Knicks · OT: What would you do with Ben Simmons (page 6)

If the Sixers should just give Simmons whatever he wants, then how does any professional league function? Are you suggesting Cleveland and Memphis and Sacramento just has to rely on finding players volunteering to play for them, and that if players want to form superteams at their preferred destinations the Cleveland and Memphis and Sacramento should just accommodate them?

Because this happens all the time! I already posted the quote from Rose where he asked to be traded from the small market Pistons to the Knicks and the deal was for Dennis Smith Jr. No way the primary motivation was for equal value- it was simply recognition that he Rose wanted to play in New York. Harden also pushed for a trade to Brooklyn and instead Houston got a banged up Oladipo and a ticket to the lottery. Sometimes those deals work out- Paul George for Oladipo and Sabonis and Pau for Marc stick out， but in general the NBA has a long history of teams working with players to get them to preferred destinations，because the sport is dependent on effort.

gradyandrew wrote:

If the Sixers should just give Simmons whatever he wants, then how does any professional league function? Are you suggesting Cleveland and Memphis and Sacramento just has to rely on finding players volunteering to play for them, and that if players want to form superteams at their preferred destinations the Cleveland and Memphis and Sacramento should just accommodate them?

It doesn't happen ALL the time and sometimes when it happens (like in the case of Rose) the equity you earn in your career by the way you play for the teams you work for lends itself to teams working with you.

Bear in mind, we can black and white this as labor vs the evil forces of capitalism all we like, but it isn't like his teammates - also labor - is standing up for him.

He's quitting on them too.

but in general the NBA has a long history of teams working with players to get them to preferred destinations，because the sport is dependent on effort.

Indeed, and in many cases its effort that leads to teams paying the players the respect to work with them.

Not a fan of what Harden pulled either, btw.

Just because there is precedent, doesn't make it right.

I'm still left wondering how anyone can defend Simmon's conduct there.

Imagine if someone pulled a Steve Francis on the Knicks. Would be be supportive oof a top 3 pick just deciding he didn't want to lay for NY?

Maybe you would be, I'm really asking.

And he also sounds like someone who wasn't getting much phone action on a one-way, overpaid maxed out douche bag who is now documented as uncoachable on so many levels that Morey probably couldn't get anyone on the line who would swallow that contract without asking for 1st round picks out to 2035 while giving back used knee braces and some groupons for stale cheesesteaks.

Yes, corporate America is evil and the worker should prevail. We get it.

But sometimes your worker is an out and out idiot.

You keep saying there "seems" like there were deals, and "there must have been deals available" because others were traded. You're honestly lumping Lowry, Kemba, Derozan, even Westbrook in the same line of moron as Simmons now appears to be? With that contract? A dickhead who can't be bothered or EVEN SPOKEN TO about possibly learning how to take a jumpshot or a foulshot?

How many times does this have to be gone over?

Your opinion is what? Simmons's contract is negative value and Morey has to attach an asset to get rid of it? If Cleveland calls and sends an expiring Kevin Love out straight up for Simmons，Morey agrees?

Sure，Simmons sucks and is a moron and an idiot. What does that have to do with his trade request not being honored in good faith? The 76ers should punish him for not working on his jump shot? Walk me through your logic.

Mine is this: players ask for trades all the time and it be hooves GMs to honor them. Simmons asked out as soon as the season was over when there was ample time and opportunity to get a decent deal. Instead Morey decided to hold on to Ben and is now staying stupid shit like "I won't trade him for 4 years because I want Embiid to win a championship." And he still is saying "we need Ben back" like that is going to happen.

Knickoftime wrote:

Indeed, and in many cases its effort that leads to teams paying the players the respect to work with them.

Not a fan of what Harden pulled either, btw.

Just because there is precedent, doesn't make it right.

I'm still left wondering how anyone can defend Simmon's conduct there.

Imagine if someone pulled a Steve Francis on the Knicks. Would be be supportive oof a top 3 pick just deciding he didn't want to lay for NY?

Maybe you would be, I'm really asking.

I forgot about Steve Francis. There was no reservoir of good will involved in that trade，so I'm not sure how important that is. But yeah，players regularly (not all the time) ask for trades. The CBA in general does a good job with the league but there are definitely some places where it breaks down. If RJ had refused to play for NY and insisted on a trade to Toronto for OG Anounby and the Malachi Flynn pick- I would not be happy.

What's there to defend on Simmons conduct? End of season，asked for a trade. Since then 99% of the chatter has been from the 76ers. All they needed to say is "We're working on it." Instead they held on long enough to have to dock his pay and are now in a situation where hes there but a distraction. I don't get the vitriol some people have for Ben. Again，this is all more or less good news for the Knicks.

gradyandrew wrote:

And he also sounds like someone who wasn't getting much phone action on a one-way, overpaid maxed out douche bag who is now documented as uncoachable on so many levels that Morey probably couldn't get anyone on the line who would swallow that contract without asking for 1st round picks out to 2035 while giving back used knee braces and some groupons for stale cheesesteaks.

