Knicks · Phoenix. Young and loaded with their own draft picks (page 2)

The Suns have done a great job and they have a prototypical player at each position, with quality players off the bench. Damn Fizdale, we should have had Bridges.

knicks1248 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They drafted a great center
They drafted great wing players
They moved on chris paul
To pull it all together

And same with Atlanta. These teams were durable with younger players

We have 3 picks in a good draft — I hope we don’t try to short the process again.
Keep cap space open for right player. Keep acquiring and cultivating younger guys for long tern

Those teams got lucky and picked high in the right drafts. Mikal Bridges is the only miss we really had, Its not like we could of had Ayton or Young

Yeah we could have

Think about it, we had the 3rd pick (RJ) plus multiple future 1st rnd draft picks to move up one spot to take Ja..a position in need for 30 yrs

We had cap space to absorb CPs contract if we were aggressive, instead we resigned Payton

We drafted kp and Booker was 10 spots later.

we drafted OBI instead of Haliburton even though every mock draft had us taken him or killian hayes

We drafted Knox when bridges was they guy

Frank instead of Mitchell

The Knicks FO have been almost petrified to gamble or take Risk since walsh left. They have been super conservative and have not drafted well, just OK.

The don't draft well to be gun ho about up incoming drafts

This response is a mess.

Morant was not a draft night "miss" he was picked ahead of us which is the opposite of a "miss". There is no way to know if Memphis was even willing to move the pick or an offer was made or not.

CP was a FA and has nothing to do with a draft night miss.

KP was the correct choice at the time. Booker is better but you are reaching here. Definition really is taking a useleas player instead of someone who becomes very good to great.

Obi, Haliburton, Hayes - an intellectually honest person would know it is too soon to tell.

Bridges was mentioned in the post you responded to, are you being repetitive for effect?

Mitchell is the only one you got, and that was 2 front offices ago under Phil.

My point was not about us missing anything or anyone, it's more about not going aggressively after a player like Ja or whoever.

They have been very passive when it comes to getting the right PG, and it's been the biggest need for this franchise for how many yrs..

phil was ready to trade KP little after he got him, and it's no secrete MILL was a conservative an in experience.

The past moves have gotten 2 presidents fired and several coaches, so clearly the moves could have been done better.

Same for the suns past FO regimes, but it is what it is, learn the from mistakes of others and learn the good things that others do to succeed.

BTW I like RJ, best pick since EWING, but i liked Ja better.

You're confusing being able to get the right PG with being passive about it. While they may have not made the correct moves - there is nothing passive about the FO actions in this regard:

- They used a #8 Lottery Pick on a PG (Frank) - who hasn't worked out
- They signed a former #7 Lottery Pick PG (Mudiay) - didn't work out
- They traded their franchise F/C for a previous lottery PG (DSJ) who didn't work out
- They used their #21 Pick in last year's draft to pick a lead guard (IQ) - so far looks like a good pick
- They signed a former MVP PG (Rose) - was a good move

You have an argument that taking a PG like Haliburton in the past draft to address their previous misses would have been the right move. But that does not mean the FO has been passive. Also, there is no way to know anything about the discussions with CP3 or if he would have even come to NY before last season. He may have been looking to go to a contender - and the Knicks were still considered a bottom feeder going into last season.

PHila drafted MIles Bridges whom his mother works for!!!! Then traded him.
Up until the bubble He was unremarkable.
He would not have shined as a knick with all the changes and turmoil. He is the 4-5th option on a very good team. Let’s not over do this with hindsight clarity and Frank Regret.
Yes, we all wish we could have him over Frank now. Not a stroke of genius to think that one up.

Nalod wrote:PHila drafted MIles Bridges whom his mother works for!!!! Then traded him.
Up until the bubble He was unremarkable.
He would not have shined as a knick with all the changes and turmoil. He is the 4-5th option on a very good team. Let’s not over do this with hindsight clarity and Frank Regret.
Yes, we all wish we could have him over Frank now. Not a stroke of genius to think that one up.

