Knicks · Bottom Line: you need a top 10 player, bide time until then (page 1)
This team should focus on 2 objectives:
1. continue to keep the draft pick pool large by deferring picks if possible. We need to have picks always in the cupboard besides our own.
2. Don’t waste cap space by not using it. Between this summer and next the time to get really good is now. We need to become one superstar away for a contender without sacrificing future picks. So guys like Lowry, DeRozan, Powell, Ball, Oubre, etc get thrown around, if you can get them for a good contract do it, because we aren’t sacrificing anything besides cap space to grab them.
For guys like Randle and Barrett, the extensions are coming and cap space will be gone for the foreseeable future. You add 2 major players now via free agency because this is the opportunity. It has to be this year or next. Basically a PG and a wing. And then sit tight with the assets.
Lebron, Kawhi, Luka, Jokic, KD, Harden, Embiid, Lillard, Giannis, and Steph. Maybe I can be convinced of a couple of others, and obviously a few guys in the league can develop into that group, but those are the 10 I see who can be the best player on a championship team based on history. We need to make the team ready for that one guy. Maybe Booker, Mitchell etc elevate to that point. But we have to be choosy with trading assets and generous with contracts for free agents because we need to get better. Once we do that someone like Lillard, embiid etc will put the Knicks on a list of 3-4 teams and the Knicks will have the picks to move for that player.
jskinny35 wrote:For the most part I agree with this. My hope is that RJ develops into the Robin so that we can pair him with the right Batman when he develops/becomes available in the future. I think Zach Lavine is on the of the younger players who could eventually develop into a top 10 player (Melo-type) and also may be attainable. I think Booker, Donovan and Ja are on the cusp at the moment.
There’s definitely guys that can get there. I think Barrett can be a robin, as can Randle. Then add 1 or 2 more guys in this free agency who can become difference makers. Guys like Ball and Powell can be 4th and 5th guys on a contender. This is what we need to build towards.
I might argue Thibs is the one coach who could get a Detroit style team there.
I'd also add that RJ might be closer to be that kind of top ten talent than folks are giving him. I remember seeing one snippet of his stats, and how it was achieved by a very select group of players by his age.
If we could add a PG like Ball or Payne, and still find another Quickly type talent in the draft, back fill with overachieving role players, and I could see this squad making a run.
I could also see us sliding back to 30 wins or so if we miss out and have guys injured.
Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be better
At least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
franco12 wrote:I agree with the need for a top 10 type player, a franchise changing talent to be on your roster for you to realistically stand a chance at challenging for a spot in the finals.I might argue Thibs is the one coach who could get a Detroit style team there.
I'd also add that RJ might be closer to be that kind of top ten talent than folks are giving him. I remember seeing one snippet of his stats, and how it was achieved by a very select group of players by his age.
If we could add a PG like Ball or Payne, and still find another Quickly type talent in the draft, back fill with overachieving role players, and I could see this squad making a run.
I could also see us sliding back to 30 wins or so if we miss out and have guys injured.
Of the potential top 10 players to come available, Lillard and Kawhi are the only realistic ones this summer. Unlikely for Kawhi, a little more likely for Lillard. If you can get Lillard you go all in. For next summer, i can see either Embiid or Giannis getting frustrated and looking for a change. Embiid is the most interesting because he's a former Leon Rose guy. If you revamp the backcourt this summer with a new PG and wing, then next summer move a resigned Mitch, someone on an expiring contract like Bullock (i bet we sign him this summer for 2/20) and all of the draft picks possible for Embiid, you have a contender. We need to prove this summer with our free agent signing that we can put a better supporting case around guys like Lillard, Embiid, and Giannis who are on good playoff teams but step below contender.
xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
Yeah that's unfortunately how it works typically.
xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seed
Welpee wrote:idk, seems like we're going backwards targeting 20__'s free agent class.
We have no better options
Philc1 wrote:Welpee wrote:idk, seems like we're going backwards targeting 20__'s free agent class.We have no better options
We actually have a lot better options than hoping that Beal and LaVine will really be free agents in 2022 (which of course is possible) and that they will come to NY (here history doesn’t really give us reason to be optimistic).
