Knicks · Thibs, Miller, Fizdale, Hornacek, Rambis, Fisher, Woodson, DAntoni, Isiah, Larry Brown, Lenny, Herb, Chaney... (page 1)

Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

Thank you, Fish. My thoughts exactly.

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

I hesitate given the current state of the team but the question is how to fix it and is Thibs really unbendable to work with a FO that is forward thinking.
His hiring he was all about accepting change as the game and perhaps even he has "evolved". If not, its the same old Thibs and thats not a terrible thing, but he is not in synch with his front office.
He wanted help at the deadline. He got got that "Larry Brown" kind of win now mentality. not a bad thing. But he needs a bit more "Pop" in him to also accept being forward thinking to what this roster is.

If our FO is not happy with him and with reason, then he got to go. If he is with reason then it needs to be mitigated perhaps with compromise.
What is the goal? Play in? Development? What does FO vision for next years roster? Then does Thibs still the best man for the job? Sure its easy to say "lets move on" but what is the goal, and if not Thibs who is the best man for the job?

For me it's all about if Thibs is willing to pivot/adjust. He's a very solid coach and deserves credit for helping our players learn how to play hard and try to win each night. It's not his fault we are talent-limited, but it will be if he keeps on the same path and isn't open to adjusting/change.

100% agree consistency is needed. This is year 2, and there was a pretty sizeable surplus of goodwill with Coach to weather this storm. Biggest case for him right now is that the team has not quit on him. This is not Melo/JR turning their backs on Woodson.

Let's be clear when we complain that Thibs won't play the kids - we mean Obi. To a lesser extent, Deuce.
RJ right up there with Randle for minutes. 23 year old Mitch is on the floor til he's panting. IQ on the floor when he's hot. Grimes now a fringe starter.

Maybe we force an assistant on him in the off-season, but there's nothing to be gained by axing him now IMO.

I'm still 110% behind Thibs. I'd be really disappointed if he were fired. If we fire him, we will suffer the same fate that the Wolves did when they fired him and when we fired Woody. You don't get rid of good coaches!

This disappointing season is not all on Thibs. Could he do some things a little better? Possibly. But ultimately, this roster is what it is. At the very best, it's a .500 team with Rose and Noel and Randle playing at a high level. I don't think any other coach would do that much better. The roster construction is the biggest issue imo and that doesn't fall on Thibs.

Which one of these didn't deserve to be gone though:

Miller, Fizdale, Hornacek, Rambis, Fisher, Woodson, DAntoni, Isiah, Larry Brown, Lenny, Herb, Chaney

I'd say Woodson (Miller doesn't count as he wasn't fired). D'Antoni quit as it was either him or Melo. If this would honestly play the young players more we'd all be fine, but whatever he's been doing the last few weeks has to stop- it's not the losing that's the issue for me, it's the front office/Thibs conflict, complete double standards with the players playing time, and the bone headed refusal to give the young players more minutes to develop when we're clearly not winning anything anytime soon. Also his inability to manage minutes, adjust sufficiently or experiment enough is maddening.

jskinny35 wrote:For me it's all about if Thibs is willing to pivot/adjust. He's a very solid coach and deserves credit for helping our players learn how to play hard and try to win each night. It's not his fault we are talent-limited, but it will be if he keeps on the same path and isn't open to adjusting/change.

100%. This is the time, especially if FO and team is out of the playoff picture

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:For me it's all about if Thibs is willing to pivot/adjust. He's a very solid coach and deserves credit for helping our players learn how to play hard and try to win each night. It's not his fault we are talent-limited, but it will be if he keeps on the same path and isn't open to adjusting/change.

100%. This is the time, especially if FO and team is out of the playoff picture

What adjustments are we talking about?

smackeddog wrote:Which one of these didn't deserve to be gone though:

Miller, Fizdale, Hornacek, Rambis, Fisher, Woodson, DAntoni, Isiah, Larry Brown, Lenny, Herb, Chaney

I'd say Woodson (Miller doesn't count as he wasn't fired). D'Antoni quit as it was either him or Melo. If this would honestly play the young players more we'd all be fine, but whatever he's been doing the last few weeks has to stop- it's not the losing that's the issue for me, it's the front office/Thibs conflict, complete double standards with the players playing time, and the bone headed refusal to give the young players more minutes to develop when we're clearly not winning anything anytime soon. Also his inability to manage minutes, adjust sufficiently or experiment enough is maddening.

I'd definitely say Woody should have gotten one more season and I didn't think Chaney or Wilkens did a bad job either. But both Chaney and Wilkens were fired cause Isiah Thomas was an idiot.

I look at this depressing list of coaches and I cannot believe firing someone like Thibs is even being talked about!

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

+1

Or developing the yoots or playing them enough or putting them in situations where they can succeed or helping them to make others better, or creating a safer society and a better country and a nicer world and a friendlier solar system and...

Dumping shit on someone like Fizdale is one thing. Playing lets pile on the rabbit with the COT fucking Y is a bit much.

SergioNYK wrote:

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:For me it's all about if Thibs is willing to pivot/adjust. He's a very solid coach and deserves credit for helping our players learn how to play hard and try to win each night. It's not his fault we are talent-limited, but it will be if he keeps on the same path and isn't open to adjusting/change.

