Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:GustavBahler wrote:ramtour420 wrote:Chandler wrote:
another guy who seems lost and the CS isn't really helping IMO. his game at the moment in 3Pt or leak out dunks. occassional back door cutswhy he's not in a PnR or PnP game with the second unit ala Amare is befuddling
Because Amar'e had Nash who was a PnR maestro and MDA whose whole offense was built around the PnR
Dont believe we need a Nash-like talent to get more production out of Obi. Just a strategy to get him going in a half court set, Which I havent seen yet.
I don't see how we're not running that with Rose or IQ. Obi should roll to hoop for layups or dunks depending and he has now shown he can step back for a pop too. i honestly don't know if we have a plan for him. His strength is scoring so if he stinks some on D we should at least punish the opponent on the other end and hopefully he gets more points than he gives
Been saying this since last year. Obi's athletic ability and vertical game is not being utilized. Obi should be rolling to the basket off PNR's and he has shown that he has a good touch in the mid range. Right now he is mainly hanging outside the 3 point line and is only being utilized as a stretch 4. I do think, more minutes and more confidence would also help his overall game and confidence.
To defend Obi. Most of these criticisms do not take into account what offense scheme we have. Defended Randle for the same. MR just mentioned it as well. Our offense scheme is designed to keep middle open. Mostly for JB, RJ and SF. It forces our power forwards and Centers to stay at the arc. Been saying that this is not best role for Randle or Obi. Sure guys can back cut but we have two guys in JB and RJ that just don't pass often off the drive. In term of PnR. Our scheme calls for high PnR. Not ones at foul line like STAT used to do. Nor is anyone flashing to the foul line. Different game now
Do agree that those should be put in place. Don't think anyone including themselves, like to see Obi and Randle just stay at the 3pt arc. One thing Obi Cam do is drive when guys are running at him at the three.
BigDaddyG wrote:blkexec wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He’s over emphasized 3 point shooting and it takes away his physical gifts
More Generational issue than Obi
You can say the same thing for 90% of TODAYS nba players.
I kinda agree with Briggs on this and I don't think it's a conscious decision by Obi. I think Thibs is leaning on Obi to bomb away and I don't really blame. He was the hottest shooter on the team when no one else was really hitting. I do think the team as a whole could do a better job find Mitch and Obi when they do dive to the hoop tho.
My take is teams are sagging off in effect daring him to shoot. That said, i like that he's hitting more and he's a better shooter than RJ. Just super frustrated that we're not exploiting his offensive game more
HofstraBBall wrote:Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:GustavBahler wrote:ramtour420 wrote:Chandler wrote:
another guy who seems lost and the CS isn't really helping IMO. his game at the moment in 3Pt or leak out dunks. occassional back door cutswhy he's not in a PnR or PnP game with the second unit ala Amare is befuddling
Because Amar'e had Nash who was a PnR maestro and MDA whose whole offense was built around the PnR
Dont believe we need a Nash-like talent to get more production out of Obi. Just a strategy to get him going in a half court set, Which I havent seen yet.
I don't see how we're not running that with Rose or IQ. Obi should roll to hoop for layups or dunks depending and he has now shown he can step back for a pop too. i honestly don't know if we have a plan for him. His strength is scoring so if he stinks some on D we should at least punish the opponent on the other end and hopefully he gets more points than he gives
Been saying this since last year. Obi's athletic ability and vertical game is not being utilized. Obi should be rolling to the basket off PNR's and he has shown that he has a good touch in the mid range. Right now he is mainly hanging outside the 3 point line and is only being utilized as a stretch 4. I do think, more minutes and more confidence would also help his overall game and confidence.
To defend Obi. Most of these criticisms do not take into account what offense scheme we have. Defended Randle for the same. MR just mentioned it as well. Our offense scheme is designed to keep middle open. Mostly for JB, RJ and SF. It forces our power forwards and Centers to stay at the arc. Been saying that this is not best role for Randle or Obi. Sure guys can back cut but we have two guys in JB and RJ that just don't pass often off the drive. In term of PnR. Our scheme calls for high PnR. Not ones at foul line like STAT used to do. Nor is anyone flashing to the foul line. Different game now
Do agree that those should be put in place. Don't think anyone including themselves, like to see Obi and Randle just stay at the 3pt arc. One thing Obi Cam do is drive when guys are running at him at the three.
