Knicks · RJ vs a better fit at SF (page 1)

Some of the other threads are a bit convoluted on this topic but I think this is going to be a huge discussion point going into the offseason. Knicks need to determine if what they have with Brunson and Randle is sustainable, and if so, are they better off moving RJ for a player who fits better around those players but probably doesn’t have the same upside. Anunoby and Mikal Bridges are the obvious names, guys who are better than RJ, better fits too, and will cost RJ plus picks, but offer much less upside than RJ. Both are mostly finished products. They can both improve of course, but are not going to change significantly as players. RJ may not, but at age 22, he can become a very different player over the next 3-4 years before we know exactly what he is. So moving RJ and picks in a deal for a non-star but high level role player means we are sure Brunson and Randle can carry an offense night in and night out and get their 50+ combined on average. Not having RJ also means not having that player who can pick up the slack on offense when he’s in rhythm and either Brunson or Randle are out. Best example is when he lit up Miami when Brunson was out recently. Mikal bridges is great at what he does but doesn’t have that capability. Anunoby, bridges or maybe LaVine are the only players who may force the front office to make a decision to move off of RJ (as far as direct replacement) , although there are lower end options like Gary Trent Jr who provide the better fit without the same cost. But again, for the front office it comes down to fit vs RJ’s still very real upside as a prospect and I’m curious what the outcome will be.

Knixkik wrote:Some of the other threads are a bit convoluted on this topic but I think this is going to be a huge discussion point going into the offseason. Knicks need to determine if what they have with Brunson and Randle is sustainable, and if so, are they better off moving RJ for a player who fits better around those players but probably doesn’t have the same upside. Anunoby and Mikal Bridges are the obvious names, guys who are better than RJ, better fits too, and will cost RJ plus picks, but offer much less upside than RJ. Both are mostly finished products. They can both improve of course, but are not going to change significantly as players. RJ may not, but at age 22, he can become a very different player over the next 3-4 years before we know exactly what he is. So moving RJ and picks in a deal for a non-star but high level role player means we are sure Brunson and Randle can carry an offense night in and night out and get their 50+ combined on average. Not having RJ also means not having that player who can pick up the slack on offense when he’s in rhythm and either Brunson or Randle are out. Best example is when he lit up Miami when Brunson was out recently. Mikal bridges is great at what he does but doesn’t have that capability. Anunoby, bridges or maybe LaVine are the only players who may force the front office to make a decision to move off of RJ (as far as direct replacement) , although there are lower end options like Gary Trent Jr who provide the better fit without the same cost. But again, for the front office it comes down to fit vs RJ’s still very real upside as a prospect and I’m curious what the outcome will be.

Bridges is likely a utter non-starter, particularly if here is interest out there in him besides the Knicks.

Just can't imagine a world in which the Knicks offer is so superior to another offer OR keeping Bridges the Nets make that move.

Knickoftime wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Some of the other threads are a bit convoluted on this topic but I think this is going to be a huge discussion point going into the offseason. Knicks need to determine if what they have with Brunson and Randle is sustainable, and if so, are they better off moving RJ for a player who fits better around those players but probably doesn’t have the same upside. Anunoby and Mikal Bridges are the obvious names, guys who are better than RJ, better fits too, and will cost RJ plus picks, but offer much less upside than RJ. Both are mostly finished products. They can both improve of course, but are not going to change significantly as players. RJ may not, but at age 22, he can become a very different player over the next 3-4 years before we know exactly what he is. So moving RJ and picks in a deal for a non-star but high level role player means we are sure Brunson and Randle can carry an offense night in and night out and get their 50+ combined on average. Not having RJ also means not having that player who can pick up the slack on offense when he’s in rhythm and either Brunson or Randle are out. Best example is when he lit up Miami when Brunson was out recently. Mikal bridges is great at what he does but doesn’t have that capability. Anunoby, bridges or maybe LaVine are the only players who may force the front office to make a decision to move off of RJ (as far as direct replacement) , although there are lower end options like Gary Trent Jr who provide the better fit without the same cost. But again, for the front office it comes down to fit vs RJ’s still very real upside as a prospect and I’m curious what the outcome will be.

Bridges is likely a utter non-starter, particularly if here is interest out there in him besides the Knicks.

Just can't imagine a world in which the Knicks offer is so superior to another offer OR keeping Bridges the Nets make that move.

Agreed about bridges. And it’s probably better off because his cost will be so much higher than his value. OG is interesting because they want a good young player and picks and RJ is from there, so it might be a match there. But Knicks have to worry about OG’s contract status and the original issue of whether or not his fit outweighs the cost, which will leave the Knicks drained on assets.

Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Rookie wrote:Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Nah uh.

Johnson turned down a $17m per four year extension.

AND you can't combine a player and a trade exception.

Wonder if the Knicks would view jeremi grant as an upgrade over RJ due to his better defense and 3pt shooting ? Portland wants to resign him but doesn’t really seem to have much direction right now and may want to recoup assets in a sign and trade.

Knickoftime wrote:

Rookie wrote:Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Nah uh.

Johnson turned down a $17m per four year extension.

AND you can't combine a player and a trade exception.

This isn’t very clear

Per the NBA, trade exceptions are created when a team sends out salary in a trade without taking any back. The exception can then be used to trade for a player, or multiple players, with salaries up to the amount of the exception without adding to the team's cap and luxury-tax liabilities.

Team ownership and the direction of the team was also a factor but 17M sounds about right. As an RFA he will find out what his value is. We have other pieces of the Nets want assets.

Rookie wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Rookie wrote:Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Nah uh.

Johnson turned down a $17m per four year extension.

AND you can't combine a player and a trade exception.

This isn’t very clear

Per the NBA, trade exceptions are created when a team sends out salary in a trade without taking any back. The exception can then be used to trade for a player, or multiple players, with salaries up to the amount of the exception without adding to the team's cap and luxury-tax liabilities.

Team ownership and the direction of the team was also a factor but 17M sounds about right. As an RFA he will find out what his value is. We have other pieces of the Nets want assets.

Knicks don’t have any trade exceptions right now and you can’t combine them with a player. You trade 1 or more players into a trade exception.

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Rookie wrote:Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Nah uh.

Johnson turned down a $17m per four year extension.

AND you can't combine a player and a trade exception.

This isn’t very clear

Per the NBA, trade exceptions are created when a team sends out salary in a trade without taking any back. The exception can then be used to trade for a player, or multiple players, with salaries up to the amount of the exception without adding to the team's cap and luxury-tax liabilities.

Team ownership and the direction of the team was also a factor but 17M sounds about right. As an RFA he will find out what his value is. We have other pieces of the Nets want assets.

Knicks don’t have any trade exceptions right now and you can’t combine them with a player. You trade 1 or more players into a trade exception.

What Martin said...the player you use a TPE for has to fit into the TPE. You can't trade an $8m player and a $7m TPE for a $15m player.

That said, so they?

Nets are flush with wings, which is a reason not to keep Johnson.

So Toppin and...?

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Rookie wrote:Cameron Johnson could be a lower cost option as an RFA and plays both wing and forwar. You wouldn’t have to give up RJ to get him. Obi our trade exception for the Hart trade and a protected pick could get it done.

If Toronto doesn’t do an extension with Anunoby he will be a FA after next season. All we’ll need is cap room or a sign and trade. That might be the time to move RJ. Trading RJ now seems premature unless you think his value around the league will go down

Nah uh.

Johnson turned down a $17m per four year extension.

AND you can't combine a player and a trade exception.

This isn’t very clear

Per the NBA, trade exceptions are created when a team sends out salary in a trade without taking any back. The exception can then be used to trade for a player, or multiple players, with salaries up to the amount of the exception without adding to the team's cap and luxury-tax liabilities.

Team ownership and the direction of the team was also a factor but 17M sounds about right. As an RFA he will find out what his value is. We have other pieces of the Nets want assets.

Knicks don’t have any trade exceptions right now and you can’t combine them with a player. You trade 1 or more players into a trade exception.

Ok thanks, good to know. I thought I read we created a 7M TPE in the Hart trade. Must have been bad info.

When Mitch returns does he help RJ on both ends ?

Alpha1971 wrote:When Mitch returns does he help RJ on both ends ?

You're thinking some of those hairballs turn into alley oops? Joking aside, Mitch helps everyone. Defensive mistakes become less glaring, misses become offensive rebounds, opposing centers have less room to move etc. I think RJ could also help himself by looking for Mitch on dumpoffs. RJ can get to rim. He needs to do a better job of recognizing when to shoot and when to pass.

I'm rolling with the Brunson IQ Hart Randle and Hartenstein train until the last stop. RJ can start and do his thing when Randle and Brunson rest but that group has looked really well since the trade. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Over the break hope Barrett is resting but working on his cardio and not lifting weights. During the offseason he needs to work on cardio, three point shooting, and defensive drills.

RJ Barret has been very inconsistent but has followed a patern of improving his play dramatically after the All-Star Break. He is also improving year over year.

