Knicks · Jae Crowder Wants Out. Is He The Ticket To A Julius Randle Trade? (page 1)

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3466...

The Suns' need a shot in the arm. Their window is closing with CP3 a year older, the rest of the West contenders all healthy (LAC, DEN, LAL) and a few, new upstarts entering the mix (MIN, NOP, SAC). Julius Randle might make sense for them as someone that can consistently create a shot for himself from the mid-range (which fits their culture) and others (albeit infrequently). It might not be the smoothest fit because of his tendency to hold the ball but the Suns clearly need a 2nd scorer and Julius is very much that.

From our perspective, dumping Julius would allow us to see what our youth can do with increased usage ratings. I'd hate to give Obi and company extensions without having a better sense of who they are as players. Plus, we might be able to snag a first round pick from the exchange since the Suns don't evidently value them (based on James Jones' recent comments on the 2020 draft).

Does Julius Randle for Jae Crowder, Landry Shamet and a first round pick make sense for both teams?

To be honest, I like the fact we dump Randle but I'm concerned we'd have too many guaranteed players on the roster, when the focus should be on creating financial flexibility, roster flexibility and draft asset accumulation. I'd try to turn this into a 3-team trade and re-route those PHO players AND Evan Fournier to the Lakers for Russell Westbrook, first round pick swaps from 2027-2029 and whatever the Lakers have in the way of second round draft picks.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tra...

That might not seem like much from the Knicks' perspective —especially since I'd waive Westbrook— but the Lakers are a mess of an organization and controlling their draft picks has emmense value because of the likelihood of them bottoming out once LeBron retires. I suspect they'll return to the range of drafting no.2 overall, like they did from 2015-2017 after Kobe Bryant retired. Just think of our optionally if my prediction is right! If not, at least we don't have to concern ourselves with Randle and Fournier's contract anymore, which is still a win.

Thoughts?

...and in doing this, we create a pathway toward Cam Reddish minutes. As much as I'm a skeptic, I'd want to see what he's actually capable of before we try re-routing elsewhere. He has the pedigree and skill-set to still be a breakout candidate and I'd hate for that to be somewhere else. I could envision him as a backup forward for both Barrett and Obi. I'm not sure how many touches he could get with a bench unit featuring Derrick Rose and Immanuel Quickley but at least he'd have the opportunity to determine that through his play/minutes.

I'm thinking Thibs new rotation would be...
STARTERS
Jalen Brunson...PG
Quentin Grimes...G/F
RJ Barrett...F
Obi Toppin...PF
Mitchell Robinson...C
ROTATION
Derrick Rose...G
Immanuel Quickley...G
Cam Reddish...F
Isaiah Hartenstein...C

I don’t believe the Knicks want to dump Randle. They would move him to clear space for a star but I think he’s here for the year. I can see them moving him next summer to create space for a Wiggins contract or if another Mitchell type deal comes up, but not just to move him.

Knixkik wrote:I don’t believe the Knicks want to dump Randle. They would move him to clear space for a star but I think he’s here for the year. I can see them moving him next summer to create space for a Wiggins contract or if another Mitchell type deal comes up, but not just to move him.

You're probably right but what possible incentive is there to keep Randle, at his pricetag, especially when his backup seems more than ready to offer similar production (at least from what Randle did last season). And let's say Randle beats the odds and does a repeat of the 2020-2021 season, can we even make the playoffs in an Eastern Conference that is ridiculously deep now? Getting draft capital, roster/salary flexibility and developing our youth seems to be the only way to win this season.

Trade Randle!

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I don’t believe the Knicks want to dump Randle. They would move him to clear space for a star but I think he’s here for the year. I can see them moving him next summer to create space for a Wiggins contract or if another Mitchell type deal comes up, but not just to move him.

You're probably right but what possible incentive is there to keep Randle, at his pricetag, especially when his backup seems more than ready to offer similar production (at least from what Randle did last season). And let's say Randle beats the odds and does a repeat of the 2020-2021 season, can we even make the playoffs in an Eastern Conference that is ridiculously deep now? Getting draft capital, roster/salary flexibility and developing our youth seems to be the only way to win this season.

Obi's 3 pt shooting is at Randle's level, but his rebounding and defense aren't.

I don't think the Suns would want Randle. My guess is this is a cost saving move. They just gave a max to their center when they did not want to. They have to pay Cam next. SO they need to cut money from somewhere and Jae is where they decided to cut money from. By the way it was genius what the Suns did to save money on their center. They knew they would match a max offer but they did not want to pay the max they could offer. So to save money they told him to get a max from another team since it would be less money than the max the team that drafted him could offer. So while still giving him a max they saved a good amount of money.

not trading Randle

Leon loves Randle and isn't trading him unless it's for someone like Giannis.

Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

Yuck

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

I love Jae Crowder. You do need players like him. But for us, I think he is too old for where we are. We're not dumping Randle.

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

Number of shots and minutes may be subject to diminishing returns, in terms of efficiency too.

NardDogNation wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3466...

The Suns' need a shot in the arm. Their window is closing with CP3 a year older, the rest of the West contenders all healthy (LAC, DEN, LAL) and a few, new upstarts entering the mix (MIN, NOP, SAC). Julius Randle might make sense for them as someone that can consistently create a shot for himself from the mid-range (which fits their culture) and others (albeit infrequently). It might not be the smoothest fit because of his tendency to hold the ball but the Suns clearly need a 2nd scorer and Julius is very much that.

From our perspective, dumping Julius would allow us to see what our youth can do with increased usage ratings. I'd hate to give Obi and company extensions without having a better sense of who they are as players. Plus, we might be able to snag a first round pick from the exchange since the Suns don't evidently value them (based on James Jones' recent comments on the 2020 draft).

Does Julius Randle for Jae Crowder, Landry Shamet and a first round pick make sense for both teams?

To be honest, I like the fact we dump Randle but I'm concerned we'd have too many guaranteed players on the roster, when the focus should be on creating financial flexibility, roster flexibility and draft asset accumulation. I'd try to turn this into a 3-team trade and re-route those PHO players AND Evan Fournier to the Lakers for Russell Westbrook, first round pick swaps from 2027-2029 and whatever the Lakers have in the way of second round draft picks.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tra...

That might not seem like much from the Knicks' perspective —especially since I'd waive Westbrook— but the Lakers are a mess of an organization and controlling their draft picks has emmense value because of the likelihood of them bottoming out once LeBron retires. I suspect they'll return to the range of drafting no.2 overall, like they did from 2015-2017 after Kobe Bryant retired. Just think of our optionally if my prediction is right! If not, at least we don't have to concern ourselves with Randle and Fournier's contract anymore, which is still a win.

Thoughts?

Unless Suns are irrationally gaga over Randle the way Minny was for D'Angelo Russell, I just don't see how PHO would include a 1st round pick. They would really have to believe that Randle was a perfect fit and in the range of getting them to the championship even without the pick IMHO. I just don't see it.

As an aside, Randle's trade kicker would kick in - 15% - and his incentives would also come into play, so his salary would be $23.7 + $2.3 (incentives), + $3M (15%) = $29M for that first year.

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

not an unprotected knish. gotta be from yonah schimmel on the LES

Marv wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

not an unprotected knish. gotta be from yonah schimmel on the LES

OK. I guess we can hold out.

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

Yawn!! We can come up with a lot more lists of "conceivables"! My neighbors son thinks it's conceivable that he will become a millionaire despite living in the basement at the age of 30 and without ever going to college.

100 players? Please post statistical evidence of 30 that have actually done so? Not just the ole BS "I think so" rant. And I'm sure you can come up with 20 that are nearly averaging that for their careers? Btw, Randle has done so with others having the main role. Ie. Davis. As for the ones you think can do it, why haven't they? They don't get the minutes? Shots? Is there a special process they keep missing out on? Is there an application process for getting minutes? (I always thought in the real world you had to earn them through years of production in games and practices) Nah, Players just have to show their coaches they can do it consistently. Show them they have that bull/alpha mentality and are unafraid to take the big shot. They have to prove they can produce despite teams defensive focussing on them. Not just because it's "conceivable" they can do so. BUT OK, MOST importantly, please post which of the players that have actually averaged 20/10 want anything to do with the Knicks?!!

Fyi, You can be okay with trading Randle for a bag of potatoes but that just shows the level of perspective. One that, luckily for us, is not the same at the management level. This is the kind of impatient thinking that has kept the Knicks from developing in the past. Randle is a young solide player who can improve. He will have a better year as long as he takes less 3pt shots, gives up ball handling, plays downhill and establishes a rapport with a true PG. If he doesn't, the smart move is not the bag of potatoes but to trade him to a team needing a proven 20/10 in the playoffs.

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

Yawn!! We can come up with a lot more lists of "conceivables"! My neighbors son thinks it's conceivable that he will become a millionaire despite living in the basement at the age of 30 and without ever going to college.

100 players? Please post statistical evidence of those that have done so? Not just the ole BS "I think so" rant. And I'm sure you can come up with 50 that are nearly averaging that for their careers? Some leave out that he did so with others having the main role. Ie. Davis. As for the ones you think can do it, why haven't they? They don't get the minutes? Shots? Is there a special process they keep missing out on? Is there an application process? (I always thought in the real world you had to earn them through years of production in games and practices) You also have to have that bull/alpha mentality. You also have to be able to do so despite teams defensive focussing on you. That's where the consistency has some weight. BUT MOST importantly, please post which of the 100 players that have averaged 20/10 want anything to do with the Knicks?!!