Good observation and I agree with everything you wrote. However, Thibs has shown that he can adjust his schemes for specific players. For example, while the offense, like most teams is predicated on an open-paint, dribble drive attack, he does have many instances where he will plant Randle at the elbow and let him for to work. When you have an athlete like Obi, why not utilize his vertical game? When Obi is in the game, we can definitely run a few PNR's at the top the key which allow Obi an opportunity to roll to the rack or pick and pop if the lob aint there. Every perimeter shot from Obi doesn't have to be a 3.
Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
I rememeber Obi being touted as the most NBA ready ready player in draft class. Not so much.
Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
This is not how reality works.
Obi can do good things in 15 or 18 or 20 minutes or whatever minutes he is given. No player should be given the excuse that he isn't GIVEN enough minutes.
No, you TAKE minutes by playing well for 5 minutes or 8 minutes or whatever and build on that.
This ain't kindergartners who you need to encourage and pat on the back when they seem to do well. No sir
Randle is doing his part by playing like shit every other game and inviting every opportunity for Obi and Obi ain't taking it.
martin wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
This is not how reality works.
Obi can do good things in 15 or 18 or 20 minutes or whatever minutes he is given. No player should be given the excuse that he isn't GIVEN enough minutes.
No, you TAKE minutes by playing well for 5 minutes or 8 minutes or whatever and build on that.
This ain't kindergartners who you need to encourage and pat on the back when they seem to do well. No sir
Randle is doing his part by playing like shit every other game and inviting every opportunity for Obi and Obi ain't taking it.
but that doesnt fit with the bad coach narrative that the reason these guys arent better is Thibs doesnt play the kids.
The thing that frustrates me is there's no pressure from Obi for Randle to play better. Would be nice to have Jules looking over his shoulder but there is zero threat right now of anyone taking his minutes any time soon 
Uptown wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Uptown wrote:Chandler wrote:GustavBahler wrote:ramtour420 wrote:Chandler wrote:
another guy who seems lost and the CS isn't really helping IMO. his game at the moment in 3Pt or leak out dunks. occassional back door cutswhy he's not in a PnR or PnP game with the second unit ala Amare is befuddling
Because Amar'e had Nash who was a PnR maestro and MDA whose whole offense was built around the PnR
Dont believe we need a Nash-like talent to get more production out of Obi. Just a strategy to get him going in a half court set, Which I havent seen yet.
I don't see how we're not running that with Rose or IQ. Obi should roll to hoop for layups or dunks depending and he has now shown he can step back for a pop too. i honestly don't know if we have a plan for him. His strength is scoring so if he stinks some on D we should at least punish the opponent on the other end and hopefully he gets more points than he gives
Been saying this since last year. Obi's athletic ability and vertical game is not being utilized. Obi should be rolling to the basket off PNR's and he has shown that he has a good touch in the mid range. Right now he is mainly hanging outside the 3 point line and is only being utilized as a stretch 4. I do think, more minutes and more confidence would also help his overall game and confidence.
To defend Obi. Most of these criticisms do not take into account what offense scheme we have. Defended Randle for the same. MR just mentioned it as well. Our offense scheme is designed to keep middle open. Mostly for JB, RJ and SF. It forces our power forwards and Centers to stay at the arc. Been saying that this is not best role for Randle or Obi. Sure guys can back cut but we have two guys in JB and RJ that just don't pass often off the drive. In term of PnR. Our scheme calls for high PnR. Not ones at foul line like STAT used to do. Nor is anyone flashing to the foul line. Different game now
Do agree that those should be put in place. Don't think anyone including themselves, like to see Obi and Randle just stay at the 3pt arc. One thing Obi Cam do is drive when guys are running at him at the three.
Good observation and I agree with everything you wrote. However, Thibs has shown that he can adjust his schemes for specific players. For example, while the offense, like most teams is predicated on an open-paint, dribble drive attack, he does have many instances where he will plant Randle at the elbow and let him for to work. When you have an athlete like Obi, why not utilize his vertical game? When Obi is in the game, we can definitely run a few PNR's at the top the key which allow Obi an opportunity to roll to the rack or pick and pop if the lob aint there. Every perimeter shot from Obi doesn't have to be a 3.
