Knicks · [Game Thread] Knicks @ Cavs 6PM 10/30/22 (page 4)

jskinny35 wrote:I also think this lineup just doesn't seem balanced. I know it's still early in the season but I think the problems that we hoped Brunson would fix still remain because they were problems that existed before and may be unfixable. I have been tough on Randle but so far this season I do see him trying harder to remain focused, give a better defensive effort and not escalate when things go south. That said the problems remain with him and RJ coexisting with limited outside shooting around them. RJ has struggled much of this season as Brunson adjusts to the offense. I've said for a few years now that RJ and Randle coexisting offensively seems to stunt each other's growth and suspect it will continue (even when RJ comes around and starts to play better).

So what can we do? Grimes will eventually return and is certainly worth looking at for replacing Fournier. I wonder if until then - it's worth it to try Toppin at the 3 position to see if he can be more effective since Fournier doesn't seem to be a long-term consideration and is so poor defensively that I'm wondering if Toppin would really be worse.

Potential Benefits are...
RJ could return to the SG position (and hopefully with shoot well) so we get a little better defensively in backcourt. This may help Brunson and RJ play to their strengths better.

Toppin's poor rebounding isn't as negatively impacting in the SF slot and he leaks out much of the time anyway.

Toppin doesn't need the ball (won't take away from Brunson, RJ, Randle iso), plays at a faster pace and (if focused) has the athleticism to guard SFs.

RJ at 6'6" and limited athletically compared to an athletic/fast Obi at 6'8" may force opposing SF's to have to work harder on the defense end.

We're getting lousy production from the combo of Fournier and RJ at the SG and SF positions

We can finally put to rest if Toppin deserves a greater role on this team and since it's always been Obi vs Randle - maybe this debate finally ends

Definitely understand the concerns about the defensive pairing of Obi/Randle but maybe the benefits outweigh the negative/concerns and we at least play faster with more ball movement... until Grimes returns at least? Brunson is doing his job and while I'm sure RJ will pick it up soon - we're still a middle of the pack team (at best) with the current team dynamic we have going on... so why not change it up?

Thoughts?

Brunson has already fixed a lot of the issues with ball movement on offense. If we didn’t have Brunson or some other viable pg we are 2-4 or 1-5 right now

I’m not going to overreact to this one

They won because of love and DM hitting threes. My big complaint would be letting love get the ball. Why sag off tHat guy?

Obi cam and Fournier looked liked keystone cops at critical points. We can clean all of this up. Cam needs to get his head right on offense and obi needs to lock in more on D. Very fixable I think

Chandler wrote:I’m not going to overreact to this one

They won because of love and DM hitting threes. My big complaint would be letting love get the ball. Why sag off tHat guy?

Obi cam and Fournier looked liked keystone cops at critical points. We can clean all of this up. Cam needs to get his head right on offense and obi needs to lock in more on D. Very fixable I think

End of 3rd and beginning of 4th... that was Obi with his worst stretch of the season - maybe even over his short career. And this is what is holding him back from getting more minutes.

I have wanted to see more from Hart but like some of what he has shown. During preseason it seemed like the O was running through Hart at times and the Knicks have gone completely away from that, for the better for now.

I like this:

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/...

Hartenstein, on the other hand, injects a liveliness that New York otherwise lacks. Defenses have to pay attention to him, and it’s no small feat that the Knicks were even against Milwaukee and Cleveland in the 55 combined minutes Hartenstein was on the court vs both opponents. That alone is worth top honors here even if he did struggle on the defensive glass and with protecting the rim at times.

The Knicks played shitty. They also missed half their FT's.

Make most of those FT's and make 1 or 2 more 3's (or don't let Cavs hit ALL of theirs) and it's a close'sh game.

Fixable.

Mike Breen was right. It was torture to watch Spida play like that. Cannot help but wonder, what if? But truthfully, I still wouldn't have made the trade and given up all those picks. I'm 110% against trading unprotected picks 3-5 years from now UNLESS it's for a true franchise level player like Giannis, Luka, Jokic or Embiid. Spida is a good player, an All-Star but he wouldn't have moved the needle much after we depleted the roster. At best, we'd be looking at the Melo Knicks 2.0 and that wasn't a successful era imho except for 2013.

