Knicks · What’s the consensus on the Toppin/Quickley breakouts? (page 1)

We know they play well together and took advantage of an opportunity late in the year more than anyone could ever realistically expect. The question is how much of it is real, and how much is just a perfect storm of the circumstances of playing a lot against teams that weren’t playing as hard as they would earlier in the season? Is the Toppin shooting for real? Is the quickley playmaking for real? Does their confidence carry over to games that matter more? I don’t believe this is a Mardy Collins situation but we see this all the time and I want to know how confident everyone is in these guys being at the level they showed recently.

Fans that are not into Randle are clearly biased to obi’s “Breakout”.
Fans not into Burks clearly are seeking redemption for IQ fever!

Me? Im elated over their recent output but I don’t know what that means. Clearly toronto had nothing to play for and our yoot did not have a balanced roster. We dressed 8 guys.

So I don’t know what to do with it. If it increases their trade value thats good. We clearly are stocked to make some sort of deal.
Looking for inflection or hints in interviews is fun. Obi says “if we all back”. If I am him I want my agent to press for playing time or a trade. As much as I want this Amare version of Obi Im not convinced this is who he is. Thats not my job.
Does IQ solve our starting PG thing? Or does he push Drose off for trade?

Mardy Collins never looked anything like these guys.

IQ/Obi may not be stars but they are if nothing else rotation players and their upside for more remains.

Also you mentioned IQ/Obi but there is another pair that have shown good chemistry also, and that is IQ/Burks. They were great in the 2nd unit last year. Many times that IQ/Rose/Burks/Obi unit changed games. While neither IQ/Burks may not be "true PGs" when they play together you take the pressure off both a bit and they become scorers who can facilitate and that is very valuable.

You said "run it back" at one point. I think its likely Julius is here next year.

“There are so many different things we can do when we’re both on the court. But we’ve definitely talked about it and hopefully we’re both back here next year and we can see that. I feel like we can definitely do some damage in the league if we’re on the court together.”

https://nypost.com/2022/04/10/knicks-obi...

To me the way you do that and upgrade the SL and defense is start IQ/Burks and shorten the rotation.
PG IQ
SG RJ
SF Burks
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: Rose/Fournier/Obi

I think that is our best SL and 100x better on defense than starting Kemba/Fournier or Brunson/Fournier for that matter.
As for the bench Fournier takes Burks role last year. He's going to get his share of shots and he's one of the best shooters in the league. Obi is going to have to fight for minutes but he's a keeper for sure.

I do not think RJ/IQ/Obi/Mitch are good enough to make the playoffs (yet) so if you move Randle for an expiring and a pick next year it's going to set us back. That is also fine as I have no issue with committing to a rebuild. Either way it looks good.

fishmike wrote:Mardy Collins never looked anything like these guys.

IQ/Obi may not be stars but they are if nothing else rotation players and their upside for more remains.

Also you mentioned IQ/Obi but there is another pair that have shown good chemistry also, and that is IQ/Burks. They were great in the 2nd unit last year. Many times that IQ/Rose/Burks/Obi unit changed games. While neither IQ/Burks may not be "true PGs" when they play together you take the pressure off both a bit and they become scorers who can facilitate and that is very valuable.

You said "run it back" at one point. I think its likely Julius is here next year.

“There are so many different things we can do when we’re both on the court. But we’ve definitely talked about it and hopefully we’re both back here next year and we can see that. I feel like we can definitely do some damage in the league if we’re on the court together.”

https://nypost.com/2022/04/10/knicks-obi...

To me the way you do that and upgrade the SL and defense is start IQ/Burks and shorten the rotation.
PG IQ
SG RJ
SF Burks
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: Rose/Fournier/Obi

I think that is our best SL and 100x better on defense than starting Kemba/Fournier or Brunson/Fournier for that matter.
As for the bench Fournier takes Burks role last year. He's going to get his share of shots and he's one of the best shooters in the league. Obi is going to have to fight for minutes but he's a keeper for sure.

