Knicks · What Can We Learn From That Bucks Title? (page 1)
1.) Stockpiling draft picks, no matter where they fall in the first round, is essential. Not a single member of the Bucks core (Holiday, Giannis or Middleton) was drafted in the lottery. This seems to be an emerging trend set by previous champions like the Raptors. Even recent winners like the Spurs, Mavericks and the Warriors (pre-Durant) only had one top 8 pick to build around/with. Moving forward, I hope Rose is every hit as aggressive in seeking out first round picks as he is signing players to larger contracts.
2.) Even if you don't end up drafting players with those first round picks, they are essential in trading for the types of players that can be the lynchpin to your ultimate success (see Jrue Holiday trade). It's doubtful the Bucks would've been in contention for Holiday had they had a deficit of picks like we frequently had in the past.
3.) Player development is essential. We are a major market but it's unheard of to see a team build a title-team mostly through free agency (even the Heat already had Wade in 2010 to form their big 3; Lakers LeBron in 2019 to lure Anthony Davis via trade). Bucks drafted and developed Giannis and Middleton; while doing an excellent job in doing so with perpherial talent like Pat Connaughton, Dante DeVincinzo and Malcolm Brogdon (who they flipped for the pick that allowed them to dump dead contracts for George Hill; who they later flipped for Jrue Holiday).
It sucked to see Mike Miller, Kenny Atkinson and Josh Longstaff go. When they did, it felt like we stopped seeing dudes like Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin, Chris Copeland, Lance Thomas and Langston Galloway come off the street and make a meaningful difference. Johnny O'Bryant and co. seem to have recaptured some of that magic we had when those types of guys were around. I hope we figure out ways to keep developmental coaches that work on staff with competent underlings/support like the Raptors have with their 305 club (see their work with Pascal Siakim, Fred VanVleet, Norm Powell, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn etc.)
NardDogNation wrote:Some of the things I've thought about:1.) Stockpiling draft picks, no matter where they fall in the first round, is essential. Not a single member of the Bucks core (Holiday, Giannis or Middleton) was drafted in the lottery. This seems to be an emerging trend set by previous champions like the Raptors. Even recent winners like the Spurs, Mavericks and the Warriors (pre-Durant) only had one top 8 pick to build around/with. Moving forward, I hope Rose is every hit as aggressive in seeking out first round picks as he is signing players to larger contracts.
2.) Even if you don't end up drafting players with those first round picks, they are essential in trading for the types of players that can be the lynchpin to your ultimate success (see Jrue Holiday trade). It's doubtful the Bucks would've been in contention for Holiday had they had a deficit of picks like we frequently had in the past.
3.) Player development is essential. We are a major market but it's unheard of to see a team build a title-team mostly through free agency (even the Heat already had Wade in 2010 to form their big 3; Lakers LeBron in 2019 to lure Anthony Davis via trade). Bucks drafted and developed Giannis and Middleton; while doing an excellent job in doing so with perpherial talent like Pat Connaughton, Dante DeVincinzo and Malcolm Brogdon (who they flipped for the pick that allowed them to dump dead contracts for George Hill; who they later flipped for Jrue Holiday).
It sucked to see Mike Miller, Kenny Atkinson and Josh Longstaff go. When they did, it felt like we stopped seeing dudes like Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin, Chris Copeland, Lance Thomas and Langston Galloway come off the street and make a meaningful difference. Johnny O'Bryant and co. seem to have recaptured some of that magic we had when those types of guys were around. I hope we figure out ways to keep developmental coaches that work on staff with competent underlings/support like the Raptors have with their 305 club (see their work with Pascal Siakim, Fred VanVleet, Norm Powell, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn etc.)
Sucked to see those guys go but they never proved themselves as top dogs while here. Atkinson did great becuase he had an owner and GM who saw the only way out was the develop over a few seasons. Build up capital and have cap space. They created opportunity. Mills in hindsight was not far off the mark as but was hurt by Fizdales inadequacy, and KP’s injury and subsequent betrayal. Perhaps Dolan saw more upside with Leon than Mills who was also losing fans confidence. More important the culture of knicks was not repaired and was seen league wide with little respect. Leon brings cred without the bravado.
Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Some of the things I've thought about:1.) Stockpiling draft picks, no matter where they fall in the first round, is essential. Not a single member of the Bucks core (Holiday, Giannis or Middleton) was drafted in the lottery. This seems to be an emerging trend set by previous champions like the Raptors. Even recent winners like the Spurs, Mavericks and the Warriors (pre-Durant) only had one top 8 pick to build around/with. Moving forward, I hope Rose is every hit as aggressive in seeking out first round picks as he is signing players to larger contracts.