Good observations.

My personal peeve with the rear-view mirror draft critics is audacity of it. The complaint is always framed as "Why did the Knicks pick John Doe instead of Harry Megastar who was picked later?"

But the reality is that the Knicks picked John Doe instead of the 50+ other roll-of-the-dice draft eligible, well-regarded players. The only team that didn't miss out on Harry Megastar is the team that drafted him. EVERYBODY ELSE missed out, not just the Knicks.

The big question in this year's draft is that at #58 do the Knicks draft BPA or draft for need? And heaven forbid that #59 or #60 become Harry Megastar.

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:And then you have Milwaukee and the Clippers who built their final four teams with a different template. Bottom line is there are several paths to building a winner. We have to determine what's the best course for our team based on our assets.

Yeah but we’ve tried the other way for 20 years

Well, if you think about it we've also tried the draft/lottery route for the past several years too.

and have the Porzingis assets, RJ, IQ, Mitch and Obi to show for it with Knox/Frank being whiffs. I would say we are on the right path here.

The key is to add impact talent this year in FA. That is what allows you to keep all these picks and hopefully draft a project or two. I mean what if we draft Shariff Cooper at 21, let him run the G league team and it turns out he develops a nice stroke and is the next Isaiah Thomas... you know the healthy one.

Not saying the above will happen but at least I feel like we are playing that game (if they deem it worthy of spending the asset/pick on)

Its funny you mention Shariffe Cooper. I have watched him play at least 5 times during the season and have been watching a ton of video on him over the last week. I love his game! His vision. amd cout awareness is elite. Best passing pg to come out of college in a long time. He is impossible to keep out of the paint because of his quickness, and he draws a ton of fouls. He shoots above 80% from the line which is encouraging considering his poor 3 pt %. I think his shot can be fixed ( he has a slow release and leans back on the jumper). Unfortunately his height can't be fixed. He would be targeted on defense. Sheriffe is a baller, though and Im torn on him.

Write up sounds great. With three essentially first round picks we can take a risk.

I think it's imperative we get some guys with a killer instinct, the right amount of swagger. A bit worried about Randle providing the alpha

and we need a real pg. needed for Obi, KK if we're ever considering him. Bullock

we need a playmaker

Doesn't Lonzo check those boxes..playmaker, shoots 3s, plays D, same timeline (young), won't break the bank

foosballnick wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:They drafted a great center
They drafted great wing players
They moved on chris paul
To pull it all together

And same with Atlanta. These teams were durable with younger players

We have 3 picks in a good draft — I hope we don’t try to short the process again.
Keep cap space open for right player. Keep acquiring and cultivating younger guys for long tern

Those teams got lucky and picked high in the right drafts. Mikal Bridges is the only miss we really had, Its not like we could of had Ayton or Young

Yeah we could have

Think about it, we had the 3rd pick (RJ) plus multiple future 1st rnd draft picks to move up one spot to take Ja..a position in need for 30 yrs

We had cap space to absorb CPs contract if we were aggressive, instead we resigned Payton

We drafted kp and Booker was 10 spots later.

we drafted OBI instead of Haliburton even though every mock draft had us taken him or killian hayes

We drafted Knox when bridges was they guy

Frank instead of Mitchell

The Knicks FO have been almost petrified to gamble or take Risk since walsh left. They have been super conservative and have not drafted well, just OK.

The don't draft well to be gun ho about up incoming drafts

This response is a mess.

Morant was not a draft night "miss" he was picked ahead of us which is the opposite of a "miss". There is no way to know if Memphis was even willing to move the pick or an offer was made or not.

CP was a FA and has nothing to do with a draft night miss.

KP was the correct choice at the time. Booker is better but you are reaching here. Definition really is taking a useleas player instead of someone who becomes very good to great.