But this game was extremely frustrating to watch. The defense in the first and fourth quarters was embarrassing. I'm annoyed Thibs did not make much adjustments. It's fine if Spida gets going. There is not much you can do when a player of his skillset gets hot like that. But there is simply no excuse for allowing a 100 year old Kevin Love to play like that! Obi's defensive effort and IQ was terrible. His TOs and soft defense were the main culprits in the Cavs comeback. I like Obi a lot but there is more to the game then dunks and highlights. RJ was also awful defensively in the fourth!

The rest of the team doesn't get off the hook either. Overall the defensive effort was not acceptable. These guys need to communicate and switch and not give them so much air space!

Philc1 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I also think this lineup just doesn't seem balanced. I know it's still early in the season but I think the problems that we hoped Brunson would fix still remain because they were problems that existed before and may be unfixable. I have been tough on Randle but so far this season I do see him trying harder to remain focused, give a better defensive effort and not escalate when things go south. That said the problems remain with him and RJ coexisting with limited outside shooting around them. RJ has struggled much of this season as Brunson adjusts to the offense. I've said for a few years now that RJ and Randle coexisting offensively seems to stunt each other's growth and suspect it will continue (even when RJ comes around and starts to play better).

So what can we do? Grimes will eventually return and is certainly worth looking at for replacing Fournier. I wonder if until then - it's worth it to try Toppin at the 3 position to see if he can be more effective since Fournier doesn't seem to be a long-term consideration and is so poor defensively that I'm wondering if Toppin would really be worse.

Potential Benefits are...
RJ could return to the SG position (and hopefully with shoot well) so we get a little better defensively in backcourt. This may help Brunson and RJ play to their strengths better.

Toppin's poor rebounding isn't as negatively impacting in the SF slot and he leaks out much of the time anyway.

Toppin doesn't need the ball (won't take away from Brunson, RJ, Randle iso), plays at a faster pace and (if focused) has the athleticism to guard SFs.

RJ at 6'6" and limited athletically compared to an athletic/fast Obi at 6'8" may force opposing SF's to have to work harder on the defense end.

We're getting lousy production from the combo of Fournier and RJ at the SG and SF positions

We can finally put to rest if Toppin deserves a greater role on this team and since it's always been Obi vs Randle - maybe this debate finally ends

Definitely understand the concerns about the defensive pairing of Obi/Randle but maybe the benefits outweigh the negative/concerns and we at least play faster with more ball movement... until Grimes returns at least? Brunson is doing his job and while I'm sure RJ will pick it up soon - we're still a middle of the pack team (at best) with the current team dynamic we have going on... so why not change it up?

Thoughts?

Brunson has already fixed a lot of the issues with ball movement on offense. If we didn’t have Brunson or some other viable pg we are 2-4 or 1-5 right now

Brunson has helped with ball movement and more importantly, he gives us an efficient, high IQ player that we can rely on at the end of games that will get us a high quality shot. We saw that against the Hornets. Last year, that would have been an L and the last couple of shots from us to close the game would have been low percentage shots with a turnover or two in the mix.

What Brunson hasn't changed is that our 2 highest usage players and shot takers are still inefficient. It's still early in the season, but I agree with Jskinnnny...I don't think RJ and Randle are a good mix and at some point down the road, one of them may need to moved. I think some in the front office are aware, which is why RJ almost got shipped out this summer.

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:I’m not going to overreact to this one

They won because of love and DM hitting threes. My big complaint would be letting love get the ball. Why sag off tHat guy?

Obi cam and Fournier looked liked keystone cops at critical points. We can clean all of this up. Cam needs to get his head right on offense and obi needs to lock in more on D. Very fixable I think

End of 3rd and beginning of 4th... that was Obi with his worst stretch of the season - maybe even over his short career. And this is what is holding him back from getting more minutes.

agree that was brutal -- plus letting DM block your layup??? Obi and Cam need to cherish their minutes or they'll get less. I felt both had selfish, too lackadaisical stretches. I did like seeing Cam's D, but his one-on-one stuff is brutal.

