https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/team/...To me differential is all stats tied into 1. It values your play against all teams and the records show the correlation obviously. We’ve played our w and l above the -3.
We’re also 29 in 3 point % and 26 overall in fga%
We’re gonna have to make some hard decisions. I think we should be sellers except for Brunson and possibly randle( who’s trade value is now reasonable). We don’t play much team basketball. If I was doing this I need a6-6–6-8 additional pg to play next to Brunson. I want more athletic length in our reserves and we need a guy who is more than one dimensional at center. The worst spot in the nba is capped out and around 38 win pace. It leaves us out of a higher pick we’re limited in free agency and we simply piece meal a mediocre team then blame the coach for losing. I don’t see how constructed were gonna bust from 23 to 10– it’s long travels in short time.
We’re also in a spot where the nba is filled with more teams w decent records who may not be interested in trading at all. Indiana Utah etc
I’d like a team with a chance to win the whole thing. We still build teams w fringe playoff hopes just to keep up some interest for fans.if mediocrity is what is aspired to— that sux
this is a tough one. I mean, we should Hinkie this roster. Everyone wants to trade Randle, but RJ is the one we should trade. And I would happily take Ben Simmons!
But, we honestly should look to send him to Toronto where we can pitch him having upside with a smaller market/home town cooking.
I'd also say our 3pt shooting should get better, though at this point, it probably is what it is.
But you are right - we should be sellers - even Mitchell Robinson- trade him if someone is interested - and if I free cap space and get marginal assets back like a 2nd rounder, I think that is a win.
franco12 wrote:this is a tough one. I mean, we should Hinkie this roster. Everyone wants to trade Randle, but RJ is the one we should trade. And I would happily take Ben Simmons!But, we honestly should look to send him to Toronto where we can pitch him having upside with a smaller market/home town cooking.
I'd also say our 3pt shooting should get better, though at this point, it probably is what it is.
But you are right - we should be sellers - even Mitchell Robinson- trade him if someone is interested - and if I free cap space and get marginal assets back like a 2nd rounder, I think that is a win.
Three point shooting and Simmons should not be in the same thought.
Agree that we are closer to needing to make a decision. Have to give it some time to see how Grimes and MR being back help. Have to give RJ and IQ some time to get their confidence back. But yeah, trade deadline may be the time for some big FO decisions..
Main issues, imo, are still that we do not have consistent shooting and that our players do not compliment each other. It is never good when your star SG is basically the same as your PF and SF(when Cam is in). Meaning they are at their best when muscling themselves to the basket and don't have much of a three point shot. .
Randle is best at staying around the basket but who can he kick it out to if double teamed? Who can JB kick it out to when he penetrates? We do not even have a big that can pop to hit a consistent 15 footer off a PnR?
Our second unit, which was a strength, now has guys that are unable to make a shot.
Basically, all the hopefuls have let us down...Again.
Is DM still available? 
franco12 wrote:this is a tough one. I mean, we should Hinkie this roster. Everyone wants to trade Randle, but RJ is the one we should trade. And I would happily take Ben Simmons!But, we honestly should look to send him to Toronto where we can pitch him having upside with a smaller market/home town cooking.
I'd also say our 3pt shooting should get better, though at this point, it probably is what it is.
But you are right - we should be sellers - even Mitchell Robinson- trade him if someone is interested - and if I free cap space and get marginal assets back like a 2nd rounder, I think that is a win.
I don't think this is "a tough one" at all. The standard for competition has been raised throughout the league and looks like it will be the new norm moving forward with an influx of impressive players over the next few drafts. Even teams angling to tank are tough outs and will have to resort to resting players to skew win totals to this end.
And in spite of all that, the Knicks are trying to put their best foot forward and are still mediocre— at best. What we're doing is a recipe to no-man's land in the NBA: good enough to never pick an elite prospect in the draft, bad enough to not even earn a playoff berth. With no disgruntled star on the horizon to change our fortune or prospect on our team that can grow into one, we should be the first team to begin a sell-off. It would be better to set that market, rather than to wait and see it shift against us after teams make their moves.