I do not think RJ/IQ/Obi/Mitch are good enough to make the playoffs (yet) so if you move Randle for an expiring and a pick next year it's going to set us back. That is also fine as I have no issue with committing to a rebuild. Either way it looks good.

Yes running it back plus a quality PG is still a good option. Have to consider Randle being all-in though. That’s the x-factor. Toppin is a fan favorite and the style of play improves when he’s in there. But he has to share the floor with Randle from time to time for it to work.

Love what IQ is doing recently. We still need a starting PG

Philc1 wrote:Love what IQ is doing recently. We still need a starting PG

Agreed. He’s such a good change of pace player. I could see him starting alongside another playmaker eventually but not as a true starting Pg yet.

Knixkik wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Love what IQ is doing recently. We still need a starting PG

Agreed. He’s such a good change of pace player. I could see him starting alongside another playmaker eventually but not as a true starting Pg yet.

well that's why he's looked so good with Burks in these starts. They are very interchangeable. They look for quick and aggressive scoring chances and they move the ball quickly. While they arent stoppers they are both + defenders and both have good size/length. Aside from defense they also both do things besides score.

Burks has real value. I wish we got a longer look at Reddish

Philc1 wrote:Love what IQ is doing recently. We still need a starting PG

we need a lot. PG is looking better and better

I’m not going to over exaggerate these wins. In fact I heard most of the nba top records occur during this time, which I didn’t know but heard them say this on the sports radio station. So clearly you can’t take a lot from this and say they should be starters. What’s clear is they should be in the rotation and IQ should start over Burks. My decision is not based on if they are ready it’s when they will be ready. And for me more playing time is the best development for IQ and Obi right now. Earlier maybe not, regarding Obi.

Obi seems to play better when he’s not looking over his shoulder. And I believe he said something similar during an interview. So clearly Obi is a late bloomer and this might explain why. Some players thrive in different environments. When u have to look over your shoulder, and worry about mistakes, it takes you out of your game. But when u are playing free and not worried about mistakes, or worried that thibs will yank you for every mishap, your play is better which is what we are seeing in Obi.

To me, I would bring them back as starters. Never underestimate the importance of chemistry. And right now Obi and IQ are one of the few pairs of players that enjoy each other’s company on and off the court. Plus other players like RJ and others, actually like these guys. These young players have a bond together. Since we are not championship ready, why not build around IQ, RJ and Obi? The reward out weighs the risk.

Same thing I said earlier in the season. The reward in starting IQ earlier out weighed the risk. And what we are seeing is the reward in giving IQ more minutes as a starter vs off the bench. I believe IQ can grow into the PG thibs wants or needs. Obi can grow into an impactful starting PF, as a ball mover who takes the top off the offense with his leak outs on fast breaks.

Start them both and trade Randle. With the way Obi has played, and how Randle did the fan gesture, I believe there’s no return from that. Fans will scream Obi every time Randle has his moments or missing shots and doesn’t give his all. And right now Randle value is low but his subtraction should be an addition to the team in the long run. Yes Randle will go to another team and dominate just like zack Randolph did in Memphis. But that’s why the FO and coaches make the big bucks. For tough decisions like this. But this time there’s backing from fans and their tape of what this team can become without Randle.

Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

Nalod wrote:Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

phuck no to Brunson. Lets pass on paying high for midgets. I agree with you on chemistry which is why you start IQ next year and pair him with Burks. Those two brings size/shooting/ball handling/can run plays... neither are great full time PGs, but together they look fantastic.
Move Fournier to the bench where Thibs can ride his hot nights and sit his cold ones.
Rose is IQ's back up. Then you have McBride and someone you draft or a vet that fits well.

Dumping Randle is an emotional move, not a tactical one. He's still much better than Obi, but its also obvious Obi needs time and minutes to grow. Something like Bledsoe and pick sets us WAAAAY back unless you get some really wild contributions from other guys.