So most of our season predictions were hovering around .500. And after 6 games we are…at .500. This would constitute progress. But knuckleheads gonna knuckle.

Meanwhile the Warriors are 3 - 4. Trade Klay, fire Kerr!

Chandler wrote:I’m not going to overreact to this one

They won because of love and DM hitting threes. My big complaint would be letting love get the ball. Why sag off tHat guy?

Obi cam and Fournier looked liked keystone cops at critical points. We can clean all of this up. Cam needs to get his head right on offense and obi needs to lock in more on D. Very fixable I think

They also won because they dominated the paint in the 4th. So many second and third chance points, and then our guys getting blocked at the other end. If you looked only at the fourth quarter, it was just abuse. Honestly, I can't say way. It seems like Mitch and iHart are two physically imposing guys, as is Randle. But they came up small. Worth giving Sims minutes in those situations? I don't know.

Uptown wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I also think this lineup just doesn't seem balanced. I know it's still early in the season but I think the problems that we hoped Brunson would fix still remain because they were problems that existed before and may be unfixable. I have been tough on Randle but so far this season I do see him trying harder to remain focused, give a better defensive effort and not escalate when things go south. That said the problems remain with him and RJ coexisting with limited outside shooting around them. RJ has struggled much of this season as Brunson adjusts to the offense. I've said for a few years now that RJ and Randle coexisting offensively seems to stunt each other's growth and suspect it will continue (even when RJ comes around and starts to play better).

So what can we do? Grimes will eventually return and is certainly worth looking at for replacing Fournier. I wonder if until then - it's worth it to try Toppin at the 3 position to see if he can be more effective since Fournier doesn't seem to be a long-term consideration and is so poor defensively that I'm wondering if Toppin would really be worse.

Potential Benefits are...
RJ could return to the SG position (and hopefully with shoot well) so we get a little better defensively in backcourt. This may help Brunson and RJ play to their strengths better.

Toppin's poor rebounding isn't as negatively impacting in the SF slot and he leaks out much of the time anyway.

Toppin doesn't need the ball (won't take away from Brunson, RJ, Randle iso), plays at a faster pace and (if focused) has the athleticism to guard SFs.

RJ at 6'6" and limited athletically compared to an athletic/fast Obi at 6'8" may force opposing SF's to have to work harder on the defense end.

We're getting lousy production from the combo of Fournier and RJ at the SG and SF positions

We can finally put to rest if Toppin deserves a greater role on this team and since it's always been Obi vs Randle - maybe this debate finally ends

Definitely understand the concerns about the defensive pairing of Obi/Randle but maybe the benefits outweigh the negative/concerns and we at least play faster with more ball movement... until Grimes returns at least? Brunson is doing his job and while I'm sure RJ will pick it up soon - we're still a middle of the pack team (at best) with the current team dynamic we have going on... so why not change it up?

Thoughts?

Brunson has already fixed a lot of the issues with ball movement on offense. If we didn’t have Brunson or some other viable pg we are 2-4 or 1-5 right now

Brunson has helped with ball movement and more importantly, he gives us an efficient, high IQ player that we can rely on at the end of games that will get us a high quality shot. We saw that against the Hornets. Last year, that would have been an L and the last couple of shots from us to close the game would have been low percentage shots with a turnover or two in the mix.

What Brunson hasn't changed is that our 2 highest usage players and shot takers are still inefficient. It's still early in the season, but I agree with Jskinnnny...I don't think RJ and Randle are a good mix and at some point down the road, one of them may need to moved. I think some in the front office are aware, which is why RJ almost got shipped out this summer.

