Knicks · Randle for Gordan Heyward (page 2)
BigDaddyG wrote:smackeddog wrote:I do wonder if the whole point of that Pro-AM game was so Brunson could see what it was like playing with randle and Obi and let the Knicks front office know which one he prefers/ fits better with personality and talent wise, it's just such an odd 3 players to have play together otherwise, especially when Thibs will never play Randle and Obi together unless forced to.I don't think it went that deeply. It's a Pro-Am league. I think it was just teammates getting reps. Grimes and IQ were scheduled to play in other leagues, so that explains why they weren't there. Obi seems like a hooper and he's from NY, so it's no-brainer that he would play.
Please don't ruin my fantasy😂
Alpha1971 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Ugh. Let's see if Randle can get back his groove before we shoot ourselves in the foot for the next two seasons.What's Randles groove anyway, 30 percent from three, with a spin move into three defenders where he gets stripped ? Or on a overly difficult move he complains to the ref he doesn't get fouled ? Even prime Randle was vexing. Then what you want his wife to complain about bloggers or how the garden boos her husband ? Or want to see Randle heckled after a bad fee games ? It's time he goes,
Time out. Agree that last year and three years ago Randle was a minus on the court. However, let's not pretend that the year before last that he was anything short of amazing. He was doing everything, hitting threes, setting up teammates, and playing tough D.
smackeddog wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:smackeddog wrote:I do wonder if the whole point of that Pro-AM game was so Brunson could see what it was like playing with randle and Obi and let the Knicks front office know which one he prefers/ fits better with personality and talent wise, it's just such an odd 3 players to have play together otherwise, especially when Thibs will never play Randle and Obi together unless forced to.I don't think it went that deeply. It's a Pro-Am league. I think it was just teammates getting reps. Grimes and IQ were scheduled to play in other leagues, so that explains why they weren't there. Obi seems like a hooper and he's from NY, so it's no-brainer that he would play.
Please don't ruin my fantasy😂
Naw, were Knicks fans and misery loves company. If Martin can't fulfill his fantasy with Rebecca, then why should I allow you to fantasize about secret Pro-Am assassination plots. 😈
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You may be right. Heyward is the better player but he is also 32 and injury prone. Plus, he makes more than Randle. Thus, we are giving them a young player signed for 4 more years on a cheaper contract. I would at least ask for a second round pick but even if it were a straight up one for one trade, it is a good deal for us to get off Randle’s contract.
TheGame wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You may be right. Heyward is the better player but he is also 32 and injury prone. Plus, he makes more than Randle. Thus, we are giving them a young player signed for 4 more years on a cheaper contract. I would at least ask for a second round pick but even if it were a straight up one for one trade, it is a good deal for us to get off Randle’s contract.
This thread is getting funnier by the post.
Panos wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Ugh. Let's see if Randle can get back his groove before we shoot ourselves in the foot for the next two seasons.What's Randles groove anyway, 30 percent from three, with a spin move into three defenders where he gets stripped ? Or on a overly difficult move he complains to the ref he doesn't get fouled ? Even prime Randle was vexing. Then what you want his wife to complain about bloggers or how the garden boos her husband ? Or want to see Randle heckled after a bad fee games ? It's time he goes,
Time out. Agree that last year and three years ago Randle was a minus on the court. However, let's not pretend that the year before last that he was anything short of amazing. He was doing everything, hitting threes, setting up teammates, and playing tough D.
Exactly.
Times two.
blkexec wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:KnickDanger wrote:I get it. But besides just being a sunshine and lollipops before the season starts kind of guy looking for a big turnaround, I think there are factors that hopefully facilitate that. First, Julius is a tough dude. Any good team needs that. And he has shown he can produce good numbers. I have the idea that perhaps his troubles last year came from trying to be "The Man." Not from an ego standpoint so much as in the wake of the previous season, new contract, and all that. Perhaps with Brunson, the further ascension of RJ, and maybe some guidance from Thibs he will find a comfort zone where he can thrive. I hope so.So if we keep Randall and we win five or six extra games we draft 11 again instead of 7 or so. Plus we play Obi less and likely will have to lose him for less then his actual value. Time to trade Randle unless you feel he is going to be a perpetual all star level player for the duration of his deal
What do we gain from Randle being on the team? What do we gain from Randle regaining his allstar game? What do we gain? Nothing. Theres no scenario anybody can justify playing Randle over Obi at this point.But when you think about giving Obi Randles 30 plus mins, there’s nothing but gains.