Obi's shooting is real. He has great strength and the motion on his 3pter is fluid. Is he ever going to be a lethal shooter like a Steve Novak? Probably not. But if he develops an ability to control his dribble, watch out because if you fly out you could be letting a team mate get posterized

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

phuck no to Brunson. Lets pass on paying high for midgets. I agree with you on chemistry which is why you start IQ next year and pair him with Burks. Those two brings size/shooting/ball handling/can run plays... neither are great full time PGs, but together they look fantastic.
Move Fournier to the bench where Thibs can ride his hot nights and sit his cold ones.
Rose is IQ's back up. Then you have McBride and someone you draft or a vet that fits well.

Dumping Randle is an emotional move, not a tactical one. He's still much better than Obi, but its also obvious Obi needs time and minutes to grow. Something like Bledsoe and pick sets us WAAAAY back unless you get some really wild contributions from other guys.

agree with everything fish said. Please, hard pass on Brunson. Let's home grow IQ and our own talent for once. now, if we can get a SGA, you do that

I think u go with it
Start both with Barrett for sure

Caseloads wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Why can’t we play both?
randle seems leaner the last two years. Either he bulks back up and is the PF doing that bully ball or up the pace and pay SF.

Im hoping randle can fix himself and they can solve some chemistry issues. not sure that can be but I can’t rule it out. If “jWe Here” randle is still relevant, and we have an OBI that has range, is this common theory still true? RJ at the 2?

Start IQ? OR do a deal for Brunson.
I think Evan has played back to his contract and was durable. he has trade value. As does one of Grimes/Cam, and we have plethora of 2nd picks and the Mavs pick also.
There is a world of possibilities. One is Randle and OBI co-existing.

phuck no to Brunson. Lets pass on paying high for midgets. I agree with you on chemistry which is why you start IQ next year and pair him with Burks. Those two brings size/shooting/ball handling/can run plays... neither are great full time PGs, but together they look fantastic.
Move Fournier to the bench where Thibs can ride his hot nights and sit his cold ones.
Rose is IQ's back up. Then you have McBride and someone you draft or a vet that fits well.

Dumping Randle is an emotional move, not a tactical one. He's still much better than Obi, but its also obvious Obi needs time and minutes to grow. Something like Bledsoe and pick sets us WAAAAY back unless you get some really wild contributions from other guys.

agree with everything fish said. Please, hard pass on Brunson. Let's home grow IQ and our own talent for once. now, if we can get a SGA, you do that

right... SGA is a chance to consolidate assets and if OK offers him for some kind of Obi/IQ package well you gotta do that

franco12 wrote:Obi's shooting is real. He has great strength and the motion on his 3pter is fluid. Is he ever going to be a lethal shooter like a Steve Novak? Probably not. But if he develops an ability to control his dribble, watch out because if you fly out you could be letting a team mate get posterized

he played two years of college ball and most of that came in his 2nd season. He shot 43-103 (.417) from 3 at college. He hasnt shown anything like that in the NBA until post all star break where he's shooting .408 (18 games, 31-76 from 3)

Lets be honest... his shot isnt pretty. Seems like he just kinda flings it and we have seen some really bad Antoine Walker caliber misses. That being said his ability to get hot is undeniable. He showed it in college and with more minutes and comfort he's letting it fly in the 2nd half with great accuracy.

That could be the real x-factor here. What if Obi becomes a 40% shooter from downtown?

Dude... think about that. You end up with Randle playing a lot of center where he gets the post and Obi gets to release every time Jules gets a defensive board.

Thibs loves Obi. He loves IQ.

It comes down to the exit interviews. If Jules is positive about making sacrifices in his role (like playing more small ball center) then this could work. If Obi/Jules can play together you keep Mitch and you have 3 bigs who can really do great things and you can play any combo of 2 of them together.

I am in no way stuck on keeping Randle, I just hate selling low and I think he's better than he played this year. I also think the "bad teammate" is a narrative spun by fans tired of watching his BS (understandable). Obi has already said he's talking with Randle about how they can play together...

The best scenario for Knick fans is a rehabbed and happier Randle next year. If you get anything close to it and this kind of growth from RJ/Obi/IQ and guys like Sims/Reddish/McBride chomping to get in, Rose coming back, hopefully Mitch also, it could be a real bounce back year

Usage rate is an important stat. Nearly every player is talented enough to drop 40 points on any given night, the question is whether they get enough shots. If you put Kemba, Fournier, Barrett and Randle in the same rotation, 2 players are going to be unhappy (or worse, ineffective) with the number of shots they are getting. If you put IQ Fournier Barrett Randle and Toppin in the same lineup, there are not enough shots to go around.