100%. This is the time, especially if FO and team is out of the playoff picture

What adjustments are we talking about?

I think all of the ones we would expect: More Obi, Cam, McBride. Less Kemba, Burks, Randle.

I am really against firing Thibs for the following reasons:

1) Firing the coach each year or two does not build team cohesion or consistency
2) There is no clear better candidate to replace him
3) I doubt even Pat Riley would have done much with this roster
4) Teams sometimes outperform (last year), sometimes underperform (this year), it evens out over the longer term
5) The team may be in a tailspin, but this may actually be good, since the season is lost anyway and tanking is now the best strategy

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Amazingly Woj drops a podcast about the Cavs who were in a similar situation we are in now. Woj had the Cavaliers President of Basketball Operations Koby Altman on his podcast. They talk about being in the same situation we are in now. A coach too worried about wins and losses and not enough about young player development. Beilein was too obsessed with winning when they weren’t good enough. He was clashing with front office, who wanted to give the young guys time to learn and grow. He wouldn’t oblige so he was fired after just 54 games into a 5 year contract for young up and comer JB Bickerstaff. The part talking about this starts at 28 minute mark. They talk about the importance of young player development. He talks about young guards needing to get "bashed in the head" and have a "trial by fire" to learn how to play in the NBA. Sounds familiar huh?

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The Cavs prioritized player development and got beat on but while people were making fun of their record they were building their young players while getting a draft pick high enough that they could draft a difference maker. People love the Cavs now but don't want to do the same thing that put the Cavs in this position.

ESOMKnicks wrote:I am really against firing Thibs for the following reasons:

1) Firing the coach each year or two does not build team cohesion or consistency
2) There is no clear better candidate to replace him
3) I doubt even Pat Riley would have done much with this roster
4) Teams sometimes outperform (last year), sometimes underperform (this year), it evens out over the longer term
5) The team may be in a tailspin, but this may actually be good, since the season is lost anyway and tanking is now the best strategy

A large problem here needs to become a point of accountability for Leon Rose. The buck stops with him for this franchise right now.

If you know you need to tank and rebuild, you don't hire a veteran coach who is built to try to win now and will push for a heavy veteran roster and rotation. But if you do hire that coach, who is a Defense First/Defense Always guy, you need to give him better tools than someone like Obi Toppin ( just a zero defender, but I'll admit he's a hard worker and he's gotten better bit by bit all the time and every game. But I also want to fair and say that Toppin is so raw and so flawed, that even that progress isn't enough to make him truly useful) who doesn't fit into what Thibs does and needs.

Thibs did an incredible job last year. I agree the team should not fire him. But I'll also say that Leon Rose should not have hired him if both of them have clear full blown differences in how they believe this team should be built/rebuilt.

I am not going to blame Thibs for being exactly the kind of coach that he's established himself to be, the good and the bad. His job is to win games and he's trying to win games, albeit his methodology is flawed in many areas but they are consistent to what he's shown elsewhere. You can't blame the fox for trying to get into the henhouse all the time. That's their nature.

Leon Rose is in charge. So the responsibility is his and his alone. I do wish Thibs would be more flexible, but when you are the final decision maker, what comes with that power is all of the blame.

The real issue is this and it's been quite clear for a while now. Brock Aller needs to be running this team from the personnel side and be left alone and get to pick his own coach. Look at the Grizzlies. Yes they had some high lottery picks, but they have made the effort to push towards younger more analytical minds running their personnel. Guys on the same page. And the results are showing. Not just Morant but in the back of that roster, which has incredible depth.

To be fair, Leon Rose brings a certain "cache" that opens up doors for this team and access to players and coaches that the team might not be able to draw otherwise. I want to be fair about that. But you need bright young analytics types to build a modern team for the modern game. This transition isn't just happening in the NBA, it's happening in all major sports.

fishmike wrote:Thibs your turn to die

Our best player is Julius Randle... lets fire the coach. He's not putting guys in the right rolls, making the right subs or calling the right plays.

You can't fire him. That just screams dysfunction. Most of the fault is on the front office for failing to improve the team this off-season

I agree with certain points Triple makes

But I also think it was imperative that the team prioritize winning and forming a real identity (not just talk). Thibs is about defense, selflessness, passing. Players got better under Thibs (they also got burned out too, but they were better players).

It's a real puzzle why this year's team is playing so poorly -- especially at home.

and to be fair, if we were winning there would be a lot less whining about whether young guys are getting enough action. a lot of us would be saying it's part of the process, guys need to earn minutes, there day will come etc. Because we're losing so much, second guessing everything is in full force.

There are a lot of good coaches on that list -- bona fide chops.

I almost don’t even remember Horny being coach. He was so inconsequential. Did anything even happen that year?

I’m 50.1% behind Thibs! Which is to say - he wasn’t my choice, but we went with him. I think the FO and he need to get on the same page about what they are trying to do (besides win!) and how best they do that in the short, medium and long term.

If they can’t get on the same page, then someone has to go.

I do want to add- part of the reason they are losing some recent games is they are missing RJ and how was he hurt? That injury is kinda 100% on Thibs and his stupidity for putting his starters into a blow out when it’s garbage time.