My recommendation? Try to help the Nets to facilitate their inevitable tear-down this season. Framework would be them sending Kyrie and KD (with us chipping in Mitchell Robinson) to the Lakers; our Donovan Mitchell package (save our 2023 first round pick), the Lakers' draft capital and Russell Westbrook to the Nets; while we get Anthony Davis. I'd shut Davis down for the year, tank and try to position ourselves as best we can in the Wembenyama sweepstakes. If things finally break right for us that starting 5 of Jalen Brunson (PG), Quentin Grimes (G/F), RJ Barrett (F), Victor Wembenyama (F) and Anthony Davis (F/C) would be impressive enough to scale with.
BRIGGS wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/team/...To me differential is all stats tied into 1. It values your play against all teams and the records show the correlation obviously. We’ve played our w and l above the -3.
Small sample size of games and the Knicks have had some really bad blowouts that skew the differential. Eh
There are other better things to base your premise off of.
BRIGGS wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/team/...To me differential is all stats tied into 1. It values your play against all teams and the records show the correlation obviously. We’ve played our w and l above the -3.
We’re also 29 in 3 point % and 26 overall in fga%
We’re gonna have to make some hard decisions. I think we should be sellers except for Brunson and possibly randle( who’s trade value is now reasonable). We don’t play much team basketball. If I was doing this I need a6-6–6-8 additional pg to play next to Brunson. I want more athletic length in our reserves and we need a guy who is more than one dimensional at center. The worst spot in the nba is capped out and around 38 win pace. It leaves us out of a higher pick we’re limited in free agency and we simply piece meal a mediocre team then blame the coach for losing. I don’t see how constructed were gonna bust from 23 to 10– it’s long travels in short time.
We’re also in a spot where the nba is filled with more teams w decent records who may not be interested in trading at all. Indiana Utah etc
I’d like a team with a chance to win the whole thing. We still build teams w fringe playoff hopes just to keep up some interest for fans.if mediocrity is what is aspired to— that sux
Briggs you have a tendency to get really high or really low based on the most recent game. Let’s see what this team looks like whole with grimes and Robinson in the lineup and cam in the rotation off the bench. Grimes showed a lot of what we are missing. If his shots start falling (they will when he gets his rhythm ) you should feel better about this group. It’s not without flaws but grimes addresses many of them. This road trip could have been a nightmare and the Knicks went 2-2.
martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/team/...To me differential is all stats tied into 1. It values your play against all teams and the records show the correlation obviously. We’ve played our w and l above the -3.
Small sample size of games and the Knicks have had some really bad blowouts that skew the differential. Eh
There are other better things to base your premise off of.
17 games is 20%. That is not a small sample size. Take out our two wins against Detroit - there is something that skews the early results - and things look far worse.
And even in wins, our defense is piss poor.
The preseason predication of 38.5 seems absolutely on target, possibly overly optimistic.
I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
nyvector16 wrote:I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
Aybe. But what guarantee do we have that a tank gets us a Superstar? We are the Knicks remember.
Also, we already have a lot of assets and picks. Maybe get a proven star? That keeps us from wasting another 5 years to only have a playoff team that gets us out in first round so that we have to rebuild all over again. Tired of the groundhog day. I like Miami's approach. Pick well in draft but also go after top FAs/stars.
What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
KnickDanger wrote:What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
Well, Lakers are in year 3 of tanking right after they won. Or is their re-tooling just that bad lol
KnickDanger wrote:What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
I dont like the word tank. But its good to have a very high pick to win championships
Michael Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
curry
lebron
its pretty much a lock that you need a player like this to win. Only way to get them is to be at the right place at the right time. Lets say for one instance you add Anthony davis to this team and move 3 draft picks and three young players---are we still close? Its a lor of me first players on a low % team. teh style of play is poor and the players inefficient.
