Knicks · Who can the Knicks get to prop up their second unit offense? (page 2)

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

I would also argue IQ has shown to be more consistent in his career. He might be going through a cold stretch but with Obi we’ve only seen flashes.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

Obi put up a lot of high difficulty shots in that game, as the number one option. Throwing the word "trash" out there isnt accurate. Not the only part of the season where he showed something. Only part of the season where they were running the offense mainly through him. Big reason why he finished strong last season.

IQ with a triple double wouldnt surprise me at all, at any time of the season. If he were used correctly. Quickley is a scorer first, not a PG. Some team will hopefully figure that out.

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

?
That would be an expensive sixth man.

Afraid to ask...
How do you get salaries to match in a trade?
Why would DeRozan want to play in a second unit?
Why would Bulls trade DeRozan for IQ and fillers?

Imo, Knicks just need to give current second unit a chance. Feel Obi will hel as Sims and Hart both in are limited. Deuce will have to pick it up as well.
Feel patience applies. This second unit has been together for two weeks. How about we give them a reasonable chance. Especially since we are WINNING.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

Obi put up a lot of high difficulty shots in that game, as the number one option. Throwing the word "trash" out there isnt accurate. Not the only part of the season where he showed something. Only part of the season where they were running the offense mainly through him. Big reason why he finished strong last season.

IQ with a triple double wouldnt surprise me at all, at any time of the season. If he were used correctly. Quickley is a scorer first, not a PG. Some team will hopefully figure that out.

gradyandrew wrote:I think when Thibs shortened the rotation, he made it so at least one of Randle JB or RJ is always on the court. Since that seems to be the key factor in our success over this stretch (our big 3 all getting stretches at initiating the offense) I don't think anything needs to change.

How many times do we have to see RJ start playing like a crack head in this role before we are like 'if we have playoff aspirations we need to fix this'? Small sample size of RJ with the 2nd unit so far but I'm already like 'nah'

gradyandrew wrote:I think when Thibs shortened the rotation, he made it so at least one of Randle JB or RJ is always on the court. Since that seems to be the key factor in our success over this stretch (our big 3 all getting stretches at initiating the offense) I don't think anything needs to change.

Just let it go for now. Orlando has won 6 in a row plus at Boston b-b. I feel like when Brunson is on court good things will happen.
We’ll have to see how the sims harkenstein mcbrideiq unit holds up. So far it’s been a solid neutral which is good. Sims won’t go 1-6 like obi might. Just need iq to step up offense and we’re ok

VDesai wrote:I know we're thinking about how do we level up, but in all honesty a guy like Alec Burks will be available and you know he can play D and Thibs love him. And he can obviously put the ball in the bucket and get his own shot. Burks has been playing great for Detroit this year, but with Cade going down, doesn't make a lot of sense to keep him. Cam for Burks?

Can the Knicks legally trade back for him this year ?

fishmike wrote:isnt this EXACTLY what Obi is supposed to do?

Obi has zero ability to create offense. He’s not that guy.

fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

wargames wrote:

blkexec wrote:It’s like a balance beam or seesaw effect. Adding offense to the second unit means you have to sacrifice defense somewhere.

The reality is we will have a deficit somewhere regardless which direction we go. Add EF and defense suffers. Add deuce and offense suffers. The real question is which pain point can Thibs overcome.

We all thought if you give thibs offensive players, he can help them improve their defense. That hasn’t worked.

So thibs did the opposite. Removed the offensive roll players for defense roll players. Thibs knows how to win with defensively wired players and we needed that defense in the second unit to compliment the offensive big 3 we have.

I think we finally have a nice balance and maybe the answer is not externally but internal development. Helping deuce with his 3pt form. Help IQ change his mindset from a backup PG to a scoring 6th man. Convince RJ he can be a star like derozan without shooting 3s. Improve hart and get him more involved with his passing skills.

So many more developmental things we can do before messing with the chemistry thibs has cooked up.

The only issue with this is RJ and Randle are both playing near 40 minutes a game for this too work. It’s fun to be on a win streak doing it, but that isn’t sustainable for another 52 games and playoff serie(s). This team’s best players will be gassed again when it matters most. The Knicks need someone at the forward spot who can play significant minutes and get RJ/Randle down to the 32-35 minutes per night range.