Think you are right. Question is does Obi have the ability to pop and hit a 15 footer. Assuming if he had that he would first show it in practice. And if he did it well there, I am sure Thibs would utilize it.
Right now think we just don't have enough perimeter players and too many that need to drive or work down low to be efficient. If you trade Randle, we give up the only tough force down low. And a good rebounder. If we trade RJ, who needs the middle open to create offense, you give up a decent wing defender. Some would say our best. We know what we would look like without JB. But he is not best for defense and also needs the middle to create.
I would have preferred Murray and if we can upgrade from Randle and RJ. Wanted Grant and DM. But to get all those guys, we would be playing with just three players after giving up everything else we had.
Hoping Grimes gets it going.
RJ starts to see the floor and pass the ball.
MR stays healthy.
Rose gets healthy.
IQ keeps it going.
JB keeps it going but adds more dimes.
Obi adds some more on offense and improves rebounding and defense.
Randle takes less threes and more high effort
And that we get a true Superstar somehow.
martin wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
This is not how reality works.
Obi can do good things in 15 or 18 or 20 minutes or whatever minutes he is given. No player should be given the excuse that he isn't GIVEN enough minutes.
No, you TAKE minutes by playing well for 5 minutes or 8 minutes or whatever and build on that.
This ain't kindergartners who you need to encourage and pat on the back when they seem to do well. No sir
Randle is doing his part by playing like shit every other game and inviting every opportunity for Obi and Obi ain't taking it.
Obi is shooting 37% from 3 this year. He was hovering at 30% previous 2 seasons. It may not seem like a big jump but it is and having a big man, potentially a Center who can hit from 3 helps the offense. The perception of Obi is he sucks — not sure what he’s supposed to do exactly orchaestrate a GM in the western conference to suddenly want to absorb the Randle contract I guess
Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
Randle is much better. No matter what the Knicks do with Randle, they seriously fd up not taking Haliburton. The constant missing on elite guard talent in the draft is why the Knicks continue to go nowhere.
Philc1 wrote:martin wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
This is not how reality works.
Obi can do good things in 15 or 18 or 20 minutes or whatever minutes he is given. No player should be given the excuse that he isn't GIVEN enough minutes.
No, you TAKE minutes by playing well for 5 minutes or 8 minutes or whatever and build on that.
This ain't kindergartners who you need to encourage and pat on the back when they seem to do well. No sir
Randle is doing his part by playing like shit every other game and inviting every opportunity for Obi and Obi ain't taking it.
Obi is shooting 37% from 3 this year. He was hovering at 30% previous 2 seasons. It may not seem like a big jump but it is and having a big man, potentially a Center who can hit from 3 helps the offense. The perception of Obi is he sucks — not sure what he’s supposed to do exactly orchaestrate a GM in the western conference to suddenly want to absorb the Randle contract I guess
You are asking about what Obi could do more of outside of distance shooting? how about everything? Impact a game
martin wrote:Philc1 wrote:martin wrote:Philc1 wrote:Obi’s shooting has been much better this year. He’s a backup PF because Randle exists. If we somehow got rid of Randle Obi would be a nightly double double guy and be getting praised as a draft pick we hit on
This is not how reality works.
Obi can do good things in 15 or 18 or 20 minutes or whatever minutes he is given. No player should be given the excuse that he isn't GIVEN enough minutes.
No, you TAKE minutes by playing well for 5 minutes or 8 minutes or whatever and build on that.
This ain't kindergartners who you need to encourage and pat on the back when they seem to do well. No sir
Randle is doing his part by playing like shit every other game and inviting every opportunity for Obi and Obi ain't taking it.
Obi is shooting 37% from 3 this year. He was hovering at 30% previous 2 seasons. It may not seem like a big jump but it is and having a big man, potentially a Center who can hit from 3 helps the offense. The perception of Obi is he sucks — not sure what he’s supposed to do exactly orchaestrate a GM in the western conference to suddenly want to absorb the Randle contract I guess
You are asking about what Obi could do more of outside of distance shooting? how about everything? Impact a game
No doubt 37% is a great improvement.
However, some don't understand that even if Obi shoots in the high 30s consistently from three, pretending that is why we drafted Obi, is just not being honest.
I'm in the camp that Thibs isn't using Obi right, and might not even know how he wants to use him .