2.) Even if you don't end up drafting players with those first round picks, they are essential in trading for the types of players that can be the lynchpin to your ultimate success (see Jrue Holiday trade). It's doubtful the Bucks would've been in contention for Holiday had they had a deficit of picks like we frequently had in the past.
3.) Player development is essential. We are a major market but it's unheard of to see a team build a title-team mostly through free agency (even the Heat already had Wade in 2010 to form their big 3; Lakers LeBron in 2019 to lure Anthony Davis via trade). Bucks drafted and developed Giannis and Middleton; while doing an excellent job in doing so with perpherial talent like Pat Connaughton, Dante DeVincinzo and Malcolm Brogdon (who they flipped for the pick that allowed them to dump dead contracts for George Hill; who they later flipped for Jrue Holiday).
It sucked to see Mike Miller, Kenny Atkinson and Josh Longstaff go. When they did, it felt like we stopped seeing dudes like Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin, Chris Copeland, Lance Thomas and Langston Galloway come off the street and make a meaningful difference. Johnny O'Bryant and co. seem to have recaptured some of that magic we had when those types of guys were around. I hope we figure out ways to keep developmental coaches that work on staff with competent underlings/support like the Raptors have with their 305 club (see their work with Pascal Siakim, Fred VanVleet, Norm Powell, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn etc.)
Sucked to see those guys go but they never proved themselves as top dogs while here. Atkinson did great becuase he had an owner and GM who saw the only way out was the develop over a few seasons. Build up capital and have cap space. They created opportunity. Mills in hindsight was not far off the mark as but was hurt by Fizdales inadequacy, and KP’s injury and subsequent betrayal. Perhaps Dolan saw more upside with Leon than Mills who was also losing fans confidence. More important the culture of knicks was not repaired and was seen league wide with little respect. Leon brings cred without the bravado.
Kenny Atkinson was an assistant coach under D'Antoni. During that stretch (2008-2012) guys like Bill Walker, Landry Fields, Jeremy Lin, Steve Novak, Chris Copeland, Earl Barron (albeit to a lesser extent), Toney Douglas, etc all came out of no where to play useful minutes for us (and fell off the Earth when he/they left). Obviously he wasn't alone in facilitating that but I suspect he played a key role in the process, considering the job he did with the Nets. None of those guys would win you a title outright BUT their contributions on the backend of a rotation/roster can swing a possession or two in the playoffs, which is sometimes all you need. Think about how clutch Pat Connaughtans (butchered his name) were in game 5 and 6 down the stretch for the Bucks. That's exactly the kind of inexpensive player you want once your core is set. To have someone develop that type of player is "top dog" work in my opinion because they can make the difference when it matters most.
I was out on Steve Mills from jump. That Hardaway contract was inexcusable and the Porzingis trade was ill-timed at the very least. What he signed in the wake of the 2019 offseason was a poo-poo latter that Thibs and company somehow managed to make competitive through excellent coaching. I'm still not sure what to make of Rose but certainly approve of the men he has around him.
Hardaway? Made average wage for a SG. Did he thrive here. He was thrust into 2nd option and did ok. When KP got hurt and he was 1st the leg started to be a problem. Not going to say it was great but hardly a franchise killer deal. His performance with Mav’s comes close to fulfilling his value. WE had a shyt team and he was our top player. Not good.
I thought Perry slowed down the Melo situation and with his cooperation (melo) had a sort of amicable split with reasonable value in return. One can second guess KP trade but you have to recreate the moment as it was and consider the cap space that was Randle.
NardDogNation wrote:Obviously helping a perennial league MVP candidate helps but franchises (like us) have had that before and whiffed on winning a championship. Just thought this might be a useful exercise to contemplate as we move into the offseason and beyond.
Chris Paul/Devin Booker are both deficient defensively. The Bucks added PJ Tucker and Jrue Holiday, both upticked their defense dramatically. Holiday is an elite defender and Tucker is one of the most versatile in the entire league.
When the Knicks draft, outside of Tier 1 and Tier 2 in the first round ( basically the top 4-5 picks), they need to start at a baseline of an above average defender to start. A top 5 pick might be able to produce offensively to the point where it will balance out a net negative defender. However past that point in the draft, the Knicks can't afford any more roleless zero defenders.
Greek Freak is an elite player, but he has some major flaws in his game. A better team than the Suns could have exposed it, but lots of injuries this playoff cycle.