Obi, Haliburton, Hayes - an intellectually honest person would know it is too soon to tell.

Bridges was mentioned in the post you responded to, are you being repetitive for effect?

Mitchell is the only one you got, and that was 2 front offices ago under Phil.

My point was not about us missing anything or anyone, it's more about not going aggressively after a player like Ja or whoever.

They have been very passive when it comes to getting the right PG, and it's been the biggest need for this franchise for how many yrs..

phil was ready to trade KP little after he got him, and it's no secrete MILL was a conservative an in experience.

The past moves have gotten 2 presidents fired and several coaches, so clearly the moves could have been done better.

Same for the suns past FO regimes, but it is what it is, learn the from mistakes of others and learn the good things that others do to succeed.

BTW I like RJ, best pick since EWING, but i liked Ja better.

You're confusing being able to get the right PG with being passive about it. While they may have not made the correct moves - there is nothing passive about the FO actions in this regard:

- They used a #8 Lottery Pick on a PG (Frank) - who hasn't worked out
- They signed a former #7 Lottery Pick PG (Mudiay) - didn't work out
- They traded their franchise F/C for a previous lottery PG (DSJ) who didn't work out
- They used their #21 Pick in last year's draft to pick a lead guard (IQ) - so far looks like a good pick
- They signed a former MVP PG (Rose) - was a good move

You have an argument that taking a PG like Haliburton in the past draft to address their previous misses would have been the right move. But that does not mean the FO has been passive. Also, there is no way to know anything about the discussions with CP3 or if he would have even come to NY before last season. He may have been looking to go to a contender - and the Knicks were still considered a bottom feeder going into last season.

I take offense to saying Mudiay didn't work out - we probably could have used him this year! But we got a great year out of him.

Was he even in the league this year?

Moonangie wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:And then you have Milwaukee and the Clippers who built their final four teams with a different template. Bottom line is there are several paths to building a winner. We have to determine what's the best course for our team based on our assets.

Yeah but we’ve tried the other way for 20 years

Well, if you think about it we've also tried the draft/lottery route for the past several years too.

and have the Porzingis assets, RJ, IQ, Mitch and Obi to show for it with Knox/Frank being whiffs. I would say we are on the right path here.

The key is to add impact talent this year in FA. That is what allows you to keep all these picks and hopefully draft a project or two. I mean what if we draft Shariff Cooper at 21, let him run the G league team and it turns out he develops a nice stroke and is the next Isaiah Thomas... you know the healthy one.

Not saying the above will happen but at least I feel like we are playing that game (if they deem it worthy of spending the asset/pick on)

Its funny you mention Shariffe Cooper. I have watched him play at least 5 times during the season and have been watching a ton of video on him over the last week. I love his game! His vision. amd cout awareness is elite. Best passing pg to come out of college in a long time. He is impossible to keep out of the paint because of his quickness, and he draws a ton of fouls. He shoots above 80% from the line which is encouraging considering his poor 3 pt %. I think his shot can be fixed ( he has a slow release and leans back on the jumper). Unfortunately his height can't be fixed. He would be targeted on defense. Sheriffe is a baller, though and Im torn on him.

Write up sounds great. With three essentially first round picks we can take a risk.

I think it's imperative we get some guys with a killer instinct, the right amount of swagger. A bit worried about Randle providing the alpha

and we need a real pg. needed for Obi, KK if we're ever considering him. Bullock

we need a playmaker

Doesn't Lonzo check those boxes..playmaker, shoots 3s, plays D, same timeline (young), won't break the bank

not a believer. i've been wrong many times before though

i'm looking for someone more electric getting to the rim, drawing fouls, and hopefully shooting

Nalod wrote:Was he even in the league this year?