I also don’t think Obi is that guy either. He is looking like an ancillary piece, not someone who can carry an offense or they can rely on to get buckets night in and out.

I disagree

This game from this year (last season) shows what Obi can do if he's the number one option. He was scoring from everywhere. His teamates were feeding the hot hand.

This season Obi is being parked in the corner, as a spot up shooter. I dont see anyone really making an effort to get him going this season. But he's expected to regularly drop buckets. Like I said, this isnt Steve Novak we're talking about. Someone you leave at the arc, and forget for the most part.

Not suggesting that Obi will regularly drop 40, if he gets more touches. Im confident he'll play well enough for there to be less talk about moving him.

trash time... those end of year games are fun but dont match real NBA intensity. IQ also finished with triple doubles and he's again painfully struggle to put the ball in the basket.

Obi hasnt really shown any of that this year beside hitting more 3s for a stretch. Would love to see it, but we have not SEEN it except in extended garbage time

Yeah I have a hard time trusting those end of season breakouts.

Rookie wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I think when Thibs shortened the rotation, he made it so at least one of Randle JB or RJ is always on the court. Since that seems to be the key factor in our success over this stretch (our big 3 all getting stretches at initiating the offense) I don't think anything needs to change.

How many times do we have to see RJ start playing like a crack head in this role before we are like 'if we have playoff aspirations we need to fix this'? Small sample size of RJ with the 2nd unit so far but I'm already like 'nah'

I think it goes for the whole team: as long as it takes.

The Knicks are in dev mode and we will see these guys fail over and over and over again. As long as there is some progress is some aspects of what they are trying to do, you keep doing it.

Knixkik wrote:

VDesai wrote:I know we're thinking about how do we level up, but in all honesty a guy like Alec Burks will be available and you know he can play D and Thibs love him. And he can obviously put the ball in the bucket and get his own shot. Burks has been playing great for Detroit this year, but with Cade going down, doesn't make a lot of sense to keep him. Cam for Burks?

Can the Knicks legally trade back for him this year ?

I think you are correct on this.

gradyandrew wrote:I think when Thibs shortened the rotation, he made it so at least one of Randle JB or RJ is always on the court. Since that seems to be the key factor in our success over this stretch (our big 3 all getting stretches at initiating the offense) I don't think anything needs to change.

That’s been a key factor, but it’s dependent on none of them missing any time during the year.

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I think when Thibs shortened the rotation, he made it so at least one of Randle JB or RJ is always on the court. Since that seems to be the key factor in our success over this stretch (our big 3 all getting stretches at initiating the offense) I don't think anything needs to change.

How many times do we have to see RJ start playing like a crack head in this role before we are like 'if we have playoff aspirations we need to fix this'? Small sample size of RJ with the 2nd unit so far but I'm already like 'nah'

I think it goes for the whole team: as long as it takes.

The Knicks are in dev mode and we will see these guys fail over and over and over again. As long as there is some progress is some aspects of what they are trying to do, you keep doing it.

I'd like to see RJ play like RJ instead of trying to ape what Randle does. RJ barely does RJ well

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Pie in the sky? Chicago is notoriously cheap and it's starting to look like the players are giving up on their season. That can't be a good locker room right now with all of the losing. I think a lot depends on what happens with Ball. Can he come back healthy and they start winning? We could give them some expiring contracts like a Rose (feel good story) and Cam. That would save them 20M next season. Throw in a good young player like Obi or IQ and why wouldn't they start a reboot. By the trade deadline they will know if it's time to blow it up or not.

I think the Knicks have gone with a more traditional top-6 player rotation in December.
The interesting piece here is that Brunson has actually played fewer minutes (perhaps due to nagging injury, perhaps because Quickley is running the offense reasonably well AND is playing KILLER defense).

Answering the question - I reckon we get a little more versatile offensive punch if you bring in Obi vs Sims.