Yes, corporate America is evil and the worker should prevail. We get it.

But sometimes your worker is an out and out idiot.

You keep saying there "seems" like there were deals, and "there must have been deals available" because others were traded. You're honestly lumping Lowry, Kemba, Derozan, even Westbrook in the same line of moron as Simmons now appears to be? With that contract? A dickhead who can't be bothered or EVEN SPOKEN TO about possibly learning how to take a jumpshot or a foulshot?

How many times does this have to be gone over?

Your opinion is what? Simmons's contract is negative value and Morey has to attach an asset to get rid of it? If Cleveland calls and sends an expiring Kevin Love out straight up for Simmons，Morey agrees?

Sure，Simmons sucks and is a moron and an idiot. What does that have to do with his trade request not being honored in good faith?

Is the definition of "good faith" is its not unprecedented?

Not sure I understand the difference between good faith, no faith and bad faith trade request here.

Mine is this: players ask for trades all the time and it be hooves GMs to honor them.

Why does it behoove them?

gradyandrew wrote:What's there to defend on Simmons conduct? End of season，asked for a trade.

I tell my daughter all the time, doesn't ASK me for something if you'll throw a tantrum if the answer is no. You'e not REALLY asking.

A trade request made in "good faith" can be declined in good faith.

If it can't be, then it's a demand.

And you seem to be going out of our way to color a trade demand into something less than that.

Nalod wrote:My point is Morey is the voice. He speaks for ownership.
Drose wanted out of pistons when they came to realize Grif was cooked and the team going nowhere and wanted to givee young players run. He was a pending free agent.
Lets make this easy: How many allstar max players ask to be traded FROM a contending team?

Dwight Howard to LA? CP to Houston? I'm not 100% sure on those. There's enough difference to disagree. Ben's situation is unique.

gradyandrew wrote:

Nalod wrote:My point is Morey is the voice. He speaks for ownership.
Drose wanted out of pistons when they came to realize Grif was cooked and the team going nowhere and wanted to givee young players run. He was a pending free agent.
Lets make this easy: How many allstar max players ask to be traded FROM a contending team?

Dwight Howard to LA? CP to Houston? I'm not 100% sure on those. There's enough difference to disagree. Ben's situation is unique.

Did CP ask for the trade? Clips did not have Paul or Kwahai. Look at the moment. Was it specific to Rockets to play with Harden with MDA?
Howard had back surgery when? Not arguing. Just discussing.
I forgot Howards first trade From Orlando and what was going on at that moment.

Knickoftime wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:What's there to defend on Simmons conduct? End of season，asked for a trade.

I tell my daughter all the time, doesn't ASK me for something if you'll throw a tantrum if the answer is no. You'e not REALLY asking.

A trade request made in "good faith" can be declined in good faith.

If it can't be, then it's a demand.

And you seem to be going out of our way to color a trade demand into something less than that.

End of the season，before FA and the draft is the best time to ask for a trade. It's not like Harden where the trade demand came in at the end of the season.

It's interesting that you use a paternalistic analogy. It's more like a marriage (and the CBA revenue split supports that analogy). You can't force someone to stay married (all hail Henry viii)

Nalod wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

Nalod wrote:My point is Morey is the voice. He speaks for ownership.
Drose wanted out of pistons when they came to realize Grif was cooked and the team going nowhere and wanted to givee young players run. He was a pending free agent.
Lets make this easy: How many allstar max players ask to be traded FROM a contending team?

Dwight Howard to LA? CP to Houston? I'm not 100% sure on those. There's enough difference to disagree. Ben's situation is unique.

Did CP ask for the trade? Clips did not have Paul or Kwahai. Look at the moment. Was it specific to Rockets to play with Harden with MDA?
Howard had back surgery when? Not arguing. Just discussing.
I forgot Howards first trade From Orlando and what was going on at that moment.

Clips were more or less as close to contention as the 76ers. They later extended Blake that huge deal. Magic had made the Finals but then lost in the first round. Anyway，game time.

gradyandrew wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:What's there to defend on Simmons conduct? End of season，asked for a trade.

I tell my daughter all the time, doesn't ASK me for something if you'll throw a tantrum if the answer is no. You'e not REALLY asking.

A trade request made in "good faith" can be declined in good faith.

If it can't be, then it's a demand.

And you seem to be going out of our way to color a trade demand into something less than that.

End of the season，before FA and the draft is the best time to ask for a trade. It's not like Harden where the trade demand came in at the end of the season.