You know...I spent a good five minutes of Internet sleuthing trying to find out what country he's playing in now. Only thing I could find is that Johnathan Kuminga is his cousin.

the suns resurgence centers around one man...old chris paul. imho, they're a play-in type of team w/o a pg/leader like paul. so them being at this level may be short lived if they don't find a legit replacement.

djsunyc wrote:the suns resurgence centers around one man...old chris paul. imho, they're a play-in type of team w/o a pg/leader like paul. so them being at this level may be short lived if they don't find a legit replacement.

so you're saying he's their Kawhi

SupremeCommander wrote:

djsunyc wrote:the suns resurgence centers around one man...old chris paul. imho, they're a play-in type of team w/o a pg/leader like paul. so them being at this level may be short lived if they don't find a legit replacement.

so you're saying he's their Kawhi

not really b/c the suns were pure trash before he got there. not 1/2 seeds like the raptors were before and after.

wait, do you mean kawhi and the clippers? then yes, in that context.

there's a good chance they go out to denver if they have murray. and may not have beaten the lakers if they were healthy too. i think we'll have a better handle of who they are next season but if they win a chip this year, then it doesn't really matter.

djsunyc wrote:the suns resurgence centers around one man...old chris paul. imho, they're a play-in type of team w/o a pg/leader like paul. so them being at this level may be short lived if they don't find a legit replacement.

No it’s James Jones

he drafted Ayton, Bridges, Johnson, Saric hired Monty Williams, brought in Crowder, Payne, and CP3

He shipped out all the guys who weren’t buyimg in and right now is challenging Masai for smartest exec in the league.

The Suns built their team up right. CP3 was the last piece of the puzzle but Jones was the guy putting it together.

Suns did really well in the bubble last year. It was a sign of things to come perhaps.
Ayton has matured, booker plays off Paul well, and Bridges load is reduced making him “better”.
THis is their window. CP3 has to stay on the floor!

Nalod wrote:Suns did really well in the bubble last year. It was a sign of things to come perhaps.
Ayton has matured, booker plays off Paul well, and Bridges load is reduced making him “better”.
THis is their window. CP3 has to stay on the floor!

I really think they could win it this year. They have no weaknesses to exploit. Everyone has a role and that makes them better. Plus really good roleplayers.

TheGame wrote:The Suns have done a great job and they have a prototypical player at each position, with quality players off the bench. Damn Fizdale, we should have had Bridges.

3 years ago I thought he was the obvious pick. And then outta nowhere we take Knox instead. Ugh

The 3 year player who won 2 chips, one as a starter, was awarded the Erving award as top SF of the year. Of course was the obvious pick. Fizdale did not draft him. Knicks did. They thought Knox had greater upside. Three years later Bridges has his best season as the 5th option lead by new to suns HOF player CP3.

You in hindsight feel like he was the obvious pick. No shyt.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:PHila drafted MIles Bridges whom his mother works for!!!! Then traded him.
Up until the bubble He was unremarkable.
He would not have shined as a knick with all the changes and turmoil. He is the 4-5th option on a very good team. Let’s not over do this with hindsight clarity and Frank Regret.
Yes, we all wish we could have him over Frank now. Not a stroke of genius to think that one up.

Good observations.

My personal peeve with the rear-view mirror draft critics is audacity of it. The complaint is always framed as "Why did the Knicks pick John Doe instead of Harry Megastar who was picked later?"

But the reality is that the Knicks picked John Doe instead of the 50+ other roll-of-the-dice draft eligible, well-regarded players. The only team that didn't miss out on Harry Megastar is the team that drafted him. EVERYBODY ELSE missed out, not just the Knicks.

The big question in this year's draft is that at #58 do the Knicks draft BPA or draft for need? And heaven forbid that #59 or #60 become Harry Megastar.

A lot of the criticism is when the Knicks pick a guy with a projectible tool set but NOT a projectible skill set.

Being able to jump out of the gym like a young Blake Griffin is a tool set.

Being able to defend the rim at a league average level is a skill set.

