Knicks · Tom T needs to step up 2 (page 1)

How hard is to see that obi Shouod be getting 25 min?

Why do we have to play the centers 48 min. Golden state doesn’t even play a c 1 minute. Defense is energy and kind set. But mitch and Noel can’t bring two way energy for 48 min. Give 12-14 to obi

I agree with you Briggs but we are in the minority on this board. Thibs is playing Randle 37-38 minutes a game again and we saw how that worked out in the postseason. Many here think Obi is a gimmick and dunker only. He passes the ball and he is starting to put the ball on the floor, and I like the way he and Noel work together. Would love to see Obi play more minute with RJ, as that worked well in the 1st Orlando game. He brings energy to the Garden but Thibs doesn’t value him no matter what he says because go away from the ball D looks suspect. Thibs will never trust him to extend his minutes which is disappointing.

Typo there, meant to say his away from the ball D is suspect.

another thread on the topic? I agree, but you know we kinda got to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt for last year's record.

But I do think it's fair to call him out on the number of minutes Randle is getting. We need better performance out of Randle and his play has been a bit erratic. If we're going to let Randle play through mistakes and turnovers, how about we give the same shot to Obi.

I'll also say Thibs has got to work on putting these players into a better position to get easy baskets.

franco12 wrote:another thread on the topic? I agree, but you know we kinda got to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt for last year's record.

But I do think it's fair to call him out on the number of minutes Randle is getting. We need better performance out of Randle and his play has been a bit erratic. If we're going to let Randle play through mistakes and turnovers, how about we give the same shot to Obi.

I'll also say Thibs has got to work on putting these players into a better position to get easy baskets.

The additions of Toppin and Grimes are the natural avenue to improve the team. Over compensation on Randle isn’t good for the team or Randle. It’s up to the coach to find balance.

Depends on the matchup.

But most teams have a pure C or legit 7 footer starting at C. Are you suggesting we put Randle on him. That's not going to work. Randle is a lazy defender and he has tendency to foul. Conversely, Mitch and/or Noel are rim protectors and, theoretically shouldn't be foul prone in the post (Mitch has gotten much better at that). You put in Obi to upgrade the offense but you sacrifice fouls on Randle and a major dip on defense. It sounds great when you imagine what Obi can do against most PFs when he's on and what Randle can do against most C's when he's on, but in reality it's going to be a complete disaster if you are facing a legit big man at C.

And the fact is that Toppin is still an inconsistent shooter which prevents him from forcing great floor spacing when he is on the court.

Should he get more minutes? Maybe. He's been playing really well. And I personally don't think he's a bad defender when up against a SF or PF. But not nec. changing the starting lineup or doubling his minutes.

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Normally I would say this is not on Thibs but on players having terrible defense but I think this time Thibs has a role in it. We only switched 2 players. Those players have gone games not getting much playing time due to playing poorly and team defense was still poor. We have good defenders stuck on the bench who until last night never got to sniff real game action. McBride still has not gotten any action but Grimes came in for his 1st real NBA action and showed right away he can help us on BOTH sides of the floor. Remember these guys also got next to no preseason time either. It is amazing how well Grimes has done with so little burn. We are already bottom of the league in regards to defense. If we don't want to give the defenders on our team a try we will be fighting for last in defense before too long.

Clean wrote:

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Normally I would say this is not on Thibs but on players having terrible defense but I think this time Thibs has a role in it. We only switched 2 players. Those players have gone games not getting much playing time due to playing poorly and team defense was still poor. We have good defenders stuck on the bench who until last night never got to sniff real game action. McBride still has not gotten any action but Grimes came in for his 1st real NBA action and showed right away he can help us on BOTH sides of the floor. Remember these guys also got next to no preseason time either. It is amazing how well Grimes has done with so little burn. We are already bottom of the league in regards to defense. If we don't want to give the defenders on our team a try we will be fighting for last in defense before too long.

Wow! Kind of explains why some players are shooting the lights-out against us.