As I already wrote, we finally have some core and now it's time for a step where we have to add more quality players. Will Ball and Powell bring us the title? Of course not, but if we add say two of them (or Nunn, Graham, Brunson, Oubre...) and at least one of our picks becomes a useful player (or we use them for trade up to take the player we want), then we have a lot more assets to do some trade because we have a lot of young players and future picks. I’d say it’s a safer option than hoping to catch top free agents.
Not to mention that in case we put together such a team, we will be much more tempting to these free agents. What matters is to avoid bad contracts so that all players are “movable” if it proves necessary to free up cap space for some good free agent.
Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seed
In fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
EwingsGlass wrote:Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seedIn fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
Free agency is becoming less of a factor for the biggest named guys. They are able to dictate their futures before it becomes a concern and they are more aggressive in doing so. Freen agency will only allow us to get the 2nd or 3rd tier guys. Which is fine. We should sign the best players we can, as long as we maintain picks and youth for a future trade for a top tier player. The teams that are strapped without an easy way to improve isn't due to having big contracts or overpaid players, it's due to lack of draft picks and quality prospects on rookie contracts.
Knixkik wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seedIn fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
Free agency is becoming less of a factor for the biggest named guys. They are able to dictate their futures before it becomes a concern and they are more aggressive in doing so. Freen agency will only allow us to get the 2nd or 3rd tier guys. Which is fine. We should sign the best players we can, as long as we maintain picks and youth for a future trade for a top tier player. The teams that are strapped without an easy way to improve isn't due to having big contracts or overpaid players, it's due to lack of draft picks and quality prospects on rookie contracts.
I don't know what that sentence really means. The biggest named guys changing teams were always sparse and it all depended on a confluence of a few different things happening at the same time.
Team with both cap space, a situation where there was high end playoff winning, and stable FO/coaching/market situation.
Knicks need to create their own luck and situation and have taken a giant step towards that. In fact, I would say it is on par with what the Brooklyn situation was 2 years ago with 1 more year to go on the Knicks side of things.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seedIn fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
Free agency is becoming less of a factor for the biggest named guys. They are able to dictate their futures before it becomes a concern and they are more aggressive in doing so. Freen agency will only allow us to get the 2nd or 3rd tier guys. Which is fine. We should sign the best players we can, as long as we maintain picks and youth for a future trade for a top tier player. The teams that are strapped without an easy way to improve isn't due to having big contracts or overpaid players, it's due to lack of draft picks and quality prospects on rookie contracts.I don't know what that sentence really means. The biggest named guys changing teams were always sparse and it all depended on a confluence of a few different things happening at the same time.
Team with both cap space, a situation where there was high end playoff winning, and stable FO/coaching/market situation.
Knicks need to create their own luck and situation and have taken a giant step towards that. In fact, I would say it is on par with what the Brooklyn situation was 2 years ago with 1 more year to go on the Knicks side of things.
I think big named players move more often now than they did before. The new capology seems to have a benefit to being over the cap - that extra salary is an asset. You saw Boston give up second round picks for the right to trade Gordon Hayward and get a traded player exception so they wouldn’t lose that salary outright.
James Harden, Anthony Davis and Paul George come to mind most recently in getting their choice of destination. Not sure if Chris Paul engineered the Phoenix trade.
It’s a lot more movement than we are used to. It is clearly “super team” driven.
The question is where will Lillard end up and who will go with him?
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seedIn fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
Free agency is becoming less of a factor for the biggest named guys. They are able to dictate their futures before it becomes a concern and they are more aggressive in doing so. Freen agency will only allow us to get the 2nd or 3rd tier guys. Which is fine. We should sign the best players we can, as long as we maintain picks and youth for a future trade for a top tier player. The teams that are strapped without an easy way to improve isn't due to having big contracts or overpaid players, it's due to lack of draft picks and quality prospects on rookie contracts.I don't know what that sentence really means. The biggest named guys changing teams were always sparse and it all depended on a confluence of a few different things happening at the same time.