1. He sucks we get a better pick
2. He balls out and increase his valueTrading Randle starts the vet trading momentum which will give this FO a chance to see the youths value instead of practice and garbage time. Now we can go into the off season either trading the farm of yoots or holding onto the ones that pop. And now a similar trade that Ainge turned down works because the youth just increased their value.
I rather take a chance at increasing the youths value than Randles value. Teams know Randle and only going to low ball us because we are a desperate franchise starving for an nba star. Let him go and start over again.
Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe we WIN GAMES and GET INTO the PLAYOFFS like we did when Randle was an All Star?!! Is not that the point? And please don't say it is to eventually win a chip. Few teams ever do that. We have not done that since? We do not have the players to do so. Starting Obi or Grimes will not get any closer to that than if we had started Frank, Knox or Baker. We need to continue to keep GOOD players. Then get them to improve. Despite obvious flaws, Randle is a very good player. Recent All Star. What we do not need to do is overhype young players that need more time to prove themselves. Tired of that. I can put a list together if you forgot. Let JB do what he was brought in to do. Give Randle, RJ and EF a chance to show if they can play well with a true NBA PG. If they can't, make moves at the mid point.
As for dumping Randle for youth movement...
Do you really think Rose goes to "Let's just give the young kids a shot"? Especially after missing out on DM?
Do you really think Rose was brought over to give a bunch of nobody's staring roles and tank?
Do you think that is why Randle was extended last year?
Is that why they just spent so much money on a PG?(To commit to playing with unproven players?)
How would that make Rose look? To change plans just like that?
Still do not get the urgency by so many to have Obi start? Grimes, IQ showed that if you are good enough, you will start to scratch a future for yourself as a starter. So if Obi is so good, he will show it in games and practice. What's the problem?
Agree that Randle should play less minutes. Agree that Obi has earned some more minutes. Agree that if Randle is no longer able to play well here, he should be shopped. But if you really think our next move will be to dump Randle and EF so that a second year kid and a third year dunker can take over as starters, you are not being realistic or understand where the Knicks are right now.
NO ONE in the FO is going to agree to dump Randle, Fournier without having a better back up plan.
And that is not Obi or some 32 year old with a ceramic knee.
HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:KnickDanger wrote:I get it. But besides just being a sunshine and lollipops before the season starts kind of guy looking for a big turnaround, I think there are factors that hopefully facilitate that. First, Julius is a tough dude. Any good team needs that. And he has shown he can produce good numbers. I have the idea that perhaps his troubles last year came from trying to be "The Man." Not from an ego standpoint so much as in the wake of the previous season, new contract, and all that. Perhaps with Brunson, the further ascension of RJ, and maybe some guidance from Thibs he will find a comfort zone where he can thrive. I hope so.So if we keep Randall and we win five or six extra games we draft 11 again instead of 7 or so. Plus we play Obi less and likely will have to lose him for less then his actual value. Time to trade Randle unless you feel he is going to be a perpetual all star level player for the duration of his deal
What do we gain from Randle being on the team? What do we gain from Randle regaining his allstar game? What do we gain? Nothing. Theres no scenario anybody can justify playing Randle over Obi at this point.But when you think about giving Obi Randles 30 plus mins, there’s nothing but gains.
1. He sucks we get a better pick
2. He balls out and increase his valueTrading Randle starts the vet trading momentum which will give this FO a chance to see the youths value instead of practice and garbage time. Now we can go into the off season either trading the farm of yoots or holding onto the ones that pop. And now a similar trade that Ainge turned down works because the youth just increased their value.