Uptown wrote:

Clean wrote:

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Normally I would say this is not on Thibs but on players having terrible defense but I think this time Thibs has a role in it. We only switched 2 players. Those players have gone games not getting much playing time due to playing poorly and team defense was still poor. We have good defenders stuck on the bench who until last night never got to sniff real game action. McBride still has not gotten any action but Grimes came in for his 1st real NBA action and showed right away he can help us on BOTH sides of the floor. Remember these guys also got next to no preseason time either. It is amazing how well Grimes has done with so little burn. We are already bottom of the league in regards to defense. If we don't want to give the defenders on our team a try we will be fighting for last in defense before too long.

Wow! Kind of explains why some players are shooting the lights-out against us.

this is the defense from before Thibs got here. Old habits hard to break? Or do opposing coaches have us figured out?

On the flip side, we are bottom of league in defense and stil 6-4

Uptown wrote:

Clean wrote:

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Normally I would say this is not on Thibs but on players having terrible defense but I think this time Thibs has a role in it. We only switched 2 players. Those players have gone games not getting much playing time due to playing poorly and team defense was still poor. We have good defenders stuck on the bench who until last night never got to sniff real game action. McBride still has not gotten any action but Grimes came in for his 1st real NBA action and showed right away he can help us on BOTH sides of the floor. Remember these guys also got next to no preseason time either. It is amazing how well Grimes has done with so little burn. We are already bottom of the league in regards to defense. If we don't want to give the defenders on our team a try we will be fighting for last in defense before too long.

Wow! Kind of explains why some players are shooting the lights-out against us.

Boy am I glad Frank is no longer around

Obi increases the pace and ball movement simply by his style of play. We need more of that as D.Rose is our fastest pace player and he's like 43 :)

Bullock was an excellent cog in our defensive scheme - he rotated well and was a glue guy. I don't think Fournier is doing especially bad as I think the difference lies with Payton being replaced by Kemba. He's slow on close outs and is vertically challenged at times. I also see Randle going half speed at times and if could realize he doesn't need to carry us offensively as much this year - he could work harder on the defensive end.

Watch these highlights carefully. Some guys get nights like these from making big time plays outta nothing but this was so easy that its unforgivable. So much lack of concentration and effort from almost the whole team outside of Grimes. Barrett, Rose, Randle, and Fournier were the biggest culprits but ffs these guys arn't taking pride in their D and Thibs needs to communicate that.

because there's 48 minutes and you didnt mention who sits.

Guy is COY but 10 games in Briggs has a better plan.

Thibbs needs to tell Randle to focus on lowering his turnovers and moving the ball. Too much iso. As far as Obi, I agree that he probably needs 20-25 minutes and a good chunk should come from Randle. Play Randle 30 minutes, give Obi 18 minutes there and 3-7 minutes at PF with Randle playing center.

Also, Walker and Fournier have to up their defensive intensity. Not much Thibs can do other than sit them when they don’t bring it.

TheGame wrote:Thibbs needs to tell Randle to focus on lowering his turnovers and moving the ball. Too much iso. As far as Obi, I agree that he probably needs 20-25 minutes and a good chunk should come from Randle. Play Randle 30 minutes, give Obi 18 minutes there and 3-7 minutes at PF with Randle playing center.

Also, Walker and Fournier have to up their defensive intensity. Not much Thibs can do other than sit them when they don’t bring it.

Hard to that when you don't exactly have Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen on the bench.

knicks1248 wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibbs needs to tell Randle to focus on lowering his turnovers and moving the ball. Too much iso. As far as Obi, I agree that he probably needs 20-25 minutes and a good chunk should come from Randle. Play Randle 30 minutes, give Obi 18 minutes there and 3-7 minutes at PF with Randle playing center.

Also, Walker and Fournier have to up their defensive intensity. Not much Thibs can do other than sit them when they don’t bring it.

Hard to that when you don't exactly have Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen on the bench.