Team with both cap space, a situation where there was high end playoff winning, and stable FO/coaching/market situation.
Knicks need to create their own luck and situation and have taken a giant step towards that. In fact, I would say it is on par with what the Brooklyn situation was 2 years ago with 1 more year to go on the Knicks side of things.
I mean big name players hit free agency less now. They move before that. Free agency isn’t a thing for most of these tops guys anymore. Free agency used to be how the major guys moved. Now it’s trade because they are more aggressive in pushing it. Think about 2010. No one asked to be traded before melo really. These guys just waited and then made their decision. Now they make their decision whenever and ask to be traded there and teams do it. Harden was the tip of the iceberg. He asked for a trade to the nets only despite being 2 1/2 years from free agency and the nets having no real assets and he still got there within a month.
The top of this year's draft offers better odds of getting that eventual top 10 player, but we went in a different direction...
I am still hopeful that RJ develops into a Batman. Robins would be easier to find.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:Philc1 wrote:xavier wrote:Philc1 wrote:2022 free agency is maybe the best Free Agent class since 2010. It might even be betterAt least half of those players will not end up being free agents when the summer of 2022 finally comes. Mark my words.
I agree but at least a couple guys will end up hitting the open market
The key is we remain competitive next season. By competitive I mean at least 6th seedIn fairness, this FA class was supposed to be the best FA class of all time...
Free agency is becoming less of a factor for the biggest named guys. They are able to dictate their futures before it becomes a concern and they are more aggressive in doing so. Freen agency will only allow us to get the 2nd or 3rd tier guys. Which is fine. We should sign the best players we can, as long as we maintain picks and youth for a future trade for a top tier player. The teams that are strapped without an easy way to improve isn't due to having big contracts or overpaid players, it's due to lack of draft picks and quality prospects on rookie contracts.I don't know what that sentence really means. The biggest named guys changing teams were always sparse and it all depended on a confluence of a few different things happening at the same time.
Team with both cap space, a situation where there was high end playoff winning, and stable FO/coaching/market situation.
Knicks need to create their own luck and situation and have taken a giant step towards that. In fact, I would say it is on par with what the Brooklyn situation was 2 years ago with 1 more year to go on the Knicks side of things.
I mean big name players hit free agency less now. They move before that. Free agency isn’t a thing for most of these tops guys anymore. Free agency used to be how the major guys moved. Now it’s trade because they are more aggressive in pushing it. Think about 2010. No one asked to be traded before melo really. These guys just waited and then made their decision. Now they make their decision whenever and ask to be traded there and teams do it. Harden was the tip of the iceberg. He asked for a trade to the nets only despite being 2 1/2 years from free agency and the nets having no real assets and he still got there within a month.
Durant. Kyrie. Kawhi. LeBron. Kemba. Hayward. Old Al Horford. Large step down: Randle, Jerami Grant, Rozier, Bogan Bogdanović, Gallo.
Guys that were traded or forced trades? AD, Harden, CP3, Russel, PG, KP, Butler, Tobias, Jrue Holiday. Step down: Nikola Vučević, Aaron Gordon, Oldapido, Capalla.
Guys that will be FA, most likely opt out of their contracts to resign (or not) within a year or so: CP3, Harden, Durant, Butler, Kawhi, Lowry, LaVine, Rozier, Randle, Beal, Steph.
When opportunity strikes, you make sure you are prepared for it and take advantage. If that window goes without your liking, you wait til it happens again and move on with your other plans.
TPercy wrote:Yeah I agree I just wish we were in 2022 :(It doesnt matter... this was supposed to be the greatest FA class and everyone signed extensions so it didnt matter. Next year could be the same. That part is wild luck and cant be planned for. Like Martin said be ready and that means if it doesnt happen plan B is how acquiring more chips for the trade part. So far it looks like we are doing a nice job with the chips, lets see if we win any pots :)