Thibs and Co. seem to be doing a good job bringing the best out of some. Not the only coach in the league that does this but its just damn refreshing its a knick thing.
Randle improvement was massive, RJ had a great slow but consistent improvements, etc.
Burks-Thibs-Staff just dialed in. Staff has to get a lot of credit.
Nalod wrote:Thibs and Co. seem to be doing a good job bringing the best out of some. Not the only coach in the league that does this but its just damn refreshing its a knick thing.
Randle improvement was massive, RJ had a great slow but consistent improvements, etc.
Burks-Thibs-Staff just dialed in. Staff has to get a lot of credit.
Ever since Leon Rose got here things have gotten much better. He has turned the franchise around
Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.
IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
knicks1248 wrote:Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
TT was properly recognized as COY. Randle was properly recognized as most improved and All NBA.
I think the oddsmakers see us not so much us falling but other teams imporoving. If season was longer it was likely Miami would have moved up, and we basically tied with ATL who was surging after firing its coach.
So being 6-7-8 is not that unreasonable. Indy had major issues and has a better coach. They were a big disappointment last season.
The odds makers don’t look at last season and simply seek to repeat.
Let’s be real. The “Odds” are Kemba who got dumped and bought out won’t play 75 games and be an all star. I hope I’m wrong BTW. Fournier is a very good addition, but not a “star”. Our yoot is imporoved. So is everyone else’s rookies from last year. Grimes and McBride are not game changers YET.
Nobody is predicting doom and gloom, but few think 4th seed is doable.
And, they might be wrong! Thibs is a great coach and this team likely will play to its ability and chemistry adds even a bit more. RJ’s turn to emerge. What is lost on most of us is players do it incrementally more often than not. Randle blew us away last year! That was great. RJ in his two years improvement is more week to week or month to month. Not very sexy but its steady. The kid won’t be the next Jordan but he is solid. I won’t project his ceiling because Im more fan than a scout.
martin wrote:Pretty good deep dive
On one hand, I'm a little worried he's a "Fluke Rule" guy, a player past the age of 28 who has a huge uptick in production. But looking at earlier seasons, I think he can still provide firepower off the bench even if he does have a dropoff. His scoring isn't needed as much with this team. I'm more worried about the long-term implication of him having to sub in at the wing and guard SFs. I'm hopeful Grimes progresses and Bacon shows enough to lessen the defensive load.
knicks1248 wrote:Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
I think a lot of prognosticators think the team's success was a product if the Covid shortened season. Also, a bunch of teams did get better. I don't understand why so many "experts" have the Celtics ahead of us, but Miami and Atlanta were pretty much at our level during the regular season. It's not out of the question that they might've passed the Knicks if the league played a normal schedule. Chicago is a wildcard, but they did make a jump in talent. Hornets could go either way, depending on how Hayward holds up. Who knows with Philly? I could see the Knicks leapfrogging them depending on how the Simmons mess plays out. I don't see the Wizards, Pacers as legit threats as they stand now.
The thing coach Tibs will ensure is that there is a consistency effort. Barring a major injury, that should be enough to get the team in the post-season, but it's not guaranteed.
Oddsmakers are just Money. Not talking heads.
I would not sleep on Pacers or ignore Wizards depth. Most predictions have knicks in a 4-5 team stance were its hard to say who stands out more than others.
Are we sleeping on Toronto because of last season? THey could be sneaky middle of the pack there with us.
Cleveland is not a push over. Doubt they a playoff team but improved.
Chicago? They improved over last season on paper. To what degree?
Hornets are talented and deeper.
ORlando. They can’t suck forever. Can Issac and Fultz come back? Are they playoff team? DOn’t know. But very well could be better.
The east is a bit top heavy and after that its going to be more of a dog fight. If you just go on last season mostly its ignoring what is happening or POTENTIAL. That’s all. Few are saying knicks took a step back but we did not leap forward ON PAPER. That’s allIM reading into this. Not all “Offended by espn hating media mafia who has it out for us”. Who cares, they play games, Win or lose.