But worth noting, Quickley, Hartenstein, and McBride are all playmates and have potential as 2-way players - so the lingering starters can coast a little. Hartenstein in particular is a difference maker - he's a better passer and more versatile offensive player than Mitch, and that makes the Knicks a little more free flowing.

Here's what the minutes breakdown has looked like:
Players with over 20mpg from Dec 1 to present.

Randle: 35.3
RJ: 35.1
Grimes: 33.6
Brunson: 30.7
Mitch: 28.3
Quickley: 26.9

Players with over 20 mpg for the season:
RJ: 34.4
Randle: 33.8
Brunson: 32.1
Mitch: 24.8
Grimes: 24.7
Quickley: 23.7
Cam: 21.9
Hartenstein: 20.3
Fournier: 20

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Pie in the sky? Chicago is notoriously cheap and it's starting to look like the players are giving up on their season. That can't be a good locker room right now with all of the losing. I think a lot depends on what happens with Ball. Can he come back healthy and they start winning? We could give them some expiring contracts like a Rose (feel good story) and Cam. That would save them 20M next season. Throw in a good young player like Obi or IQ and why wouldn't they start a reboot. By the trade deadline they will know if it's time to blow it up or not.

I’m with you. I’m saying it more from the perspective of expecting DeRozan to approve of and adjust to a 6th man role. Seems like it would be a tough transition for many reasons. He was an allstar last year.

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Pie in the sky? Chicago is notoriously cheap and it's starting to look like the players are giving up on their season. That can't be a good locker room right now with all of the losing. I think a lot depends on what happens with Ball. Can he come back healthy and they start winning? We could give them some expiring contracts like a Rose (feel good story) and Cam. That would save them 20M next season. Throw in a good young player like Obi or IQ and why wouldn't they start a reboot. By the trade deadline they will know if it's time to blow it up or not.

I’m with you. I’m saying it more from the perspective of expecting DeRozan to approve of and adjust to a 6th man role. Seems like it would be a tough transition for many reasons. He was an allstar last year.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Pie in the sky? Chicago is notoriously cheap and it's starting to look like the players are giving up on their season. That can't be a good locker room right now with all of the losing. I think a lot depends on what happens with Ball. Can he come back healthy and they start winning? We could give them some expiring contracts like a Rose (feel good story) and Cam. That would save them 20M next season. Throw in a good young player like Obi or IQ and why wouldn't they start a reboot. By the trade deadline they will know if it's time to blow it up or not.

I’m with you. I’m saying it more from the perspective of expecting DeRozan to approve of and adjust to a 6th man role. Seems like it would be a tough transition for many reasons. He was an allstar last year.

I wanted to pay Derozan or Norm Powell the year we got Fournier. All those ships have sailed.. now is the time to keep building from within unless a legit top 15 guy is gonna shake loose

Same. I was a fan of DeRozan and Powell both.

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Rookie wrote:I would go all in and build a trade around IQ for Derozan and make Derozan our 6th man. The defense would take a hit but Derozan can get buckets and is also an excellent passer

There’s a pie in the sky idea. DeRozan is probably still a few years away from becoming a 6th man though. Indiana is said to be looking for a PF. Maybe Toppin for Duarte? Duarte has a rookie contract 1 year longer and we know how the front office and coaching staff feels about him. He’s not an elite scorer but he’s a young 2-way wing.

Pie in the sky? Chicago is notoriously cheap and it's starting to look like the players are giving up on their season. That can't be a good locker room right now with all of the losing. I think a lot depends on what happens with Ball. Can he come back healthy and they start winning? We could give them some expiring contracts like a Rose (feel good story) and Cam. That would save them 20M next season. Throw in a good young player like Obi or IQ and why wouldn't they start a reboot. By the trade deadline they will know if it's time to blow it up or not.

I’m with you. I’m saying it more from the perspective of expecting DeRozan to approve of and adjust to a 6th man role. Seems like it would be a tough transition for many reasons. He was an allstar last year.

I can’t disagree but I don’t think you’ll find anyone in this organization who doesn’t want to match up against Cleveland and Derozan gets us there. We could find a way to make it work. Knicks with Derozan could be a tough playoff team and Derozan is a finisher and we need that.