Kevin Knox, during his draft cycle, had some interesting tools. He was, however, very unskilled. The common argument is the Knicks shouldn't play it cute,but just pick players who are fundamental and have a baseline skill set that fits a current and practical NBA role somewhere. I am not and was never a huge Nesmith fan. However I can see how he has an actual skill set ( long range shooting) that fills an important NBA role and is projectible. Obi Toppin has a few interesting tools, but he is very unskilled. Poor handle. Can't score in the low post. Unlikely his long range shooting translates to the degree needed to compensate for his utter lack of defense. Can't create his own shot at all. Can't pick and pop. Sets shitty picks. Struggles to fight through screens. Is not that great moving all the ball. Does not operate well in close contact. I could go on for a long ass time here.

The NBA Draft is a crapshoot. However there is no sense is making it that much more of a crapshoot for yourself than is needed in any situation.

Lots of people were screaming that Frank N should have played against the Hawks. You know who would have helped? Devin Vassell. Projected by most pundits pre draft to go to the Knicks. Someone with specific skills that fit a real and practical NBA role. Vassell could have helped this team all year long and in the playoffs.

Teams like the Warriors, established and stable front office, can go High Risk/High Reward like a Knox ( high chance to bust but the tool set says if he works out, he's a superstar) But teams who suffered like the Knicks have for decades should just pick high floor fundamental skilled guys where you hope a few will breakout into something more.

My complaint is generally why did the Knicks pick the less skilled/less fundamental/less projectible player and make the entire situation only quadruple harder on themselves?

This is not rocket science. My background is football by stock and trade. I have casual interest in the NBA. There should be no reason why I can come up with a better plan for the Knicks than the actual front office did under the Jackson/Mills/Perry regimes.

Frank Ntilkina has actual projectible skills. I get why that pick was made. But Knox and Toppin make zero sense.

TripleThreat wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:PHila drafted MIles Bridges whom his mother works for!!!! Then traded him.
Up until the bubble He was unremarkable.
He would not have shined as a knick with all the changes and turmoil. He is the 4-5th option on a very good team. Let’s not over do this with hindsight clarity and Frank Regret.
Yes, we all wish we could have him over Frank now. Not a stroke of genius to think that one up.

Good observations.

My personal peeve with the rear-view mirror draft critics is audacity of it. The complaint is always framed as "Why did the Knicks pick John Doe instead of Harry Megastar who was picked later?"

But the reality is that the Knicks picked John Doe instead of the 50+ other roll-of-the-dice draft eligible, well-regarded players. The only team that didn't miss out on Harry Megastar is the team that drafted him. EVERYBODY ELSE missed out, not just the Knicks.

The big question in this year's draft is that at #58 do the Knicks draft BPA or draft for need? And heaven forbid that #59 or #60 become Harry Megastar.

A lot of the criticism is when the Knicks pick a guy with a projectible tool set but NOT a projectible skill set.

Being able to jump out of the gym like a young Blake Griffin is a tool set.

Being able to defend the rim at a league average level is a skill set.

Kevin Knox, during his draft cycle, had some interesting tools. He was, however, very unskilled. The common argument is the Knicks shouldn't play it cute,but just pick players who are fundamental and have a baseline skill set that fits a current and practical NBA role somewhere. I am not and was never a huge Nesmith fan. However I can see how he has an actual skill set ( long range shooting) that fills an important NBA role and is projectible. Obi Toppin has a few interesting tools, but he is very unskilled. Poor handle. Can't score in the low post. Unlikely his long range shooting translates to the degree needed to compensate for his utter lack of defense. Can't create his own shot at all. Can't pick and pop. Sets shitty picks. Struggles to fight through screens. Is not that great moving all the ball. Does not operate well in close contact. I could go on for a long ass time here.

The NBA Draft is a crapshoot. However there is no sense is making it that much more of a crapshoot for yourself than is needed in any situation.