It’s one thing to be all fan tough about things. Oddsmakers? That’s a different story. Would you put $10grand on Knicks to be 4 seed or higher? objectively I would not. Do I want them to finish high, even a chip? Of course. Would I put fun money on it? Sure, its fun. Real money? 10? 20? 30? Without all this considerations? I’m not a betting kind of guy. I never gamble. Not saying its a bad thing. Just not mine. So approach it as a business. I’d be looking into why pacers were disappointing last year rather than replicate the concept. I’d look into why Wiz made a strong ass run the last 20 games of last season and consider the depth.
Why Miami was slow to start? Etc.
Nalod wrote:I’d be looking into why pacers were disappointing last year rather than replicate the concept. I’d look into why Wiz made a strong ass run the last 20 games of last season and consider the depth.
Why Miami was slow to start? Etc.
Coaching played a role into why the Pacers disappointed last season. Lavert and Warren's health status is why I still remain skeptical. As for the Wiz, all you need to do is looks westward as to why they finished strong. I like Dinwiddie, but he's still a substantial drop-off from Russ. Even if Ruimakes a jump, it's not enough, to get them into the mix IMHO. Maybe Deni makes a huge jump? It's possible. Miami post Jimmy's return from injury were a different animal. I have to think Herro makes a bounce back. If Lowry has anything substantial left, they will be hella tough
Knicks will always have 4 guys on the court who can hit the open 3, drive past a too aggressive defender than pass out when the help defense comes. The missing ingredient is a center who can finish at the rim. If Mitchell comes back in pre injury form that's a check. While Noel was great defensively，his bobbled catches were an anomaly; prior to last season he was much better at the time. I don't think Burks or RJ should have a big drop off in 3 pt%，they most likely will continue to have a bunch of open looks. Don't underestimate the effects of switching Bullock and Payton for Kemba and Evan.
I think Thibs had this team playing as good as they could early on. His teams are just that kind of prepared. Drose really catapulted them beyond expectation. All a really good thing!
That he could do what he did with what he had was excellent.
I think we all shyt on payton alot and he obviously fell off as the season progressed. Lets face it, Payton did a good enough job for the team to still succeed.
My point is night after night the east is better. Westbrook and Beal played hero ball down the stretch but Bertans finnally got going helped. Not sure what Beal’s status is to play given his Vax status.
chicago might not play a lick of defense, but Donovan is a good coach and that team got better. The chemistry was not there either last season.
Lets just say a knick season 6 seed or better would be great. I hope they finish 1st and win 60 games myself. Im just not sleep ing on the rest of the east being what they were last year. Thibs bought a great culture here and we made a great jump. Just not amped like a WWE fanboy cutting the sleaves off my knick warmups wearing an orange headband and knick colors facepaint ready to call out anyone as a slacker hater for not being motivated enough to want a Chip. I won’t “bust”. its not much, but I have a life outside my knick fandom. I will never hang my self esteem tied to any sports team let alone become emotionally attached as I did in 1994. We had a new born in the house, I watched every single playoff game and a piece of me died when OJ ran about Los Angelous and then next game Starks ran amuck. We got little sleep as my daughter was born in mid April that year. There was this miracle of beauty that was her and here my team fell flat. It hurt, but the contrast was there. Live goes on and it thrives.
Knicks basketball is great entertainment and I bust for nobody but my family and my clients.
Jmpasq wrote:Nalod wrote:Thibs and Co. seem to be doing a good job bringing the best out of some. Not the only coach in the league that does this but its just damn refreshing its a knick thing.
Randle improvement was massive, RJ had a great slow but consistent improvements, etc.
Burks-Thibs-Staff just dialed in. Staff has to get a lot of credit.
Ever since Leon Rose got here things have gotten much better. He has turned the franchise around
The turn around started before. The media was just going with the lazy “lolz knickz” narrative.