Hey, even D.Rose is saying he's not sure what his role is. D.Rose!! pause on that
Obi is a scorer. that's his strength
We're parking him in the corner like he's Steve Novak or Frank Ntlinkina. Is that Obi's fault, or is that because the Coach wants him there? If i were a defender I'd sag off him too
if the knicks wanted my advice they'd feature him more in the second unit ala Amar'e type role. either we learn he sucks at that, or he thrives. If he thrives worst case is we up his value in a trade or we start realizing that's another tool to employ when we need some offense
Randle is tough but has way below average vertical game. Have never seen a PF who otherwise looks so athletic get his shot blocked so often. He's trying to pump fake people because if he just goes up he gets stuffed
WE need to stop using Amare as the baseline. He is more Shawn Marion who shot 33% from 3.
Both were Allstars in mid twenties.
I love Obi's energy and enthusiasm.
How Thibs uses him vs. What the defense is giving him and taking away.
Im do get optimistic because Thibs players developed do hit the wall as if they are asked to add something and it messes them up. Where he and IQ used to get pulled, they are playing thru it. They, and Grimes are solid in this rotation as well as Cam. We are .500ish but our 2nd unit is younger than in the past. That is progress to some extent.
Nalod wrote:WE need to stop using Amare as the baseline. He is more Shawn Marion who shot 33% from 3.
Both were Allstars in mid twenties.
I love Obi's energy and enthusiasm.
How Thibs uses him vs. What the defense is giving him and taking away. Im do get optimistic because Thibs players developed do hit the wall as if they are asked to add something and it messes them up. Where he and IQ used to get pulled, they are playing thru it. They, and Grimes are solid in this rotation as well as Cam. We are .500ish but our 2nd unit is younger than in the past. That is progress to some extent.
Agree about the Obi-Marion comp and hope we can find him more minutes as a forward since they're mostly interchangeable anyway. Specifically would like to see Cam and Obi play minutes together since Cam can play decent defense and iso a bit (in place of Randle).
I'm not wanting to move on from IQ but I do think we should consider consolidating positions heading into the 2023 draft... IQ or Rose has value and packaged with another redundant player/position (eg Center position - have 3) could yield us another draft pick we could package to move up.
martin wrote:Dang
IQ, Maxey, Paul Reed and Kenyon Martin Jr. would've been available with those picks. Knicks did a lot of wheeling and dealing that draft, so who knows what went down.
D.Rose & Quickley PUSH the ball to get Toppin into the game. And PF Taj Gibson PUSH the ball on his defensive rebound to get Obi Toppin into the game.
Brunson & Randle always walk the ball down court to opponents already set defense, The Knicks never having ant set plays on offense, no picks no screens or players moving without the ball plays. Obi Toppin are stuck as a one on one player with the ball on the perimeter to pass or shoot over defender.
If the Knicks had ball movement and players moving without the ball, plus picks and screens Toppin would know what area on the court he should be practicing the most to shoot his 3's from the most?
The Knicks have little to no ball-movement in a lot of games. Why?
Even when Obi was shooting well, Thibs wouldn’t give him minutes, or rarely only did. We have a Thibs problem, not an Obi problem.
If the modern NBA is predicated on shooting a high number of 3s, what is our best shooter only playing for 17 minutes a game? Regardless of if he plays well or not?
The notion that Thibs is holding Obi to account is laughable when RJ is hoisting a miserable 281 from three and playing 34 minutes a night.
Obi might be an NBA role player at best, but Thibs ain’t using him right and isn’t using his talents and skills.
And in typical Knicks fashion, we’ll win just enough games to miss out on a franchise talent in the draft.
Why I am a fan still when this franchise grinds at my sensibilities with stupid and back wards.
martin wrote:I don't know what more needs to be said.He hits a few 3point shots and that's been a nice revelation. But the fast breaks are rarer and rarer and he has GOT to get some tough, in the scrum rebounds for team.
Do something that affects the game cause that's what is being asked of him and he is not doing it.
Obi can do that with 5 minutes of play or 15 or whatever, but DO IT
Could not agree more — playing soft as hell.
He is scared shitless to put the ball on the floor and attack the basket on anything outside of a clear path layup or dunk.
He looks weak as sh*t defensively and takes off early on what 80% of the other teams shots — add in he has been missing bunnies all year.
All that said - can we please get rid of extremely low in Randle - even though Randle provides our most physical presence.