The Knicks need to simplify all of their drafting. Eliminate everyone with fundamental problems. If your footwork is shit, it's not going to likely get better. Why bother dealing with a player with major fundamental flaws. Toppin is nothing but fundamental problems. Eliminate anyone who can't defend his own weight. If the player won't rate to, at minimum, a league average defender to START, then eliminate that player.
Get fundamental players who are above average defenders, preferably long wings, and hope the offense translates. And hope past that point, that a few of those guys break out into something more.
IMHO, player development is vastly misunderstood at the NBA level. In general, you can't take an objectively flawed player and make him a valuable player simply via coaching/training/teaching investment. People misunderstand Duncan Robinson. Spolestra is the best coach in the entire league and he didn't magically turn a UDFA castoff into someone valuable. The inherent ability to succeed in the NBA was already there. The Heat simply put Robinson in a setting where he had leg room to let it bloom. A draftees projectible CEILING can usually be sussed out his first year. Getting to 90 percent of that ceiling usually doesn't unfold, barring massive injury or some other strange circumstance, until the midpoint of a players third full season.
If someone says, "The Knicks did a horrible job of developing Knox!" that implies another team could have made him into something valuable simply by coaching/training/teaching investment. That's not true. Knox just sucks. Some players finally push towards usefulness when they have a "Come To Jesus" moment when their career is on the line. Most don't.
In a GENERAL SENSE regarding all draftees -
You can't fix untalented.
You can't fix lazy
You can't fix stupid
You can't fix someone who is a gigantic piece of shit
Knox is talented and while he's low BBIQ, he's not stupid and he's actually come across as a decent enough guy. But he's soft and lazy, so even just one of those issues can tank you.
Most people misunderstood the movie Moneyball. It's NOT a baseball movie. It has baseball in it and talks about baseball concepts, but it's not a baseball movie. Most people don't get when Brad Pitt says he hates losing more than he loves winning. Actual winning players and useful players are obsessive. Most people don't see the concept until they spend time in a fight gym. Doing something 10 thousand times to get it right so you can use it in a fight requires a certain level of obsession.
The great ones, the great players have a quiet fear that spirals that person into an almost rage like perpetual state. They don't see sweat equity and bloodshed as a choice. They see their competition as prey.
A lot of people don't know how to pick a prospect to draft. Some people are forced by their owners to pick a poor choice. Many more bring their own madness into the equation ( Michael Jordan picked draftees based on how they would complement his game when he played, in a different game style and a different environment and with different market realities in place)
The Knicks basically need someone like me in charge. Because I'm not going to try to fix untalented, lazy, stupid or pieces of shit. Huge balls, huge hands, huge heart, I'm what solves this franchise's problems for good.
RJ looks the part of that number 2 guy in about 2-3 years.. work on that mid range pull up and your off hand. The 17-20 footer should be automatic if he expects to be a 20+ ppg player. He already has figured out how to shoot a respectable 3 point percentage. He needs to work on his wiggle/separation and also stay above 75 percent at the line. If he gets these things he will be a 20+ppg player.
We Need to get more core glue guys (draft this year) and sign a top 10 player in the world lol
That’s all… we. Might come up short and lose in the finals but that’s only because we have still not been lucky enough to get the best player on the planet at that time to play for us.
If Randle play was not a a fluke and RJ develops to number 2 caliber player in theory we just need a top 10 player and we should make the finals minimally.
If we are using our picks this year they need to be core glue guys who can defend and perform 1 task at a high level.
If we are moving up they better be right about this 1 guy who will help up compete in a game 7 situation. (This player has to offer us (something significant) to winning games. If not draft 3-4 guys. Stash 2 in g league who need work.
Sign
1. floor general pg whom other teams has to minimally respect his offense.
2. A top 10 player in the league in 2022
We are starting to get all the pieces if everything I wrote comes toghethor.
Finals easy. We might lose though 😅
Side note: I see trading Toppin and a pick for sexton as a high upside gamble. It could work. It might fail. I’m not sure. ( I understand contractually how it can benefit us in many ways. I also see how sexton wouldn’t work out with us. I also see how he could turn out to be exactly what we need)
Ok Knicks front office your on the clock ⏰… time for you to show us your game…
And if we’re already going to look for a “recipe” how the Bucks won the title, it would be to have a lot of luck that your players are mostly healthy while other playoff teams lose player after player due to injury. Let’s not forget that Durant was close to almost alone (without Irvin and with Harden at probably 30 percent) throw out these Bucks who eventually took the title.
Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.
Ding, ding, ding!
And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.
2) Basketball is an efficiency game. A good defense takes away the opponents most efficient shots and maximizes its own offenses’ efficient shots. Thibs focuses heavily on defense but seems to ignore offense. This may be unfair to the extent that our team needed to learn certain basic skill sets. Bud did an amazing job with this Buck’s team getting them to both play good defense and efficient offense. Bud brings out the best in his players, putting them in the best position to be efficient.
3) If Giannis was in NY, we would be talking about his FT% more than anything else. We have Randle and all I can talk about is his 18 foot jump shot and his playoff failures. NY is unfair. Hell, I am unfair. We expect to go from worst in the league to champion with immediacy and demand perfection from players. If I weren’t watching Randle every game and just pulled up his stats, I’d be begging to sign him.
I’m rolling back to my original offseason plan and skipping the superhero theory of team development.
1) Re-Sign Rose as efficiently as possible.
2) Sign Ball. 18.5mm per. Good size, 3&D pg that will help with transition basketball. His time with Obi and Robinson will help them get easier transition buckets.
3) Sign Oubre. 18.5mm per. I still see upside. Like Randle. He needs opportunity and time in the gym with our coaches.
4) Bring back any of Noel, Bullock, Burks, Gibson that you can under friendly contracts. To the extent you can’t, accommodate S&T to get an asset if possible.
5) Draft wisely. Get deeper through the draft. Create foreign assets with additional picks.
6) Keep aiming to compete.
I think this team with Ball and Oubre instead of Payton and Bullock wins about 5 more games than last year. We may be a couple years from the elite teams, but I think this team can be gritty.
franco12 wrote:Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.Ding, ding, ding!
And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.
They mind as well because the knicks could never Develop, so young players rarely leveled up.
Didn't we draft his brother, or signed him?
knicks1248 wrote:franco12 wrote:Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.Ding, ding, ding!
And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.
They mind as well because the knicks could never Develop, so young players rarely leveled up.
Didn't we draft his brother, or signed him?
We did. Maybe hoped he’d grow also. he is not very good BTW. Every team needs a Chris Smith to keep the family happy.
Patience. Are we exercising this with Knox and Frank? LOL>………..
What they did was build a squad around a handful of guys who played defense, had size and and could shoot and they remained patient. They drafted DiVincenzo and Giannis... like all the other guys were good trades and smart signings.
Its gets validated in hindsight when you win a chip.
What did we learn about PHX? Draft, develope, then add to the young core.
They went from missing playoffs to finals! Bookers first trip to playoffs. Up 2-0 we compare to Kobe. Then “Still has a learning curve…..is young”. Same thing for Bridges. He has the championship pedigree but did not have a good series. Again, young and it takes time. Fact is teh window might have come and gone for them.
What did we learn? Many paths to take!!!!
And, Giannis is a freak after all!!!!
franco12 wrote:Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.Ding, ding, ding!
And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.
Just look at the people screaming to trade RJ, Obi, Mitch and our next 7/8 first round picks for Lillard
franco12 wrote:Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.Ding, ding, ding!
And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.
NY has always been a tough market for young players to develop. Pressures from fans and media always manage to reach the top. We want things now. There is a good chance that a kid with NO outside shot and terrible free throw may have not been given a shot in NY. Hoping that is not the case going forward.
The biggest difference for the Bucks, besides allowing Giannis to flourish, was that the guys they put around them were solid all star type players that all played well in playoffs. They had solid scoring options other than GA. Middleton is a guy no one is really mentioning. He played like a true max player. He was the guy that kept them from losing several key games with multiple big shots. Guy played like a first option. Holiday was another guy that played like he was a first option. He also had a great playoffs. He was a bull on the offensive side. More importantly, he was a big upgrade on defense end. Made it tough for most of the PGs he faced. Another player that gets no mention is Brook Lopez. He had several good games and was tough to deal with down low. He also made some big shots in key moments of big games. Not to mention that defensively, he kept guys like Capella from having big games. Lastly, bringing in Tucker was huge. And probably the piece most needed. Tucker is the ideal glue guy. Brought grit and toughness to a group that was not feared or known for its toughness. Every chip team needs a dog. Tucker was it.
Their FO should get all the credit. They put VERY good players around their franchise player. Guys that ALL played well when it counted. However, lets not forget, they were a KD toe away from the "It's time to move on from Giannis" talk. Especially with his air balls at the free throw line.