Knicks drafted RJ, signed Randle and got rid of the diva cancer KP
BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:I’d be looking into why pacers were disappointing last year rather than replicate the concept. I’d look into why Wiz made a strong ass run the last 20 games of last season and consider the depth.
Why Miami was slow to start? Etc.
Coaching played a role into why the Pacers disappointed last season. Lavert and Warren's health status is why I still remain skeptical. As for the Wiz, all you need to do is looks westward as to why they finished strong. I like Dinwiddie, but he's still a substantial drop-off from Russ. Even if Ruimakes a jump, it's not enough, to get them into the mix IMHO. Maybe Deni makes a huge jump? It's possible. Miami post Jimmy's return from injury were a different animal. I have to think Herro makes a bounce back. If Lowry has anything substantial left, they will be hella tough
Not to mention the previous coach McMillan also subsequently went to Atlanta and did an excellent job
BigDaddyG wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
I think a lot of prognosticators think the team's success was a product if the Covid shortened season. Also, a bunch of teams did get better. I don't understand why so many "experts" have the Celtics ahead of us, but Miami and Atlanta were pretty much at our level during the regular season. It's not out of the question that they might've passed the Knicks if the league played a normal schedule. Chicago is a wildcard, but they did make a jump in talent. Hornets could go either way, depending on how Hayward holds up. Who knows with Philly? I could see the Knicks leapfrogging them depending on how the Simmons mess plays out. I don't see the Wizards, Pacers as legit threats as they stand now.
The thing coach Tibs will ensure is that there is a consistency effort. Barring a major injury, that should be enough to get the team in the post-season, but it's not guaranteed.
Every team in the league had the same shorten season.
ATL is another perfect example of how one coach had the team playing avg to below avg, another coach came in with the same exact roster and had the 2nd best record in the NBA to finish the season. So they should improve but we can't despite better talent.
There's no doubt in my mind that this team can win 50+ games
knicks1248 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
I think a lot of prognosticators think the team's success was a product if the Covid shortened season. Also, a bunch of teams did get better. I don't understand why so many "experts" have the Celtics ahead of us, but Miami and Atlanta were pretty much at our level during the regular season. It's not out of the question that they might've passed the Knicks if the league played a normal schedule. Chicago is a wildcard, but they did make a jump in talent. Hornets could go either way, depending on how Hayward holds up. Who knows with Philly? I could see the Knicks leapfrogging them depending on how the Simmons mess plays out. I don't see the Wizards, Pacers as legit threats as they stand now.
The thing coach Tibs will ensure is that there is a consistency effort. Barring a major injury, that should be enough to get the team in the post-season, but it's not guaranteed.
Every team in the league had the same shorten season.
ATL is another perfect example of how one coach had the team playing avg to below avg, another coach came in with the same exact roster and had the 2nd best record in the NBA to finish the season. So they should improve but we can't despite better talent.
There's no doubt in my mind that this team can win 50+ games
No doubt. Thibs and McMillan both showed last season coaching still makes a difference in the nba
What I like about our roster is not only is it 10 guys deep but all 10 can do damage. Burks, Quickley, Obi etc can come off the bench and put up 20+ points
knicks1248 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Its ridiculous that the odd makers don't take coaching into consideration. It was the primary reason we won 20 more games then they anticipated last season.IMO talent is one thing, but coaching is everything and I don't want to give TT all the credit because Leon put together a hell'uve staff, they did a great job developing most of these players and putting them in a position to be successful.
I think a lot of prognosticators think the team's success was a product if the Covid shortened season. Also, a bunch of teams did get better. I don't understand why so many "experts" have the Celtics ahead of us, but Miami and Atlanta were pretty much at our level during the regular season. It's not out of the question that they might've passed the Knicks if the league played a normal schedule. Chicago is a wildcard, but they did make a jump in talent. Hornets could go either way, depending on how Hayward holds up. Who knows with Philly? I could see the Knicks leapfrogging them depending on how the Simmons mess plays out. I don't see the Wizards, Pacers as legit threats as they stand now.
