Knicks · Who is more likely gone is a superstar becomes available- RJ or Julius? (page 1)

Wheres the heads of the Knicks front office at now? They value Randle's toughness and production. RJ had an up and down season but was consistently good in the playoffs.ian Begley and Macri pointed out in macri's show that RJ and Julius have played for four years and their numbers together is not that good, they don't bring out the best in each other. After bringing in jalen, they said that you can see that RJ was able to adopt to being religated to the 3rd option well specially in the playoffs. There might be a concern if a superstar/ ball dominant player comes to the knicks via trade and he shares the ball with Randle, the outcome might not be as good as most knicks fans would hope for. Randle struggles with sharing the ball. Maybe a combination of Jalen, Rj and the Superstar will be a better fit than a team with Randle and the superstar.

The more likely senario would be the team will show patience once more, a team with jalen, Randle and say Embid or PG13 might not look as fluid as most knicks fans would hope for.

Jimbo5 wrote:Wheres the heads of the Knicks front office at now? They value Randle's toughness and production. RJ had an up and down season but was consistently good in the playoffs.ian Begley and Macri pointed out in macri's show that RJ and Julius have played for four years and their numbers together is not that good, they don't bring out the best in each other. After bringing in jalen, they said that you can see that RJ was able to adopt to being religated to the 3rd option well specially in the playoffs. There might be a concern if a superstar/ ball dominant player comes to the knicks via trade and he shares the ball with Randle, the outcome might not be as good as most knicks fans would hope for. Randle struggles with sharing the ball. Maybe a combination of Jalen, Rj and the Superstar will be a better fit than a team with Randle and the superstar.

The more likely senario would be the team will show patience once more, a team with jalen, Randle and say Embid or PG13 might not look as fluid as most knicks fans would hope for.

If KAT is a topic, it makes sense from Minny’s standpoint to trade for Randle. Randle on a great contract might make the trade more even that thought. KAT played few games last year.
If Kat and RJ play well together that has to be considered. What brings RJ to the next level?
Im not advocating for KAT BTW, just an example.
ANy deal has to consider the other teams needs.
For example what would suns want/need if Ayton is traded? Mitch as a starter. They need depth. EF/cap fodder off the bench is not awful. CP3 breaks. Bring in IQ for year off the bench and groom for next year.

Ayton brings a whole dynamic we have not seen before. Two man game down low? Midrange shot. This creates a different look for the other three. Need more defense from Randle, and RJ needs to hit his shots…..
But, does this make things easier for them? Maybe.

OG for RJ. I get the attraction and the simple notion that OG is a better defender than RJ, and better outside shooter for the moment. Im not certain there is enough to warrant this. Many will disagree. I get that too.

Siakim for Randle. Good contract for Toronto. Different type player for us. Does his game make life easier for JB and RJ? Siakim is unrestricted after next season. Makes 37mil upcoming. He is 29.

Is this the video?

RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

martin wrote:Is this the video?

Yup, that one. They touched on this topic towards the end.

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

Well said.

Jimbo5 wrote:

martin wrote:Is this the video?

Yup, that one. They touched on this topic towards the end.

Thanks, going to listen now!

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

That is a good point and consideration. But if he is flawed and inhibits others the stagnation worth it?
I know you’ll tilt away from RJ but im open to moves that enhance and make easier shots.
Getting from 37 to 47 wins is the easy part. Getting to 55 is the tough part.
I doubt Randle is All NBA going forward as its now postionless and more guards are deserving.
We know what we have in Randle.
I agree he and Rj are not good together. Randle was a FA so we win any trade with him.
Team has to improve is the final verdict, not who wins the trade on paper.
Interesting times!!!!

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

That is a good point and consideration. But if he is flawed and inhibits others the stagnation worth it?
I know you’ll tilt away from RJ but im open to moves that enhance and make easier shots.
Getting from 37 to 47 wins is the easy part. Getting to 55 is the tough part.
I doubt Randle is All NBA going forward as its now postionless and more guards are deserving.
We know what we have in Randle.
I agree he and Rj are not good together. Randle was a FA so we win any trade with him.
Team has to improve is the final verdict, not who wins the trade on paper.
Interesting times!!!!

For me it is hard to wade through podcasts for info that is well thought out - just dont have the time - but some of the stats and view point of their last series was in the very least, eye catching.

