Knicks · Knicks keeping an eye on zack Lavin ahead of the trade deadline (page 2)

VDesai wrote:Torn on Lavine. I have been a big fan of his, but I don't think he fits that well - we have 3 20 ppg scorers and Grimes blend of 3 pt shooting/D is a better fit.

Question is would swap Barrett for Lavine and that's a hard call given Bulls will ask for more than Barrett.

Yep. And Lavine doesn’t really improve the needle much. Like you said we already have scorers. If anything we need to improve our bench scoring and wing defense. Lavine doesn’t fill those needs, he’s a starter or comes off the bench for a nba finals team trying to win a chip.

I think the starting unit is set and the bench is in flux. So I think making a trade to clean up the bench and add bench depth is the goal. But I think a better offensive player with 90% of deuce defensive skill set is what we need off the bench. I think Grimes is the baseline for what this team needs to fill out the roster.

Pass

As far as being clutch, grimes is growing into that clutch roll in crunch time playing off Randle and JB.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:My thing with RJ is he is three years younger than OG. Fans want what is.
OG is a very good player on both sides of the ball. He has a player option after next year which he will likely command a higher price.
RJ has a higher ceiling. But it will take 3 years to find out. Fans want it now.
RJ was a better defender prior to this year. Remember? He also was not buried on defense.
We can argue the what ifs. Is OG a tier one player? Not really. more efficient than RJ? Not much?
Issue is where is RJ in three years? At 25, is OG hit his ceiling? I’ll assume still room to improve some.

I’m not understanding your RJ reference in this thread. Are you saying it’s RJ or OG? Because I look at these moves for lavine or OG to play with RJ. It’s a pipe dream and probably will not happen if Toronto is asking for the farm. But if the FO can pull off a trade, I’m looking at these new players will play with RJ.

If the question is would I trade RJ for OG? That’s a different thread topic than “keep an eye on Lavine”

It was interesting to see RJ and OG matched up together. And OG looked stronger and a little bigger. I thought OG is more on the PF side and RJ more on the SG side. And both play the SF position. I remember a discussion on OG for Randle back when Randle was a hot trading topic. Of course those discussions are gone based on his play.

But I don’t see this FO trading either guy now unless we get an all star in return.

OG is a SF with good range. Very thick kid no doubt. RJ is 22 and for his age he is looking more like Randle in his build. Saw them both up close and RJ is nearly as tall and his shoulders are getting bigger.
Not saying he is PF, but one day he could hold it down. My point is both are SF's. RJ is a wing that can play SG, but he is trending biggger.
Look at RJ and Say, Jerimi Grant.
OG can opt out of his 18mil per deal after next year. Either Ujiri works out a deal when he does or risk he walks. He gets some leverage here. While its not a "no trade clause", he can say where he will or not resign/extend (has to opt out, and its tampering if worked out prior? Think of Harden this past year)
DM had 4 years left on his deal. Its why Danny got good value for him. Once he got Rudy moved, it was a natural progression. He could have rebuilt with DM as well or moved him later.

I don't see a trade were Raptors don't take RJ. now if Grimes is highly coveted and say you move hm with two picks (one of ours, one of another) then you are solid. Fans of Grimes might not agree and they might have a good point. Is Grimes the second coming of H20 or Klay Thompson? Don't matter what I or anyone here things or wishes. It's the reality of scouting that will determine a trade value and time with hindsight to know for sure. Does IQ fit here in this scenario? Personally I can't place a value on him or Topping with any accuracy on than fandom wishful thinking. I like our guys. I'll roll with them until otherwise noted.
Im not buying into the RJ canadian thing. There are 22 canadians in the NBA. SGA is perhaps the best for now. If Toronto wants a "coming home" thing they can swing something with OKC for him. Not sure gate and ratings are the issue for Raptors. Neither of them are the second coming of Gretzky.

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:My thing with RJ is he is three years younger than OG. Fans want what is.
OG is a very good player on both sides of the ball. He has a player option after next year which he will likely command a higher price.
RJ has a higher ceiling. But it will take 3 years to find out. Fans want it now.
RJ was a better defender prior to this year. Remember? He also was not buried on defense.
We can argue the what ifs. Is OG a tier one player? Not really. more efficient than RJ? Not much?
Issue is where is RJ in three years? At 25, is OG hit his ceiling? I’ll assume still room to improve some.

I’m not understanding your RJ reference in this thread. Are you saying it’s RJ or OG? Because I look at these moves for lavine or OG to play with RJ. It’s a pipe dream and probably will not happen if Toronto is asking for the farm. But if the FO can pull off a trade, I’m looking at these new players will play with RJ.