I rather take a chance at increasing the youths value than Randles value. Teams know Randle and only going to low ball us because we are a desperate franchise starving for an nba star. Let him go and start over again.
Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe we WIN GAMES and GET INTO the PLAYOFFS like we did when Randle was an All Star?!! Is not that the point? And please don't say it is to eventually win a chip. Few teams ever do that. We have not done that since? We do not have the players to do so. Starting Obi or Grimes will not get any closer to that than if we had started Frank, Knox or Baker. We need to continue to keep GOOD players. Then get them to improve. Despite obvious flaws, Randle is a very good player. Recent All Star. What we do not need to do is overhype young players that need more time to prove themselves. Tired of that. I can put a list together if you forgot. Let JB do what he was brought in to do. Give Randle, RJ and EF a chance to show if they can play well with a true NBA PG. If they can't, make moves at the mid point.
As for dumping Randle for youth movement...
Do you really think Rose goes to "Let's just give the young kids a shot"? Especially after missing out on DM?
Do you really think Rose was brought over to give a bunch of nobody's staring roles and tank?
Do you think that is why Randle was extended last year?
Is that why they just spent so much money on a PG?(To commit to playing with unproven players?)
How would that make Rose look? To change plans just like that?Still do not get the urgency by so many to have Obi start? Grimes, IQ showed that if you are good enough, you will start to scratch a future for yourself as a starter. So if Obi is so good, he will show it in games and practice. What's the problem?
Agree that Randle should play less minutes. Agree that Obi has earned some more minutes. Agree that if Randle is no longer able to play well here, he should be shopped. But if you really think our next move will be to dump Randle and EF so that a second year kid and a third year dunker can take over as starters, you are not being realistic or understand where the Knicks are right now.
NO ONE in the FO is going to agree to dump Randle, Fournier without having a better back up plan.
And that is not Obi or some 32 year old with a ceramic knee.
Yup!
Bucks have most of their rotation going on 10+ years in the league, many with significant injury histories.
Miami, benefits from the intangibles of coaching and culture but has a thin bench.
Ditto for Boston.
Toronto had the worst bench in the league last season and still lacks a legitimate center.
Cleveland is also good but needs Rubio back at full strength to hit their potential.
With Brunson on board and if Randle and RJ can recapture their 2021 magic, the Knicks should be right there in the East.
martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You think they would take one of those protected first rounders we just landed at the draft? Hate to give up one of our 1st rounders despite my desire to relocate Randle asap.
jskinny35 wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You think they would take one of those protected first rounders we just landed at the draft? Hate to give up one of our 1st rounders despite my desire to relocate Randle asap.
What's the downside risk of waiting until the trade deadline to do a deal like this?
gradyandrew wrote:jskinny35 wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You think they would take one of those protected first rounders we just landed at the draft? Hate to give up one of our 1st rounders despite my desire to relocate Randle asap.
What's the downside risk of waiting until the trade deadline to do a deal like this?
The downside is we are 10 games below .500 by next February
KnickDanger wrote:So haters need a whipping boy….Payton left and then it was Randle…if Randle plays well who is next in line? Fournier? Or if Brunson starts slow. Or anyone….
Call it whatever you want. Hate? Ok. Last I checked Elf wasn’t even on an nba roster after barely being a 12th man in Phoenix last season
The criticisms of Randle are absolutely fair. He’s a ball stopper with a very bad contract who has yet to adjust his game to be more of an off ball player. I’d love to eat crow about Randle next season I hope he proves me wrong because it means we are a 4-5 seed by January but I don’t see it happening
gradyandrew wrote:Panos wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Ugh. Let's see if Randle can get back his groove before we shoot ourselves in the foot for the next two seasons.What's Randles groove anyway, 30 percent from three, with a spin move into three defenders where he gets stripped ? Or on a overly difficult move he complains to the ref he doesn't get fouled ? Even prime Randle was vexing. Then what you want his wife to complain about bloggers or how the garden boos her husband ? Or want to see Randle heckled after a bad fee games ? It's time he goes,
Time out. Agree that last year and three years ago Randle was a minus on the court. However, let's not pretend that the year before last that he was anything short of amazing. He was doing everything, hitting threes, setting up teammates, and playing tough D.