I'd start at the 44 minute mark on part 2 and then follow through the Randle and RJ shooting takes in part 3. At least thought provoking.

The RJ shooting stat are eye piercing, even for a non-RJ believer.

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

I think in the eyes of the FO, a good return value for Randle is a superstar that can duplicate or surpass Randle's numbers. Not sure if any of these desirable superstars will be available in the summer. I think based on the video if i read it correctly, the FO will consider trading randle for these types of players. I think if a true superstar becomes available and the main piece of the trade is RJ, that might not be enough causing the FO to dig deep in the teams resources(young talent and picks) leaving the roster thin.

With Randles value high, if the FO trades him for a superstar, there is a chance there might still be enough young players to be good and competitive.

But will the FO do that? Leon has shown tremendous loyalty and faith in Randle, its hard to see them trading him. I hope im wrong

Jimbo5 wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

I think in the eyes of the FO, a good return value for Randle is a superstar that can duplicate or surpass Randle's numbers. Not sure if any of these desirable superstars will be available in the summer. I think based on the video if i read it correctly, the FO will consider trading randle for these types of players. I think if a true superstar becomes available and the main piece of the trade is RJ, that might not be enough causing the FO to dig deep in the teams resources(young talent and picks) leaving the roster thin.

With Randles value high, if the FO trades him for a superstar, there is a chance there might still be enough young players to be good and competitive.

But will the FO do that? Leon has shown tremendous loyalty and faith in Randle, its hard to see them trading him. I hope im wrong

I've heard the "loyalty to Randle" point a number of times and it doesn't make sense to me. I think there is some level of loyalty any FO has to any player on the team and you may have gotten it right previously - it's hard and has been hard to put Randle in a tradable position over the last 3 years. You don't really trade him 3 years ago after he went completely bonkers (even with the Atlanta series letdown) and it's even harder to trade him after this turd he laid out 2 seasons ago.

I think the FO is smart enough to understand whether or not Randle can fit within a deep playoff team. They will be loyal to him - as well they should - right up until the minute they trade him. Same with RJ or any other player on roster.

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

Well said.

RJ is also an easier upgrade to make from a positional stand point. Julius, at his highest highs, is arguably top 5 at his position. I don't think it's the case, but you can make a decent argument. If you made a simple swap like Kevin Huerter for RJ, could you say the we'd be improved for the short-term? Take youth and upside out of the equation and you could see a number of swaps that improve the club. Personally, I think RJ showed enough in the playoffs for me to see how much he can continue to grow here next season.

Jimbo5 wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

I think in the eyes of the FO, a good return value for Randle is a superstar that can duplicate or surpass Randle's numbers. Not sure if any of these desirable superstars will be available in the summer. I think based on the video if i read it correctly, the FO will consider trading randle for these types of players. I think if a true superstar becomes available and the main piece of the trade is RJ, that might not be enough causing the FO to dig deep in the teams resources(young talent and picks) leaving the roster thin.

With Randles value high, if the FO trades him for a superstar, there is a chance there might still be enough young players to be good and competitive.

But will the FO do that? Leon has shown tremendous loyalty and faith in Randle, its hard to see them trading him. I hope im wrong

dude Randle's a 25/10/4 all star. Who we getting back that improves on that? Joel, Joker, Jiannis, Jah, Jalen... ?

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

As long as we don't count on him to be a closer.

I could see RJ and IQ in a deal for Jaylen Brown. Maybe some picks as well. Seems like a fair deal. Two 20ppg capable scorers for one, and picks.

I understand the reluctance to trade Randle for anyone but a game changer. But that's not the only path to getting a star. If Randle was involved in a trade that added depth. The next deal could be for a star. We have the picks, some good young players to offer. As well as Fournier's expiring contract.

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

As long as we don't count on him to be a closer.

I could see RJ and IQ in a deal for Jaylen Brown. Maybe some picks as well. Seems like a fair deal. Two 20ppg capable scorers for one, and picks.

I understand the reluctance to trade Randle for anyone but a game changer. But that's not the only path to getting a star. If Randle was involved in a trade that added depth. The next deal could be for a star. We have the picks, some good young players to offer. As well as Fournier's expiring contract.