Lots of people were screaming that Frank N should have played against the Hawks. You know who would have helped? Devin Vassell. Projected by most pundits pre draft to go to the Knicks. Someone with specific skills that fit a real and practical NBA role. Vassell could have helped this team all year long and in the playoffs.

Teams like the Warriors, established and stable front office, can go High Risk/High Reward like a Knox ( high chance to bust but the tool set says if he works out, he's a superstar) But teams who suffered like the Knicks have for decades should just pick high floor fundamental skilled guys where you hope a few will breakout into something more.

My complaint is generally why did the Knicks pick the less skilled/less fundamental/less projectible player and make the entire situation only quadruple harder on themselves?

This is not rocket science. My background is football by stock and trade. I have casual interest in the NBA. There should be no reason why I can come up with a better plan for the Knicks than the actual front office did under the Jackson/Mills/Perry regimes.

Frank Ntilkina has actual projectible skills. I get why that pick was made. But Knox and Toppin make zero sense.

Unfortunately, the draft like everything else has more to do with politics, social networks, and ingrown FO debt.

I agree with you wholeheartedly in your observations and opinions on this matter.

Devin Vassell was my personal draft day candidate

But year after year, violins play for local players. If he's from NY then his talent evaluation jumps 10 lottery positions.

Last year, Kentucky? Come on down!

Knox is a second-generation athlete. Pulls at your heart don't it. Obie - pretty much same deal.

Is the agent playing in the same poker games?

Add up all these constraints and more and its easy to see why the Knicks, maybe more than any other organization, get blind-sided.

IMO, the Knicks would do better by polling a few Knicks fan sites.

I'm going to make an easy prediction that players drafted after the Knicks pick will out-perform ours and thread after thread will flagellate the FO "for being so stupid".

BRIGGS wrote:They drafted a great center
They drafted great wing players
They moved on chris paul
To pull it all together

And same with Atlanta. These teams were durable with younger players

We have 3 picks in a good draft — I hope we don’t try to short the process again.
Keep cap space open for right player. Keep acquiring and cultivating younger guys for long tern

We would be right there but we missed on Knox and Frank. Its one thing to get a backend rotation player its another to get nothing

fwk00 wrote:Unfortunately, the draft like everything else has more to do with politics, social networks, and ingrown FO debt.

I agree with you wholeheartedly in your observations and opinions on this matter.

Devin Vassell was my personal draft day candidate

But year after year, violins play for local players. If he's from NY then his talent evaluation jumps 10 lottery positions.

Last year, Kentucky? Come on down!

Knox is a second-generation athlete. Pulls at your heart don't it. Obie - pretty much same deal.

Is the agent playing in the same poker games?

Add up all these constraints and more and its easy to see why the Knicks, maybe more than any other organization, get blind-sided.

IMO, the Knicks would do better by polling a few Knicks fan sites.

I'm going to make an easy prediction that players drafted after the Knicks pick will out-perform ours and thread after thread will flagellate the FO "for being so stupid".

Sorry but the logic here doesn't make sense.

- Your local guy theory........ Donovan Mitchell is from NY - so by your logic Knicks would have chosen him over Frank.

- to your reference.about last year being about Kentucky - Obi went to Dayton not Kentucky. IQ was from Kentucky as a 21 pick and worked out well so far.

- 2nd Generation athletes - close to 50% of NBA players are second generation of professional or high level athletes.

- Fan sites know better - which fans on which sites? What about the ones who get it wrong? Hindsite is 20/20 and as pointed out in this thread, fans generally focus on the superstar misses for one team forgetting that much of the draft turns out dissapointing for most teams because there is risk involved.

Knicks FO and coaching has been a merry go round in recent years. Lack of good/stabile organizational IQ have lead to drafing issues and drafting reaches in the past decade+. Hoping that the Rose regime will bring that stability and appropriate leadership. Thet being said, there is still some luck involved in the draft as well.