Second, it takes a little while for the league to adjust to players when they start getting significant shots. Push Jeremy Lin left and he will drive all the way out of the league. Enough tape reveals flaws. Guys put up one or two games like this os cool. When they adapt and overcome the changes in defense is where they become real.

I’m optimistic on Quickley because this iteration is an adaptation for him. He is opening up other aspects of his game where I previously thought of him as a gunslinger. I think this is real.

Toppin is having a blast and showing some real offensive versatility in a manner that makes me hopeful that all he needs is a point guard. That said, we need to see how the league reacts to him and whether he adapts.

I’m excited for these two but the team needs to figure out how to divvy up the shots. Ball movement seems to stop in the Barrett/Randle/Fournier iterations. That has to change.

If Randle is here next season it's only because we couldn't find a trade for him that didn't require us sending a pick to get rid of him. Can't see any scenario where Randle and Toppin are paired together next season - especially with the fan/crowd perception change with Randle. He's gone and may even already know that.

IQ and Toppin will still be widely erratic at times and I see them as fringe starters/super subs due to their play style. They may be the best we have to offer but IQ is still ideally a combo guard off the bench and Toppin a tweener forward. Both would not start on playoff teams at the moment so we shouldn't get too ahead of ourselves. Let's hope they progress to be more but while I'm encouraged by the recent games, I'll be more optimistic with their potential when I see the game slow down for each of them. Most of what Toppin is doing is based on his hustle and speed against lesser quality players. If a quality team game planned to focus on him, he would need a lot more offensive ability to still produce more than a few hustle/transition points. And I've been all for dumping Randle to give Toppin time (for the past two seasons).

The question for me is how much we value IQ and Toppin's recent play if a high potential trade presents itself... if a player like Donovan Mitchell is available but it would require 2 #1 picks, IQ, Toppin and others (not RJ and they won't want Randle) - do you do it? I think as much as I personally support young talent the Knicks would almost certainly do it.

Ideal offseason for me would be to move Randle and #12 for Bledsoe, Winslow and #7. Then try to package #7 and Dallas future 1st to move up to #3 or 4 and land that PG we've been needing for some time. Eat Kemba's deal if we can't find a trade. In this scenario I would trade Rose and Burks to highest bidder (LA was interested last season at deadline) and hope they can help a playoff team. Move Fournier to 6th man midway through season to allow Grimes time to develop into a starter (best case scenario). Resign Mitch if it's not too crazy an overpay and we return with essentially the same squad plus another top talent to add to. Expect us to regress a bit but still fight for that playoff spot. We'd be pretty set for the future IMO.

jskinny35 wrote:If Randle is here next season it's only because we couldn't find a trade for him that didn't require us sending a pick to get rid of him. Can't see any scenario where Randle and Toppin are paired together next season - especially with the fan/crowd perception change with Randle. He's gone and may even already know that.

IQ and Toppin will still be widely erratic at times and I see them as fringe starters/super subs due to their play style. They may be the best we have to offer but IQ is still ideally a combo guard off the bench and Toppin a tweener forward. Both would not start on playoff teams at the moment so we shouldn't get too ahead of ourselves. Let's hope they progress to be more but while I'm encouraged by the recent games, I'll be more optimistic with their potential when I see the game slow down for each of them. Most of what Toppin is doing is based on his hustle and speed against lesser quality players. If a quality team game planned to focus on him, he would need a lot more offensive ability to still produce more than a few hustle/transition points. And I've been all for dumping Randle to give Toppin time (for the past two seasons).

The question for me is how much we value IQ and Toppin's recent play if a high potential trade presents itself... if a player like Donovan Mitchell is available but it would require 2 #1 picks, IQ, Toppin and others (not RJ and they won't want Randle) - do you do it? I think as much as I personally support young talent the Knicks would almost certainly do it.