Feel like Boston would not have the same opinion on that.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

Well said.

RJ is also an easier upgrade to make from a positional stand point. Julius, at his highest highs, is arguably top 5 at his position. I don't think it's the case, but you can make a decent argument. If you made a simple swap like Kevin Huerter for RJ, could you say the we'd be improved for the short-term? Take youth and upside out of the equation and you could see a number of swaps that improve the club. Personally, I think RJ showed enough in the playoffs for me to see how much he can continue to grow here next season.

I am all for running it back RJ included.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

As long as we don't count on him to be a closer.

I could see RJ and IQ in a deal for Jaylen Brown. Maybe some picks as well. Seems like a fair deal. Two 20ppg capable scorers for one, and picks.

I understand the reluctance to trade Randle for anyone but a game changer. But that's not the only path to getting a star. If Randle was involved in a trade that added depth. The next deal could be for a star. We have the picks, some good young players to offer. As well as Fournier's expiring contract.

Feel like Boston would not have the same opinion on that.

Maybe if Boston only paid attention to the games RJ and IQ played against them.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

As long as we don't count on him to be a closer.

I could see RJ and IQ in a deal for Jaylen Brown. Maybe some picks as well. Seems like a fair deal. Two 20ppg capable scorers for one, and picks.

I understand the reluctance to trade Randle for anyone but a game changer. But that's not the only path to getting a star. If Randle was involved in a trade that added depth. The next deal could be for a star. We have the picks, some good young players to offer. As well as Fournier's expiring contract.

Feel like Boston would not have the same opinion on that.

Maybe if Boston only paid attention to the games RJ and IQ played against them.

Then they definitely would demand Fournier as a cap filler too

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

As long as we don't count on him to be a closer.

I could see RJ and IQ in a deal for Jaylen Brown. Maybe some picks as well. Seems like a fair deal. Two 20ppg capable scorers for one, and picks.

I understand the reluctance to trade Randle for anyone but a game changer. But that's not the only path to getting a star. If Randle was involved in a trade that added depth. The next deal could be for a star. We have the picks, some good young players to offer. As well as Fournier's expiring contract.

Feel like Boston would not have the same opinion on that.

Maybe if Boston only paid attention to the games RJ and IQ played against them.

They're three years younger, and both took a big step this season. IQ in the regular season, RJ in the playoffs. Throw in some first round picks, that's depth now, and going forward.

"Trade Randle" has gotten a little more subtle.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:RJ'S age and cap friendly deal make him the piece that will be moved.

What people cant grasp about Randle is there's no way we get value back from him vs. what we get FROM him. He's a flawed player but this squad is not limited to what Randle can or cant do.

That is a good point and consideration. But if he is flawed and inhibits others the stagnation worth it?
I know you’ll tilt away from RJ but im open to moves that enhance and make easier shots.
Getting from 37 to 47 wins is the easy part. Getting to 55 is the tough part.
I doubt Randle is All NBA going forward as its now postionless and more guards are deserving.
We know what we have in Randle.
I agree he and Rj are not good together. Randle was a FA so we win any trade with him.
Team has to improve is the final verdict, not who wins the trade on paper.
Interesting times!!!!

For me it is hard to wade through podcasts for info that is well thought out - just dont have the time - but some of the stats and view point of their last series was in the very least, eye catching.

I'd start at the 44 minute mark on part 2 and then follow through the Randle and RJ shooting takes in part 3. At least thought provoking.

The RJ shooting stat are eye piercing, even for a non-RJ believer.

Thank you, Martin! I like you find it tough to commit the time to wade through these so appreciate your pinpointing the time frames. But, man, wow! I'm scratching my head how we did so well when 2 out of our top 3 are so inefficient. Certainly looks like there is room for improvement, especially since neither is a shut down defender.

the one thing i didn't see in the analysis and not sure if this changes this is having those numbers normalized to context, e.g., those tough defensive battles are going to hurt numbers.

all that said i kind of agree with Fishmike and some others. Jules is like a top 5 PF . there is no way he is traded unless someone comes in with a whopper of an offer and because of his flaws it's tough to imagine some team having such a love affair to do that

our top 3 guys do best with the ball in their hand and that's too many. RJ is the natural candidate to move to get someone who is a reliable shooter. Besides he'll be 23 soon so...