100% and I'd go further in saying that I think the FO knows both Randle and RJ are probably not starters on a high level playoff team. But up until they have a trade in hand, they have to do their best to support, grow, build around ('ish) until that day.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:I also think this lineup just doesn't seem balanced. I know it's still early in the season but I think the problems that we hoped Brunson would fix still remain because they were problems that existed before and may be unfixable. I have been tough on Randle but so far this season I do see him trying harder to remain focused, give a better defensive effort and not escalate when things go south. That said the problems remain with him and RJ coexisting with limited outside shooting around them. RJ has struggled much of this season as Brunson adjusts to the offense. I've said for a few years now that RJ and Randle coexisting offensively seems to stunt each other's growth and suspect it will continue (even when RJ comes around and starts to play better).

So what can we do? Grimes will eventually return and is certainly worth looking at for replacing Fournier. I wonder if until then - it's worth it to try Toppin at the 3 position to see if he can be more effective since Fournier doesn't seem to be a long-term consideration and is so poor defensively that I'm wondering if Toppin would really be worse.

Potential Benefits are...
RJ could return to the SG position (and hopefully with shoot well) so we get a little better defensively in backcourt. This may help Brunson and RJ play to their strengths better.

Toppin's poor rebounding isn't as negatively impacting in the SF slot and he leaks out much of the time anyway.

Toppin doesn't need the ball (won't take away from Brunson, RJ, Randle iso), plays at a faster pace and (if focused) has the athleticism to guard SFs.

RJ at 6'6" and limited athletically compared to an athletic/fast Obi at 6'8" may force opposing SF's to have to work harder on the defense end.

We're getting lousy production from the combo of Fournier and RJ at the SG and SF positions

We can finally put to rest if Toppin deserves a greater role on this team and since it's always been Obi vs Randle - maybe this debate finally ends

Definitely understand the concerns about the defensive pairing of Obi/Randle but maybe the benefits outweigh the negative/concerns and we at least play faster with more ball movement... until Grimes returns at least? Brunson is doing his job and while I'm sure RJ will pick it up soon - we're still a middle of the pack team (at best) with the current team dynamic we have going on... so why not change it up?

Thoughts?

Brunson has already fixed a lot of the issues with ball movement on offense. If we didn’t have Brunson or some other viable pg we are 2-4 or 1-5 right now

Brunson has helped with ball movement and more importantly, he gives us an efficient, high IQ player that we can rely on at the end of games that will get us a high quality shot. We saw that against the Hornets. Last year, that would have been an L and the last couple of shots from us to close the game would have been low percentage shots with a turnover or two in the mix.

What Brunson hasn't changed is that our 2 highest usage players and shot takers are still inefficient. It's still early in the season, but I agree with Jskinnnny...I don't think RJ and Randle are a good mix and at some point down the road, one of them may need to moved. I think some in the front office are aware, which is why RJ almost got shipped out this summer.

100% and I'd go further in saying that I think the FO knows both Randle and RJ are probably not starters on a high level playoff team. But up until they have a trade in hand, they have to do their best to support, grow, build around ('ish) until that day.

Who do you think is that is on this team?

Panos wrote:

Chandler wrote:I’m not going to overreact to this one

They won because of love and DM hitting threes. My big complaint would be letting love get the ball. Why sag off tHat guy?

Obi cam and Fournier looked liked keystone cops at critical points. We can clean all of this up. Cam needs to get his head right on offense and obi needs to lock in more on D. Very fixable I think

They also won because they dominated the paint in the 4th. So many second and third chance points, and then our guys getting blocked at the other end. If you looked only at the fourth quarter, it was just abuse. Honestly, I can't say way. It seems like Mitch and iHart are two physically imposing guys, as is Randle. But they came up small. Worth giving Sims minutes in those situations? I don't know.

We had 9 assists in the 3rd during that great run. In the fourth we forgot that there is more to do with the ball than 1v1 plays. So we started playing hero ball and we have taken some horrendous shots. Much easier to defend for the Cavs. Which gave the Cavs momentum and there's that. The Cavs are one of the top 3 point shooting teams in the league so they can put up points in a hurry.

Panos wrote:When the opposing team gets hot, the Knicks have no stabilizing factor on the court, and they seem unable to do anything. Can't play D, can't box out or get a defensive rebound. It's super ugly to watch. THey look like a G league team.

Some more perspective from the way back machine