BRIGGS wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
I dont like the word tank. But its good to have a very high pick to win championships
Michael Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
curry
lebron
its pretty much a lock that you need a player like this to win. Only way to get them is to be at the right place at the right time. Lets say for one instance you add Anthony davis to this team and move 3 draft picks and three young players---are we still close? Its a lor of me first players on a low % team. teh style of play is poor and the players inefficient.
I looked at the last couple teams with a -3 differential - low 30s on win total.
SO - figure 32/33.
And here - maybe you are thinking about the last time we were in a similar spot - with MDA in 2008-9 - where we won 32 games, just enough to not get the franchise player.
franco12 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
I dont like the word tank. But its good to have a very high pick to win championships
Michael Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
curry
lebron
its pretty much a lock that you need a player like this to win. Only way to get them is to be at the right place at the right time. Lets say for one instance you add Anthony davis to this team and move 3 draft picks and three young players---are we still close? Its a lor of me first players on a low % team. teh style of play is poor and the players inefficient.
I looked at the last couple teams with a -3 differential - low 30s on win total.
SO - figure 32/33.
And here - maybe you are thinking about the last time we were in a similar spot - with MDA in 2008-9 - where we won 32 games, just enough to not get the franchise player.
Differential is the best stat--over 82 games it tells what is what. -3 is a lottery team. Maybe we play better with Robinson starting maybe Grimes steps up maybe guys shoot better but if you look at it not super likely.
BRIGGS wrote:franco12 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:KnickDanger wrote:What's the list of championship teams who tanked?
I dont like the word tank. But its good to have a very high pick to win championships
Michael Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
curry
lebron
its pretty much a lock that you need a player like this to win. Only way to get them is to be at the right place at the right time. Lets say for one instance you add Anthony davis to this team and move 3 draft picks and three young players---are we still close? Its a lor of me first players on a low % team. teh style of play is poor and the players inefficient.
I looked at the last couple teams with a -3 differential - low 30s on win total.
SO - figure 32/33.
And here - maybe you are thinking about the last time we were in a similar spot - with MDA in 2008-9 - where we won 32 games, just enough to not get the franchise player.
Differential is the best stat--over 82 games it tells what is what. -3 is a lottery team. Maybe we play better with Robinson starting maybe Grimes steps up maybe guys shoot better but if you look at it not super likely.
Last year we did seem to pick up our play after the season was over. I mean, 17 games is 20% of the season. We've played good teams, won some that maybe we shouldn't have, we've played bad teams and won some that we would have lost last year. And we've played generally horrible defense throughout.
I do think we should be better, but where that is coming from, I don't see likely.
Maybe the FO sees the same and that is behind the rumor to trade IQ/Rose?
franco12 wrote:martin wrote:BRIGGS wrote:https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/team/...To me differential is all stats tied into 1. It values your play against all teams and the records show the correlation obviously. We’ve played our w and l above the -3.
Small sample size of games and the Knicks have had some really bad blowouts that skew the differential. Eh
There are other better things to base your premise off of.
17 games is 20%. That is not a small sample size. Take out our two wins against Detroit - there is something that skews the early results - and things look far worse.
And even in wins, our defense is piss poor.
The preseason predication of 38.5 seems absolutely on target, possibly overly optimistic.
The talent level in the East has gotten considerably better. There are not that many games we should win.
Is the state adjusted for strength of schedule? Basketball reference has us at below average for SOS but I don't really feel that way at all. It seems like with the exception of Milwaukee, Boston, Phoenix, and Golden State, the Knicks had a chance to win every game. Now that the schedule will be considerably easier for the next 15 games, I think it's too early to panic.
With most of the roster locked in on multi year deals, how do you even tank? RJ Randle Brunson Robinson all have 4 years left, Fournier 2. I really think the front office knows what it's doing. Build a playoff team and then try to land a star.
nyvector16 wrote:I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
Been saying that since the Kemba benching era began……And why I was ridiculed by my own knick brotherens. When I said play the yoots. We not going no where fast with these vets. What that means is play your future and see what Obi looks like with Randle mins. What cam looks like with RJ mins or as we saw starter mins. Might be our most versatile 2way wing defender.