It's interesting that you use a paternalistic analogy. It's more like a marriage (and the CBA revenue split supports that analogy). You can't force someone to stay married (all hail Henry viii)

Again, doesn't matter when if you can't say no. Then it's a demand.

The CBA does not contain language that guarantees a team honor a trade demand nor does it give a team the sole authority to release a player without salary.

So yes, it's a like a marriage, but with a pre-nup. Ben Simmons CAN walk away if he likes. He just can't get his paycheck too.

Don't go there. I'm all for players negotiating better terms. But they have to be negotiated, some protections need to be in place for a league to exist in which players can earn and negotiate their rights.

Again, doesn't matter when if you can't say no. Then it's a demand

Morey clearly can and has said no, that's why this has dragged on for the last few months. I imagine that if Ben was allowed to negotiate a contract buy out at the beginning he would have been able to sign a FA contract. Instead， Morey decided he wanted to squeeze max value from his contract.

gradyandrew wrote:

Again, doesn't matter when if you can't say no. Then it's a demand

Morey clearly can and has said no, that's why this has dragged on for the last few months. I imagine that if Ben was allowed to negotiate a contract buy out at the beginning he would have been able to sign a FA contract. Instead， Morey decided he wanted to squeeze max value from his contract.

Why are we imagining now?

You seem to resent the fact, that yes, a League exists because one of the most significant assets of the league is the talent. The other is the league itself.

That fact there is 30 teams that employs 450 players on any given day rather than 150, the TV networks will pay billions to show games on TV is combination of the talent within the league structure.

They're inter-dependent and distribution of talent is a logical part of a competitive structure.

I mean player's want contracted security in case they tear an ACL and achilles, right?

Should teams be allowed to walk away from their players on a whim?

Isiah saw these problems coming 5 years ago

Knickoftime wrote:
Why are we imagining now?

You seem to resent the fact, that yes, a League exists because one of the most significant assets of the league is the talent. The other is the league itself.

That fact there is 30 teams that employs 450 players on any given day rather than 150, the TV networks will pay billions to show games on TV is combination of the talent within the league structure.

They're inter-dependent and distribution of talent is a logical part of a competitive structure.

I mean player's want contracted security in case they tear an ACL and achilles, right?

Should teams be allowed to walk away from their players on a whim?

I don't see the difference between Ben and Anthony Davis or Harden or Steve Francis or Russell Westbrook this past offseason. It's nice to imagine that players never ask to be traded，but it's part of the NBA.

I agree about the competitive structure of the NBA. It's hard to make the argument that whatever they are doing doesn't work. Milwaukee，Toronto，and the Spurs all won championships. Guys have asked for trades the whole time. The only difference here is that Morey has refused and rather than playing nice in the media has decided to play hard ball. Again，it's his prerogative. I disagree that Ben is the villain here.

gradyandrew wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:
Why are we imagining now?

You seem to resent the fact, that yes, a League exists because one of the most significant assets of the league is the talent. The other is the league itself.

That fact there is 30 teams that employs 450 players on any given day rather than 150, the TV networks will pay billions to show games on TV is combination of the talent within the league structure.

They're inter-dependent and distribution of talent is a logical part of a competitive structure.

I mean player's want contracted security in case they tear an ACL and achilles, right?

Should teams be allowed to walk away from their players on a whim?

I don't see the difference between Ben and Anthony Davis or Harden or Steve Francis or Russell Westbrook this past offseason. It's nice to imagine that players never ask to be traded，but it's part of the NBA.

I agree about the competitive structure of the NBA. It's hard to make the argument that whatever they are doing doesn't work. Milwaukee，Toronto，and the Spurs all won championships. Guys have asked for trades the whole time. The only difference here is that Morey has refused and rather than playing nice in the media has decided to play hard ball. Again，it's his prerogative. I disagree that Ben is the villain here.

The difference is that Harden and Davis wanted out after years of trying for a championship and failing and both players only had one more year on their deal. Simmons wants out right as the 76ers are pushing for a championship and with four more years left on his deal. Plus, the whole things looks like him just throwing a temper tantrum because he was criticized for shooting worse than Shaq at the FT line in the playoffs.

gradyandrew wrote:Philly had to send Embiid out to ask the fans to be nice to Ben. Tobias said first and foremost Ben is a human. Not sure where it's coming from，but don't you think this is the organization finally waking up to how poorly they handled this?
I'm not sure how much stock Simmons puts in those comments now. Much easier if they had been consistent all summer.

Yeah, it is quite a reversal in their messaging but I think it will prove to be futile. Simmons has shown that he is too thinned skinned to take the criticism and it does not matter what Embiid or the team says, the Philly fans are not letting it go. If they were in Portland or OKC, then maybe, but Philly fans are not cutting him any breaks.

At least it gives Philly a way out without looking weak. They can just say Simmons is mentally ill, so he should stay home until he “heals”, I.e. until we can trade him.