If the question is would I trade RJ for OG? That’s a different thread topic than “keep an eye on Lavine”

It was interesting to see RJ and OG matched up together. And OG looked stronger and a little bigger. I thought OG is more on the PF side and RJ more on the SG side. And both play the SF position. I remember a discussion on OG for Randle back when Randle was a hot trading topic. Of course those discussions are gone based on his play.

But I don’t see this FO trading either guy now unless we get an all star in return.

OG is a SF with good range. Very thick kid no doubt. RJ is 22 and for his age he is looking more like Randle in his build. Saw them both up close and RJ is nearly as tall and his shoulders are getting bigger.
Not saying he is PF, but one day he could hold it down. My point is both are SF's. RJ is a wing that can play SG, but he is trending biggger.
Look at RJ and Say, Jerimi Grant.
OG can opt out of his 18mil per deal after next year. Either Ujiri works out a deal when he does or risk he walks. He gets some leverage here. While its not a "no trade clause", he can say where he will or not resign/extend (has to opt out, and its tampering if worked out prior? Think of Harden this past year)
DM had 4 years left on his deal. Its why Danny got good value for him. Once he got Rudy moved, it was a natural progression. He could have rebuilt with DM as well or moved him later.

I don't see a trade were Raptors don't take RJ. now if Grimes is highly coveted and say you move hm with two picks (one of ours, one of another) then you are solid. Fans of Grimes might not agree and they might have a good point. Is Grimes the second coming of H20 or Klay Thompson? Don't matter what I or anyone here things or wishes. It's the reality of scouting that will determine a trade value and time with hindsight to know for sure. Does IQ fit here in this scenario? Personally I can't place a value on him or Topping with any accuracy on than fandom wishful thinking. I like our guys. I'll roll with them until otherwise noted.
Im not buying into the RJ canadian thing. There are 22 canadians in the NBA. SGA is perhaps the best for now. If Toronto wants a "coming home" thing they can swing something with OKC for him. Not sure gate and ratings are the issue for Raptors. Neither of them are the second coming of Gretzky.

What about Zach lavine? You trading for him?

To me I agree I think, if I understand your post reply. Swapping RJ for OG may not move the needle much if RJ is projected to be or already is a similar impact player to OG. I think it’s a marginal upgrade. And for the price it’s not worth the return.

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:My thing with RJ is he is three years younger than OG. Fans want what is.
OG is a very good player on both sides of the ball. He has a player option after next year which he will likely command a higher price.
RJ has a higher ceiling. But it will take 3 years to find out. Fans want it now.
RJ was a better defender prior to this year. Remember? He also was not buried on defense.
We can argue the what ifs. Is OG a tier one player? Not really. more efficient than RJ? Not much?
Issue is where is RJ in three years? At 25, is OG hit his ceiling? I’ll assume still room to improve some.

I’m not understanding your RJ reference in this thread. Are you saying it’s RJ or OG? Because I look at these moves for lavine or OG to play with RJ. It’s a pipe dream and probably will not happen if Toronto is asking for the farm. But if the FO can pull off a trade, I’m looking at these new players will play with RJ.

If the question is would I trade RJ for OG? That’s a different thread topic than “keep an eye on Lavine”

It was interesting to see RJ and OG matched up together. And OG looked stronger and a little bigger. I thought OG is more on the PF side and RJ more on the SG side. And both play the SF position. I remember a discussion on OG for Randle back when Randle was a hot trading topic. Of course those discussions are gone based on his play.

But I don’t see this FO trading either guy now unless we get an all star in return.

OG is a SF with good range. Very thick kid no doubt. RJ is 22 and for his age he is looking more like Randle in his build. Saw them both up close and RJ is nearly as tall and his shoulders are getting bigger.
Not saying he is PF, but one day he could hold it down. My point is both are SF's. RJ is a wing that can play SG, but he is trending biggger.
Look at RJ and Say, Jerimi Grant.
OG can opt out of his 18mil per deal after next year. Either Ujiri works out a deal when he does or risk he walks. He gets some leverage here. While its not a "no trade clause", he can say where he will or not resign/extend (has to opt out, and its tampering if worked out prior? Think of Harden this past year)
DM had 4 years left on his deal. Its why Danny got good value for him. Once he got Rudy moved, it was a natural progression. He could have rebuilt with DM as well or moved him later.

