words into your thought process but are OK doing it yourself?

Let me be clear to you: Fuck the notion that I wanted Rose in the starting lineup at any time during the season or playoffs, I had been clear about it over and over and over and gave my reasons why previously and in multiple threads (just not this one) and also offered up an alternative of Burks being a starter if Thibs was up for a radical way to play chess with Atlanta on the Trae matchup.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:Yep.. you mis understood my position. All good. But I'll say this again, if Thibs is going to replace Payton at all, don't replace him in the playoffs, it's too late and too risky of a move, which is now clear to everyone. Granted most people approved the move since Rose came in second half and saved the game. But Rose did this all season. Thibs had plenty of times to experiment with Payton starting or coming off the bench. That's all I'm saying.

When could he have removed Payton during the season you asked? I don't know. I'm not looking that deep into last season anymore. Im just appreciating Payton for coming in and doing what he's been known for,, while not being a locker room problem... But there was opportunities better than in the playoffs, to experiment. That was a desperation move that most fans and the media was pushing.

Im sure u approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs. It's hard to find people to admit it now of course. I will admit it. But I'm not the coach making millions. Thibs gets paid for these decisions and I fault him for that decision and adding fault to his non decision during the season, when it was clear that Payton started to check out. Was inconsistent, team played better with him on the bench...the signs was there. Thibs waited too long to finally do something he wanted to do earlier, probably after seeing Rose and IQ impact on the floor. He tried it once with Burks who's a SG. That's a negative on Thibs as well. Even i wasn't for that move. And he quickly went back to Payton. Did Frank ever start? Thibs just appeared a little too loyal to Payton starting, eventhough he rarely saw the second half. What's the pt in that when we have other PGs on the roster outside of Rose to experiment with...Burks is not a PG.

IDK this seems like a lot of a cop out response. You want to say that you appreciate what Elf did but also want to bring up a ton of other points but when asked about them, you skirt any type of response, which is fine and all but lets just recognize that.

And saying that you are sure that *I* approved the Rose starting over Payton move in the playoffs will leave you flat on your face with zero notion of what you are talking about. I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that better or more nicely. You don't like it when another poster seems to want to put words into your thought process but are OK doing it yourself?

Let me be clear to you: Fuck the notion that I wanted Rose in the starting lineup at any time during the season or playoffs, I had been clear about it over and over and over and gave my reasons why previously and in multiple threads (just not this one) and also offered up an alternative of Burks being a starter if Thibs was up for a radical way to play chess with Atlanta on the Trae matchup.

I have no issue responding to anything, if I know what u are debating or saying. I'm lost.. And I don't know how u feel about Payton or Burks starting....sorry. thats why I have a million assumptions because your replies are questions or u say I already talked about that in another thread. That's wonderful...are u expecting me to dig that out....NO.. if you don't want to repeat what you already said, no problem to me.. im cool with that...This is not about you anyway....its about Payton. He seems like a decent dude who was very professional.. showed up and did what coach ask. I can't complain about that. How he fits with this team is up to the FO and coach that signed him and coached him.

Its a text message, yet you trying to have a face to face type convo by replying every 2 days. That doesn't work. We are going to mis understand any points we trying to make. I don't read every single post you make. Don't have time. I think this could be resolved over a quick 2 min phone call. Not text.

I'm tired of trying to clarify where I stand. Just to read u already responded in another thread about it. OK. Then there's nothing else to talk about correct? Not sure where this is going.....help me out. But I will keep repeating myself until u want to comment and say anything about that. Here we go again....

I appreciate Payton for his services. I also think Payton was the wrong type of starting PG for this team (not his fault) we have other players in the starting lineup who can't shoot. Now RJ and Randle increased their shooting percentage which is why it worked with payton. But when Randle starts missing like he did in the playoffs and goes to bully ball style...when RJ shoots airballs....all of a sudden, u have 4 players trying to get to the rim or same spot on the floor.... And elfs, Noel and RJs man can double team or play zone. This is also why zone defense was so affective. If u disagree with anything. Let me know. I'm not running away from anything I've said or saying. If I say something wrong. I have no problem admiting that. This convo we are having, is losing steam quick.

How can I appreciate a player and say he's not a good fit in the same breath? Very easy. Is that why we have over 100 text replies because I'm showing appreciation while also saying he doesn't fit? Really...are u serious. God please close this thread. Payton doesn't deserve this much energy....I say someone contact Martin to close this. Lol. Nothing more to discuss about Payton to me. Thank u for your services Payton. Hope u find success on another team.