The thing coach Tibs will ensure is that there is a consistency effort. Barring a major injury, that should be enough to get the team in the post-season, but it's not guaranteed.
Every team in the league had the same shorten season.
ATL is another perfect example of how one coach had the team playing avg to below avg, another coach came in with the same exact roster and had the 2nd best record in the NBA to finish the season. So they should improve but we can't despite better talent.
There's no doubt in my mind that this team can win 50+ games
Yep, it’s early but they are playing “beautiful basketball” aka the 2014 Spurs. That’s a style designed to get wins when you don’t got the most talent. It’s just really good basketball. So I have high hopes for this team. I think they overachieve again.
Jmpasq wrote:Nalod wrote:Thibs and Co. seem to be doing a good job bringing the best out of some. Not the only coach in the league that does this but its just damn refreshing its a knick thing.
Randle improvement was massive, RJ had a great slow but consistent improvements, etc.
Burks-Thibs-Staff just dialed in. Staff has to get a lot of credit.
Ever since Leon Rose got here things have gotten much better. He has turned the franchise around
coming from a guy who's trashed every one of his moves up to Kemba. Suddenly after that its been nothing but spring flowers
gradyandrew wrote:Knicks will always have 4 guys on the court who can hit the open 3, drive past a too aggressive defender than pass out when the help defense comes. The missing ingredient is a center who can finish at the rim. If Mitchell comes back in pre injury form that's a check. While Noel was great defensively，his bobbled catches were an anomaly; prior to last season he was much better at the time. I don't think Burks or RJ should have a big drop off in 3 pt%，they most likely will continue to have a bunch of open looks. Don't underestimate the effects of switching Bullock and Payton for Kemba and Evan.
Its puzzling why anyone thinks we would take a step back from last year. Its literally the same time with nothing but improvements:
Fournier moves into RJ's role
RJ moves to Bullock's role
Kemba replaces ELF
Grimes/McBride replace Frank
Obi/IQ spent the summer playing in the SL and working out with the coaches and it shows
We are big, athletic, have a great balance of youth/vets, are well coached, will have a top 5 defense, have a ton of guys who can both shoot and drive and dish. Noel is a good rim protector and his bad offense is better hidden with the above upgrades. A healthy Mitch would really be a nice piece. Im hoping for 60 games and 28mpg averages from Rose/Kemba (Rose averaged 27mpg last year). I think when one misses time the other will hit 30 minutes and the rest of the time it will mostly be a 24/24 split which is great.
Kemba has defensive liabilities and his shot selection is often suspect but he really gives you another option late in games and single possession situations
As for Burks he was a straight up sniper last year. I dont know if those %s are sustainable but damn if he doesnt look like a high end rotation guy. He's not a great defender but he's surely willing and earns his time. He has good moments and is a high IQ player on both ends. He can play 1/2/3 off the bench and if anyone got hurt could be a nice spot starter at the 2/3 and give you a great game
Someone asked me late last season what kind of player Burks was, and I told them he is kind of like Kobe 1/4 of the time. Maybe a bit weird to say, but I think its right- he's a guy who can get his own shot in a variety of different ways- drive to the hoop, pull up, shoot, go back to basket. 1 in 4 games he looks unstoppable scoring the ball. When he has it going he can break down a defense and create opportunities for others as well. He is a shotmaker who can light up the scoreboard, but he's not consistent enough to do it every night, or otherwise he'd be a superstar. But he's the perfect guy off the bench who can come in and close games with his offense. What I found good about Burks last year is aside from the potential for instant offense he was reliable as a defender (not a shut down guy, but gave an effort) and also as a primary ballhandler, so even in games where he wasn't an alpha scoring the ball, he helped.
Honestly I didn't think that we'd be re-signing him since he played himself to a much better contract, but its nice to have him here. With Kemba also in the fold, I think his role will diminish, but Given the Kemba/Rose connection is on creaky knees, having Burks as a fallback is important.