I don't see a trade were Raptors don't take RJ. now if Grimes is highly coveted and say you move hm with two picks (one of ours, one of another) then you are solid. Fans of Grimes might not agree and they might have a good point. Is Grimes the second coming of H20 or Klay Thompson? Don't matter what I or anyone here things or wishes. It's the reality of scouting that will determine a trade value and time with hindsight to know for sure. Does IQ fit here in this scenario? Personally I can't place a value on him or Topping with any accuracy on than fandom wishful thinking. I like our guys. I'll roll with them until otherwise noted.
Im not buying into the RJ canadian thing. There are 22 canadians in the NBA. SGA is perhaps the best for now. If Toronto wants a "coming home" thing they can swing something with OKC for him. Not sure gate and ratings are the issue for Raptors. Neither of them are the second coming of Gretzky.

What about Zach lavine? You trading for him?

To me I agree I think, if I understand your post reply. Swapping RJ for OG may not move the needle much if RJ is projected to be or already is a similar impact player to OG. I think it’s a marginal upgrade. And for the price it’s not worth the return.

Im long on record for not being a fan of his contract and his knee. He is a prolific scorer who has not really made anyone better and might detract actually.
Im not really hating on him or ignoring his talent. His contract is nuts. Same for Beal. Money matters.
Jules plays to his contract and might exceed it. These guys are not. Not to say they are useless. He makes 37mil this year and scales up to 48mil by year 5. I'd consider Lavine for:

EF and Rose. Thats it. I'd said "Consider". That knee could determine a lot of it and I can't really know a thing other than what I read. That contract is mutha.

Brunson
Lavine
JR
Randle
Mitch

Lavine move without the ball like Grimes? catch and pass on the move? Play defense? Im not saying Grimes is "better" but the chemistry matters. I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.
Someone bought up Jordan Poole today and how come we can't do that with a player. WE are. Its actually both Grimes and IQ.

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

I agree with Martin.

And I do remember reading your distain for Lavine. I also agree I would do that trade if we only giving up marginal players which isn't happening.

Back to Grimes. The good news about RJ's injury, it provided more opportunities for Grimes to show off his offensive bag. Grimes should be the blueprint for who we add around our big three (JB, Randle, RJ). I used to call players like Grimes. Unselfish, ball mover who can hit open shots and create for others. He really has an entire package of skills, without being a selfish gunner.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

I agree with Martin.

And I do remember reading your distain for Lavine. I also agree I would do that trade if we only giving up marginal players which isn't happening.

Back to Grimes. The good news about RJ's injury, it provided more opportunities for Grimes to show off his offensive bag. Grimes should be the blueprint for who we add around our big three (JB, Randle, RJ). I used to call players like Grimes. Unselfish, ball mover who can hit open shots and create for others. He really has an entire package of skills, without being a selfish gunner.

I don't know if it's even possible, but starting IQ/Grimes/Brunson and having RJ move to bench may be the best for everyone but I don't know if you can do it without upsetting the general balance of team.

It's prob why we are seeing RJ play with bench so much.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

I agree with Martin.

And I do remember reading your distain for Lavine. I also agree I would do that trade if we only giving up marginal players which isn't happening.

Back to Grimes. The good news about RJ's injury, it provided more opportunities for Grimes to show off his offensive bag. Grimes should be the blueprint for who we add around our big three (JB, Randle, RJ). I used to call players like Grimes. Unselfish, ball mover who can hit open shots and create for others. He really has an entire package of skills, without being a selfish gunner.

I don't know if it's even possible, but starting IQ/Grimes/Brunson and having RJ move to bench may be the best for everyone but I don't know if you can do it without upsetting the general balance of team.

It's prob why we are seeing RJ play with bench so much.

My fanboy hat is on RJ is no secret. Not sure you pay a dude 100mil and then bench him. I get it might be good for the present moment, but if this kid is very close to putting it all together then its a big "No".
Young players are inconsistent for many reasons. He has shown flashes and brilliance. One can always find holes to suit any arguement.
Don't get me wrong, Grimes is very much a joy to watch and love what he is doing out there!
Im not itching to make "improvements" and thus not looking to trade any starters.

Lavine's contract looks like a behemoth with his health concerns. His defense is suspect as well. I'm not a buyer.

I'm keeping an eye on Jaylen Brown (FA after 2024), OG Anonunby (Player option after 2024) and Pascal Siakam (FA 2024) and Dejaunte Murray (FA 2024).

Mitch Robinson makes 14mm in 24-25. The other are 25mm 26mm and 27mm for Brunson, Barrett and Randle, respectively.