Or some young defensive first guard whose offense was undeveloped.
We traded some defense for offense. Maybe Thibs and the knicks need more time for this transformation?
We think just because most of the cornerstone player are returning we assume we continue from last season.
nope, we turned up the dial.
our rim protectors are frangile and injury have effected us.
Or offense is inconsistant. So is half the league.
Our defense gives 3 pt shots generously. You can defend that, but there is a cost.
Right 1248, you do understand that there is a cost. sending your rim protector to the perimeter does what?
Cause and effect.

knicks1248 wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibbs needs to tell Randle to focus on lowering his turnovers and moving the ball. Too much iso. As far as Obi, I agree that he probably needs 20-25 minutes and a good chunk should come from Randle. Play Randle 30 minutes, give Obi 18 minutes there and 3-7 minutes at PF with Randle playing center.

Also, Walker and Fournier have to up their defensive intensity. Not much Thibs can do other than sit them when they don’t bring it.

Hard to that when you don't exactly have Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen on the bench.

wish we still had Moe Harkless. Felt we should have found a way to keep him.

I know we're struggling to find Obi minutes - but I felt Moe was that Defense Glue Role Player with a bigger impact than stats show that helps win games.

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TheGame wrote:Thibbs needs to tell Randle to focus on lowering his turnovers and moving the ball. Too much iso. As far as Obi, I agree that he probably needs 20-25 minutes and a good chunk should come from Randle. Play Randle 30 minutes, give Obi 18 minutes there and 3-7 minutes at PF with Randle playing center.

Also, Walker and Fournier have to up their defensive intensity. Not much Thibs can do other than sit them when they don’t bring it.

Hard to that when you don't exactly have Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen on the bench.

wish we still had Moe Harkless. Felt we should have found a way to keep him.

I know we're struggling to find Obi minutes - but I felt Moe was that Defense Glue Role Player with a bigger impact than stats show that helps win games.

Whose minutes doe we take? RJ? Burkes?
Is the individual talent the issue or our defensive schematic? We have one loose string on defense and it looks bad but what is the switch or the passing lane that is vulnerable that we are not executing? Im asking as a fan becuase I assume our team of coaches understand the issue.
I’ll take a small stab: Elf Payton length was a nice asset in our defense and I’ll guess covers it better than Kemba. Rose visually is a good defender but we all know the play that teams run against us (seems like its all game) that gets us out of position and leaves guys that can hit wide open. So what is leading up to that space? How are they freeing up that guy and THATS how you cover it. Making a trade won’t fix it.
I’ll guess again that Evan is not making early reads. Maybe he gets it later in the season instinctively. Maybe Walker gets lost?
We are seeing the symptom of that missed coverage. Having rim protectors NOT leave the paint is part of the issue and teams are taking advantage of it. And if they do they will open up or easy baskets elsewhere.
its not the corner three, its the long wing/elbow shot. Thats a harder shot than the corner. We are getting killed. Danny Green and the Turkish kid were all lining up on it.

Yet, we still won. Im not a chaulk board ex coach kind of fan but I know it exists and the team knows the issue. They might know how to stop it but execution is a differnt animal. Trades to fix every problem is rarely a cure.
We judge Kemba by his offense but he might not be up to the task of defending. Evan might give us indidual effort but he has to acclimate to what Thibs wants. That MIGHT be an issue 11 games in. IQ? McBride has great one on one defenseive skills, but how is he at switching? Think teams won’t test him on that?

Bottom line. At the moment our defense is not executing. Does that mean trades? Practice? Make some adjustments? Keep practicing it? Its inconsistant. seems a team has have an unheralded shooter career day to beat us. Maybe for now we live with that. We 7-4. That not to say we can for the rest of the season.

Last night was not the night to experiment with Obi and Randle. Philly had Drummond and 4 guards, all who can shoot the three. Bad match up. We gotta straighten out our team defense first and foremost. Obi will get his time. Right now it's difficult cause he's playing behind an All-Star and we need to play Randle as much as possible. Especially in games where he's not getting much help offensively.

Our Centers can't or won't guard the perimeter....

When screens happen and the ball swings, you will see us double or trap ball handlers, if that ball handler manages to pass that ball right before the trap, someone is going to get an open 3, and are bigs are not quick enough to race out and challenge the shot.

What we miss about bullock and payton was their speed to challenge perimeter shots