Ideal offseason for me would be to move Randle and #12 for Bledsoe, Winslow and #7. Then try to package #7 and Dallas future 1st to move up to #3 or 4 and land that PG we've been needing for some time. Eat Kemba's deal if we can't find a trade. In this scenario I would trade Rose and Burks to highest bidder (LA was interested last season at deadline) and hope they can help a playoff team. Move Fournier to 6th man midway through season to allow Grimes time to develop into a starter (best case scenario). Resign Mitch if it's not too crazy an overpay and we return with essentially the same squad plus another top talent to add to. Expect us to regress a bit but still fight for that playoff spot. We'd be pretty set for the future IMO.

you think Leon and co are gonna role based on what the fans think?

When the Knicks are winning games and Randle is playing a positive role in it things will change really fast. That's all anyone cares about

fishmike wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:If Randle is here next season it's only because we couldn't find a trade for him that didn't require us sending a pick to get rid of him. Can't see any scenario where Randle and Toppin are paired together next season - especially with the fan/crowd perception change with Randle. He's gone and may even already know that.

IQ and Toppin will still be widely erratic at times and I see them as fringe starters/super subs due to their play style. They may be the best we have to offer but IQ is still ideally a combo guard off the bench and Toppin a tweener forward. Both would not start on playoff teams at the moment so we shouldn't get too ahead of ourselves. Let's hope they progress to be more but while I'm encouraged by the recent games, I'll be more optimistic with their potential when I see the game slow down for each of them. Most of what Toppin is doing is based on his hustle and speed against lesser quality players. If a quality team game planned to focus on him, he would need a lot more offensive ability to still produce more than a few hustle/transition points. And I've been all for dumping Randle to give Toppin time (for the past two seasons).

The question for me is how much we value IQ and Toppin's recent play if a high potential trade presents itself... if a player like Donovan Mitchell is available but it would require 2 #1 picks, IQ, Toppin and others (not RJ and they won't want Randle) - do you do it? I think as much as I personally support young talent the Knicks would almost certainly do it.

Ideal offseason for me would be to move Randle and #12 for Bledsoe, Winslow and #7. Then try to package #7 and Dallas future 1st to move up to #3 or 4 and land that PG we've been needing for some time. Eat Kemba's deal if we can't find a trade. In this scenario I would trade Rose and Burks to highest bidder (LA was interested last season at deadline) and hope they can help a playoff team. Move Fournier to 6th man midway through season to allow Grimes time to develop into a starter (best case scenario). Resign Mitch if it's not too crazy an overpay and we return with essentially the same squad plus another top talent to add to. Expect us to regress a bit but still fight for that playoff spot. We'd be pretty set for the future IMO.

you think Leon and co are gonna role based on what the fans think?

When the Knicks are winning games and Randle is playing a positive role in it things will change really fast. That's all anyone cares about

If knicks succeed with Randle he'll be back in good graces. Leon stated publically he wants to be here. There are ways to dilute indecision verbally and I did not see that with leon in his interview. He said Knicks want him and he wants to be here.
Not sure I see Randle at the 5 on a regular basis. To me he is trending more like a 3.
Lets get something straight, nobody is happy including Randle about this past season. I don't see how he comes back from this seasone either because I don't understand what happend. Perhaps we are all guessing.
If its unattainable a correction cannot be devised, conceived, or executed he and knicks will part company. does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

IF this version of Obi can hit outside shots in crunch time then he'll get it good with Randle. If Randle won't pass, or freeze out starters, he'll have issues again.

Although I don't feel at all that the FO or coaching staff have made all the best decisions, I trust them far more than the mob that is bing bong fans and their media overlords. I think it is more probable that IQ and Obi have been developed and brought along prudently and intelligently than that if they had played 30 plus minutes a game in December or even the previous season all would be well. But of course an unhappy mob wants blood.

That aside (and tanking pants wetters be damned), ya gotta be pleased with the Obi and IQ show. Add that to RJ, maybe Mitch, Grimes, Sims, Cam, Deuce plus what we get in the draft and there is something resembling hope.