VDesai wrote:Someone asked me late last season what kind of player Burks was, and I told them he is kind of like Kobe 1/4 of the time. Maybe a bit weird to say, but I think its right- he's a guy who can get his own shot in a variety of different ways- drive to the hoop, pull up, shoot, go back to basket. 1 in 4 games he looks unstoppable scoring the ball. When he has it going he can break down a defense and create opportunities for others as well. He is a shotmaker who can light up the scoreboard, but he's not consistent enough to do it every night, or otherwise he'd be a superstar. But he's the perfect guy off the bench who can come in and close games with his offense. What I found good about Burks last year is aside from the potential for instant offense he was reliable as a defender (not a shut down guy, but gave an effort) and also as a primary ballhandler, so even in games where he wasn't an alpha scoring the ball, he helped.Honestly I didn't think that we'd be re-signing him since he played himself to a much better contract, but its nice to have him here. With Kemba also in the fold, I think his role will diminish, but Given the Kemba/Rose connection is on creaky knees, having Burks as a fallback is important.
he was way better than 1/4 though... much more like 1/2:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...And you can see it goes for stretches... what he is is streaky. He gets stretches where he gives you 20 a night and follows it with cold stretches but he surely never sulks, always plays hard, is a good ball mover when his shot isnt falling and still makes the high IQ plays. He's a guy you could see having a bad night and hitting a couple huge shots late.
I think his price point is perfect as is his bench role. When he's hitting he's a legit impact player. Thats what I love so much about our bench scoring... on a nightly basis Rose/Burks/IQ can all go off, and when they arent they are doing other good things. I am really excited about our team depth and the guys we have. Its a really likable squad 
fishmike wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Knicks will always have 4 guys on the court who can hit the open 3, drive past a too aggressive defender than pass out when the help defense comes. The missing ingredient is a center who can finish at the rim. If Mitchell comes back in pre injury form that's a check. While Noel was great defensively，his bobbled catches were an anomaly; prior to last season he was much better at the time. I don't think Burks or RJ should have a big drop off in 3 pt%，they most likely will continue to have a bunch of open looks. Don't underestimate the effects of switching Bullock and Payton for Kemba and Evan.
Its puzzling why anyone thinks we would take a step back from last year. Its literally the same time with nothing but improvements:
Fournier moves into RJ's role
RJ moves to Bullock's role
Kemba replaces ELF
Grimes/McBride replace Frank
Obi/IQ spent the summer playing in the SL and working out with the coaches and it showsWe are big, athletic, have a great balance of youth/vets, are well coached, will have a top 5 defense, have a ton of guys who can both shoot and drive and dish. Noel is a good rim protector and his bad offense is better hidden with the above upgrades. A healthy Mitch would really be a nice piece. Im hoping for 60 games and 28mpg averages from Rose/Kemba (Rose averaged 27mpg last year). I think when one misses time the other will hit 30 minutes and the rest of the time it will mostly be a 24/24 split which is great.
Kemba has defensive liabilities and his shot selection is often suspect but he really gives you another option late in games and single possession situations
As for Burks he was a straight up sniper last year. I dont know if those %s are sustainable but damn if he doesnt look like a high end rotation guy. He's not a great defender but he's surely willing and earns his time. He has good moments and is a high IQ player on both ends. He can play 1/2/3 off the bench and if anyone got hurt could be a nice spot starter at the 2/3 and give you a great game
Question is not did we step back, but did the other teams move forward and what about the dynmamics that perhaps we did well avoiding that in which other teams fell upon last season? About everything went well for us and simply can’t just build off that and assume better without consideration of the other teams. They did not simply stay the same. No sense arguing/debate it will all get sorted out. Im happy with our off season and fascinated with how it all plays out. Im not sleeping on other teams and what their POTENTIAL is. Not a diss on our guys.