A big knock on him initially was free-throws as he was horrible.
He worked on that and is now respectable from the line.
Although this is probably a career low-point for RJ when comparing actual output to expectations, I believe he is absolutely primed for a massive end of year run.

RJ Barret after All-Star Break:

• 2020 - 14.3 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 3.3 assists per game while shooting 37.5% from the field, 30.0% from 3-point range, and 55.6% from the free-throw line.
• 2021 - 17.6 points, 5.8 rebounds, and 3.0 assists per game while shooting 45.4% from the field, 38.2% from 3-point range, and 77.2% from the free-throw line.
• 2022 - 24.5 points, 6.2 rebounds and 3.8 assists
• 2023 - ???

This year he has more competition for his minutes than ever before.
This is a pressure-cooker scenario where we will get to quickly see what Barret is made of in short period of time.
I think he will come back strong and probably frustrate fans who will wonder where that player was the first 3 quarters of the season.
The competition should lead to a more consistent RJ Barret going forward, creating the complete player fans have been waiting for.
I hate to think of the alternative scenario, but either way we will know the player we have by the end of the season.

Like to think RJ will max out his potential with us and be a high level player for many years. He needs to consistently hit his 3 pointer and play well defensively. Be a 3 and D wing with his abality to post, penetrate, and rebound. Has to be less selfish. Yet, if Randle can improve from last year then RJ surely can. He needs to play more in the flow of the offense. Key to improving RJ is running plays for Grimes so the floor is spread more

Mikal really shut me up about not being able to take over a game on offense. But it would be so nice to have all of the Villanova guys together. Bridges would be such a perfect fit at SF alongside Brunson and Randle. I have to wonder what the Knicks would give up, but it’s really impossible to get him because BK is going to demand minimum 3 unprotected firsts among other things. The asking price will essentially be what the Knicks were unwilling to give for Mitchell.

Knixkik wrote:Mikal really shut me up about not being able to take over a game on offense. But it would be so nice to have all of the Villanova guys together. Bridges would be such a perfect fit at SF alongside Brunson and Randle. I have to wonder what the Knicks would give up, but it’s really impossible to get him because BK is going to demand minimum 3 unprotected firsts among other things. The asking price will essentially be what the Knicks were unwilling to give for Mitchell.

Knicks are now a good team so we can give up our picks non protected and we use those protected picks for our own use. Plus as we have seen team is happy to go without any picks some years. We will be a great team with Bridges and our core. Would they take our picks with Obi and filler. Or RJ and a first straight up.

Alpha1971 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Mikal really shut me up about not being able to take over a game on offense. But it would be so nice to have all of the Villanova guys together. Bridges would be such a perfect fit at SF alongside Brunson and Randle. I have to wonder what the Knicks would give up, but it’s really impossible to get him because BK is going to demand minimum 3 unprotected firsts among other things. The asking price will essentially be what the Knicks were unwilling to give for Mitchell.

Knicks are now a good team so we can give up our picks non protected and we use those protected picks for our own use. Plus as we have seen team is happy to go without any picks some years. We will be a great team with Bridges and our core. Would they take our picks with Obi and filler. Or RJ and a first straight up.

I don’t see them taking either package you suggested. That’s the issue. Nets have no reason to trade Bridges because he’s under a long term contract and they can’t tank because they have no control over their future picks. Bridges just got there so he won’t request a trade for any reason. A deal would have to be too good to pass up for the nets, and we know they already turned down 4 first round picks from another team. Seems like this isn’t an attainable option right now.

I think it would be worth taking a look at RJ at the 2 again, and maybe 4 in a small ball line up.

I feel like his D this year has slipped- the per 100 shows that.

He is young. And I agree, keeping him may offer us the best upside, especially if RJ can work hard on his 3pt shot and continue to get better on his drives.

There are flashes for sure that he can be a solid player, maybe not to expectations of the third pick in the draft, but better than Zion because he is durable and that counts.

As a fan we often react and suggest to that reaction.
But the root cause of a players regress is rarely discussed.

Really, all we know is Randle was struggled last year and Knicks “coached him better”. Results are obvious.
This year we have RJ as our pet project/Peeve. WE can talk all about other players and trading or signing them but what is the cause of RJ’s struggle of late? Mental? Lacerated finger might be the obvious turning point.
Reality is tweeter can magnify a few bad games and a few awful possessions and we parrot that into a season or career long issue.
We can pull stats to make him look worse, or better. Then media click baiting starts and we run it over and over again.

but this is how it works now.