Fyi, You can be okay with trading Randle for a bag of potatoes but that just shows the level of perspective. One that, luckily for us, is not the same at the management level. This is the kind of impatient thinking that has kept the Knicks from developing in the past. Randle is a young solide player who can improve. He will have a better year as long as he takes less 3pt shots, gives up ball handling, plays downhill and establishes a rapport with a true PG. If he doesn't, the smart move is not the bag of potatoes but to trade him to a team needing a proven 20/10 in the playoffs.

I can think of one statistic off the bat. One of the most inefficient scorers in the league. No getting around it. He's not good enough to be a 20 point a scorer on a functional team. I've seen him actively destroy the offense with his weak long twos and contested midrange jumpers. Spinning doesn't equal winning. I won't call him trash. But he's a sixth man on a good team. He will have a better year as long as he takes less 3pt shots, gives up ball handling, plays downhill and establishes a rapport with a true PG? So basically, you're saying he will be a better player if he changes the way he's played for his entire career? Don't see it. I hope he proves me wrong, but I don't want to waste the salary cap space to watch him try and do it.

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Martin... for the sake of monotony, can we lock all future "Trade Randle" threads?

From the recent interview, it is obvious that Rose wants to stick with what we have.
And why would Rose want to do a lateral move or in this case downgrade just for picks?
I did not see a mention that the Suns would be willing to include any picks?
If Crowder wants to go to "where he is needed", why would he come to the Knicks to back up Obi?

I second that. This "trade Randle at all costs" banter is getting tiresome, let alone that I am yet to see anyone here give a compelling reason to dump a solid, if unspectacular, 20-10 player for a bag of unpeeled potatoes.

There are conceivably 100 players in this league who could score 20 points a game if given the same amount of shots and minutes as Julius. Julius is one of the most inefficient of all of them. Sack of potatoes? I'd trade Randle for a knish.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/lea...

Yawn!! We can come up with a lot more lists of "conceivables"! My neighbors son thinks it's conceivable that he will become a millionaire despite living in the basement at the age of 30 and without ever going to college.

100 players? Please post statistical evidence of those that have done so? Not just the ole BS "I think so" rant. And I'm sure you can come up with 50 that are nearly averaging that for their careers? Some leave out that he did so with others having the main role. Ie. Davis. As for the ones you think can do it, why haven't they? They don't get the minutes? Shots? Is there a special process they keep missing out on? Is there an application process? (I always thought in the real world you had to earn them through years of production in games and practices) You also have to have that bull/alpha mentality. You also have to be able to do so despite teams defensive focussing on you. That's where the consistency has some weight. BUT MOST importantly, please post which of the 100 players that have averaged 20/10 want anything to do with the Knicks?!!

Fyi, You can be okay with trading Randle for a bag of potatoes but that just shows the level of perspective. One that, luckily for us, is not the same at the management level. This is the kind of impatient thinking that has kept the Knicks from developing in the past. Randle is a young solide player who can improve. He will have a better year as long as he takes less 3pt shots, gives up ball handling, plays downhill and establishes a rapport with a true PG. If he doesn't, the smart move is not the bag of potatoes but to trade him to a team needing a proven 20/10 in the playoffs.

I can think of one statistic off the bat. One of the most inefficient scorers in the league. No getting around it. He's not good enough to be a 20 point a scorer on a functional team. I've seen him actively destroy the offense with his weak long twos and contested midrange jumpers. Spinning doesn't equal winning. I won't call him trash. But he's a sixth man on a good team. He will have a better year as long as he takes less 3pt shots, gives up ball handling, plays downhill and establishes a rapport with a true PG? So basically, you're saying he will be a better player if he changes the way he's played for his entire career? Don't see it. I hope he proves me wrong, but I don't want to waste the salary cap space to watch him try and do it.

Think you keep.missing my point. I am not saying that Randle is the best player in the world. Not even saying I like how he plays. Just saying that if we are going to give up on guys with potential, fairly young and have a record of production but have weaknesses, we would have to trade ALL of the players on the roster. We would also not accept over 80% of the players in the league. Most who have no where near Randle level of production.

And If you think about it, what's harder to change/add to a player? Getting him to take better shots or to give him the kind of ability/game that enables him to be an NBA All Star? No matter what anyone says about Randle, he was an All Star, parrennial 20/10 guy. That is not easy to do. So why should we give up on him?? You call that player development. Imo, that's just some fan knee jerk.