After this season we go into the off season and now we can make confident DM like trades with yoot data, knowing who fits and who impacts,etc…… Who knows, if we started this full youth movement earlier, we probably would’ve traded RJ,yoots and pics for dm early on in negotiations. But we was unprepared…………Let’s learn from not repeat the SAME MISTAKES.
Either decision results in a trade. No decision mean we continue down this same hybrid path to compete and develop. But without drafting a star in the top of the draft, we will continue to pick in the middle to bottom of the 1st and grab a solid roll player. There’s no clear Lebron type trade or player that’s available and will change this entire team.
nyvector16 wrote:I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
Thought we did that?
2015 #4
2017 #8
2018 #9
2019 #3
2020 #8
Time to use some of our hopefuls and draft assets for guys that truly will make a difference.
Just had a chance to add one but did not work out. Have to see next one that may come available and hope a couple of the past draft picks put it together.
blkexec wrote:nyvector16 wrote:I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
Been saying that since the Kemba benching era began……And why I was ridiculed by my own knick brotherens. When I said play the yoots. We not going no where fast with these vets. What that means is play your future and see what Obi looks like with Randle mins. What cam looks like with RJ mins or as we saw starter mins. Might be our most versatile 2way wing defender.
After this season we go into the off season and now we can make confident DM like trades with yoot data, knowing who fits and who impacts,etc…… Who knows, if we started this full youth movement earlier, we probably would’ve traded RJ,yoots and pics for dm early on in negotiations. But we was unprepared…………Let’s learn from not repeat the SAME MISTAKES.
Either decision results in a trade. No decision mean we continue down this same hybrid path to compete and develop. But without drafting a star in the top of the draft, we will continue to pick in the middle to bottom of the 1st and grab a solid roll player. There’s no clear Lebron type trade or player that’s available and will change this entire team.
Out of 4379 total minutes played, someone 24 or under has played all but 1687 of them? ( Brunson, Randle, Rose EF)
The FO has put together a roster of 9 players 24 or under.
Obi has had second unit minutes, like everyone else that is not a starter.
Has also had extra minutes the last three games at the 5. Not taking advantage of them.
HofstraBBall wrote:blkexec wrote:nyvector16 wrote:I would rather focus on a retooling now and start the tank machine then struggle to make the 8th seed, lose in the play-in and lose out on generational talent with no top pick.
Why put pressure to win, when we know what we have is not enough.
Our fastest vehicle to improvement is the draft...
Been saying that since the Kemba benching era began……And why I was ridiculed by my own knick brotherens. When I said play the yoots. We not going no where fast with these vets. What that means is play your future and see what Obi looks like with Randle mins. What cam looks like with RJ mins or as we saw starter mins. Might be our most versatile 2way wing defender.
After this season we go into the off season and now we can make confident DM like trades with yoot data, knowing who fits and who impacts,etc…… Who knows, if we started this full youth movement earlier, we probably would’ve traded RJ,yoots and pics for dm early on in negotiations. But we was unprepared…………Let’s learn from not repeat the SAME MISTAKES.
Either decision results in a trade. No decision mean we continue down this same hybrid path to compete and develop. But without drafting a star in the top of the draft, we will continue to pick in the middle to bottom of the 1st and grab a solid roll player. There’s no clear Lebron type trade or player that’s available and will change this entire team.
Out of 4379 total minutes played, someone 24 or under has played all but 1687 of them? ( Brunson, Randle, Rose EF)
The FO has put together a roster of 9 players 24 or under.
Obi has had second unit minutes, like everyone else that is not a starter.
Has also had extra minutes the last three games at the 5. Not taking advantage of them.
Can you please stop using facts to mess with the narrative? Ask Rose Butler KAT Wiggins or IQ- Thibs doesn't play youngsters!