Exactly.
Times two.
Randle has made the playoffs once ever
Philc1 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Panos wrote:Alpha1971 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:Ugh. Let's see if Randle can get back his groove before we shoot ourselves in the foot for the next two seasons.What's Randles groove anyway, 30 percent from three, with a spin move into three defenders where he gets stripped ? Or on a overly difficult move he complains to the ref he doesn't get fouled ? Even prime Randle was vexing. Then what you want his wife to complain about bloggers or how the garden boos her husband ? Or want to see Randle heckled after a bad fee games ? It's time he goes,
Time out. Agree that last year and three years ago Randle was a minus on the court. However, let's not pretend that the year before last that he was anything short of amazing. He was doing everything, hitting threes, setting up teammates, and playing tough D.
Exactly.
Times two.
Randle has made the playoffs once ever
Yes, the very same year he was amazing the year before last. Then he flamed out in the playoffs. So ok, he has room to grow. But Let's not say that he has never "grooved," because he has. In that year, I would say his regular season performance, all told, was better than any single year that Melo played for the Knicks, and you would have to go back to Ewing to have a comparable impact on both sides of the ball. (AND BTW, Ewing was a ball stopper)
gradyandrew wrote:jskinny35 wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You think they would take one of those protected first rounders we just landed at the draft? Hate to give up one of our 1st rounders despite my desire to relocate Randle asap.
What's the downside risk of waiting until the trade deadline to do a deal like this?
The downside could be several things...
Worst Case
Randle implodes during the season and he becomes completely untradeable (last season's behaviors suggest this is possible). We are now stuck with 4 years of a player and end up having to buy him out. We have also wasted another season despite knowing the unlikely probability that Randle would "turn it around" after the previous 2 out of 3 seasons of poor play.
Likely Case
Randle doesn't implode but plays poorly - this negatively impacts team performance and his trade value. In the meantime - we still only have 12 minutes for Obi and our young players that like to push the pace are frustrated. Tension and playing time come to a head with young players - some are moved unnecessarily.
Possible Case
Randle plays decently but with continued ball dominant/ISO style of play and slow pacing - as a result we underachieve and since we can't trade Randle we end up trading young players to compensate for Thibs "win now" approach.
Best Case
Randle matures overnight (despite past), commits to D'Antoni's "7 Seconds or Less" offensive style, and improves both shot selection, efficiency and defensive consistency. As a result we overachieve and hope the maturity and consistency remain for the next 3 seasons.
I think in terms of probability and just don't see many likely scenarios where Randle being here the next 4 seasons will serve the best interest of the team. He's not new to the NBA and it's very hard to change patterns/habits you've worked on your entire life. This is not asking him to develop and outside shot as he gets older. Asking him to defer, change his shot selection, not pout when things don't go his way, not hold the ball, etc... it's a lot to ask of any player IMO.
So I think realizing that we have other options and making a lateral move is the way to go asap.
Maybe a different question would be - what's really the risk if we moved Randle immediately?
Randle hasn't show leadership skills that are invaluable - we have RJ and Brunson who we want to handle the ball more anyway
We play at the slowest pace despite having some decent athletically talented young players
Adding Brunson and allowing RJ more touches can minimize (or possibly) replace the lost points and increase ball movement
We can finally see if Obi is a role player or more. We could offer Cam spot minutes at the 4 as well. Hart/Sims could offer minutes
If I'm wrong and we completely regress we will have played/developed the young players and obtain a much better draft pick in a good one
His championship experience on a squad that excels at keeping the ball moving would
help the Knicks move closer to contender status. More than Hayward would IMO.
GustavBahler wrote:Would rather gamble on Draymond Green, if he's healthy, and GS doesnt want to pay him.
His championship experience on a squad that excels at keeping the ball moving would
help the Knicks move closer to contender status. More than Hayward would IMO.
That's an interesting idea as we would improve defensively and play with more pace.