Assume you can add 1 of the other 4 free agents and add them to Brunson, Barrett, Randle and Robinson or you can play a game with these guys and create some additional cap room. I mean, with a target cap of 148mm and a luxury tax at 171mm and 90mm is committed salary to our big 4, all our draft picks and what not, I mean, what's the best starting 5 you can create our of these 8 players?

Brunson/Brown/Anonunby/Randle/Robinson?
Murray/Brown/Anonunby/Siakam/Robinson?

Obviously players will take extensions and will make their own decisions, but at this point, you might just look past 2023 offseason to 2024, preserve assets or defer draft picks as possible and in 2025 figure out the team that is strongest 1-5?

In short, who do you get this year other than one of the four guys above that is better than waiting for 2025 and keeping your assets?

EwingsGlass wrote:Booker can't be traded this year and signed an extension at 50mm+ with a 10% trade kicker. I really doubt he is moved anytime soon. What are the Suns getting back for that guy?

Lavine's contract looks like a behemoth with his health concerns. His defense is suspect as well. I'm not a buyer.

I'm keeping an eye on Jaylen Brown (FA after 2024), OG Anonunby (Player option after 2024) and Pascal Siakam (FA 2024) and Dejaunte Murray (FA 2024).

Mitch Robinson makes 14mm in 24-25. The other are 25mm 26mm and 27mm for Brunson, Barrett and Randle, respectively.

Assume you can add 1 of the other 4 free agents and add them to Brunson, Barrett, Randle and Robinson or you can play a game with these guys and create some additional cap room. I mean, with a target cap of 148mm and a luxury tax at 171mm and 90mm is committed salary to our big 4, all our draft picks and what not, I mean, what's the best starting 5 you can create our of these 8 players?

Brunson/Brown/Anonunby/Randle/Robinson?
Murray/Brown/Anonunby/Siakam/Robinson?

Obviously players will take extensions and will make their own decisions, but at this point, you might just look past 2023 offseason to 2024, preserve assets or defer draft picks as possible and in 2025 figure out the team that is strongest 1-5?

In short, who do you get this year other than one of the four guys above that is better than waiting for 2025 and keeping your assets?

I think your whole post is 100% spot on and think the FO has at least one path forward via the 2024 free agents. Great summary.

I’ll add these videos as some underlying data, Marci and Jeremy do a good job of fleshing out the details and upcoming landscape

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

You guys are pathetic. Everyone knows H2O.2 is my favorite player. Get in line!

As for thread topic. Lavine seems like the type of move this FO has done a good job staying away from.
Concern is how Lavine fits with our current roster, salary and, of course, his health risk.
Some rumors have pointed to RJ being included. (RJ,EF,filler, first) While I would agree that RJ is somewhat of an odd fit with JB and Randle, do not see how Lavine wont be as well. Rumor is that Zach is already not happy playing alongside DeRoz. RJ, while not at as same level right now, does make a lot less and is younger. My biggest concern for Lavine is the health risk. Especially for how much of our cap space we would be committing.
I say pass and focus on smaller moves and the upcoming draft. One which we may be able to trade up with our many draft picks. Then wait till 2024 when better FA's will be available.

Fyi, talk of OG is cool but why not wait to see if he opts out? A trade for him right now would probably be as bad as the DM trade. And definitly include RJ.

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:I want to go full fanboy on Grimes but I'll wait.

Don't wait man! Bandwagon is filling up and it's limited room only

I got my captains hat on for this one.

I agree with Martin.

And I do remember reading your distain for Lavine. I also agree I would do that trade if we only giving up marginal players which isn't happening.

Back to Grimes. The good news about RJ's injury, it provided more opportunities for Grimes to show off his offensive bag. Grimes should be the blueprint for who we add around our big three (JB, Randle, RJ). I used to call players like Grimes. Unselfish, ball mover who can hit open shots and create for others. He really has an entire package of skills, without being a selfish gunner.

Got some flack on another discussion regarding my excitement about Grimes getting time without RJ. And my view that Grimes fits better than RJ. RJ has several aspects that may be better than Grimes but I feel he is not a good fit with Randle and JB. Who also need a lot of reps and ball touches. I would not trade RJ for Lavine but feel if there is an upgrade out there for an elite SF who can defend, I would do it. As long as we do not have to include a lot of other assets. MR, Randle, Elite 2 way SF, Grimes, JB would be a well balanced starting five. With IQ keeping his aggressive scoring style in the second unit. Fact is, with JB, RJ and Randle as top three options, Grimes would not be used to his potential. Of course, the other option is that JB, Randle and RJ realize that they need to share the ball more and get Grimes involved to be successful. That would be optimum.