Knicks · The Two star approach vs. the 3 starphuch…. (page 3)
nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:Its been reiterated that he don't want NY and if Scott Perry speaks for what our outlook is by not having disgruntled dudes here we will pass.
I don't know if he is or not but that contract is bear to have and seems like Leon/Rosas/Aller got this.
We are respectable and while the next jump is the hardest its not likely on the whims of past performance.
Lavine is a fine player and has done well the last 5 years. Its the remainder of his contract going forward Im worried about.I'm not worried about it either. Lavine don't fit. I understand there are some players you bring in regardless based on their talent, but Lavine ain't one of them. I think the Magic, Sixers, Heat and Pacers (Not sure how they're feeling about Mathurin these days) are the best fits. And to be fair to Lavine, he hasn't historically been a "disgruntled" star. The Bulls are a dumpster fire and I'm sure most of that team would say they8 like to leave if you did an informal poll.
Hope Sixers take Lavine. That would be wonderful.
PHI would be the favorites if they got Lavine.
He'd put a 40 spot on our heads in round 2 or somewhere along the line.
Lavine makes sense given they are "win now".
How we get there in the next season or two eludes my creativity.
Im enjoying the fact we can turn on any game and know we can match up well on most nights.
Reading Perry's "disgruntled" caution this past week is logical and perhaps he speaks for knicks even if its conceptual?
Its not that all stars ask out or are disgruntled. Minny financials and current team might make sense to not so much exile KAT but bring in Randle for what he does on the court and his contract. Randle and Evan for KAT. We still have to take back money but its logical at some level.
Question is does KAT fuck up our financial's and prohibit us from getting to that next level.
Lavine is a hell of a player but what they want in return likely won't make sense for us. He is better than Barret now but full 5 years older on a big contract. Very big.
If possible I'd rather see OG with Barret on the wings as his defense next to Brunson seems like a benefit.
Bring in the Greek and I'm all in 
Nalod wrote:Philly's resilience to keep Embiid happy for now and develop Maxy is impressive. They have a deep roster now and picks to spend.
Lavine makes sense given they are "win now".
How we get there in the next season or two eludes my creativity.
Im enjoying the fact we can turn on any game and know we can match up well on most nights.
Reading Perry's "disgruntled" caution this past week is logical and perhaps he speaks for knicks even if its conceptual?
Its not that all stars ask out or are disgruntled. Minny financials and current team might make sense to not so much exile KAT but bring in Randle for what he does on the court and his contract. Randle and Evan for KAT. We still have to take back money but its logical at some level.
Question is does KAT fuck up our financial's and prohibit us from getting to that next level.
Lavine is a hell of a player but what they want in return likely won't make sense for us. He is better than Barret now but full 5 years older on a big contract. Very big.
If possible I'd rather see OG with Barret on the wings as his defense next to Brunson seems like a benefit.
OG type two way wing player is the type of moves that would make a huge impact on this team. But we are in good shape right now. Perfect place to be where we can make logical moves without being forced to trade just to trade. And glad we don’t have that type of FO.
I agree with everything else u said.
blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:Philly's resilience to keep Embiid happy for now and develop Maxy is impressive. They have a deep roster now and picks to spend.
Lavine makes sense given they are "win now".
How we get there in the next season or two eludes my creativity.
Im enjoying the fact we can turn on any game and know we can match up well on most nights.
Reading Perry's "disgruntled" caution this past week is logical and perhaps he speaks for knicks even if its conceptual?
Its not that all stars ask out or are disgruntled. Minny financials and current team might make sense to not so much exile KAT but bring in Randle for what he does on the court and his contract. Randle and Evan for KAT. We still have to take back money but its logical at some level.
Question is does KAT fuck up our financial's and prohibit us from getting to that next level.
Lavine is a hell of a player but what they want in return likely won't make sense for us. He is better than Barret now but full 5 years older on a big contract. Very big.
If possible I'd rather see OG with Barret on the wings as his defense next to Brunson seems like a benefit.OG type two way wing player is the type of moves that would make a huge impact on this team. But we are in good shape right now. Perfect place to be where we can make logical moves without being forced to trade just to trade. And glad we don’t have that type of FO.
I agree with everything else u said.
OG always seems to be hurt though and is due a big raise. I'm not sure he's a huge upgrade over Grimes, and i'm not even sure Grimes won't be better in a year or two.
But it would be something to consider.
Lavine - 274
OG - 235
Mitchell - 267
Booker - 261
KAT - 199
KP - 226
Embiid - 247
Lavine had that 1 bad injury 6-7 years ago and has been unfairly labeled as injury prone since. Truth is he's been very durable for a long time now. For reference Randle the iron man over that same time has played 295 games.
nycericanguy wrote:blkexec wrote:Nalod wrote:Philly's resilience to keep Embiid happy for now and develop Maxy is impressive. They have a deep roster now and picks to spend.
Lavine makes sense given they are "win now".
How we get there in the next season or two eludes my creativity.
Im enjoying the fact we can turn on any game and know we can match up well on most nights.
Reading Perry's "disgruntled" caution this past week is logical and perhaps he speaks for knicks even if its conceptual?
Its not that all stars ask out or are disgruntled. Minny financials and current team might make sense to not so much exile KAT but bring in Randle for what he does on the court and his contract. Randle and Evan for KAT. We still have to take back money but its logical at some level.
Question is does KAT fuck up our financial's and prohibit us from getting to that next level.
Lavine is a hell of a player but what they want in return likely won't make sense for us. He is better than Barret now but full 5 years older on a big contract. Very big.
If possible I'd rather see OG with Barret on the wings as his defense next to Brunson seems like a benefit.OG type two way wing player is the type of moves that would make a huge impact on this team. But we are in good shape right now. Perfect place to be where we can make logical moves without being forced to trade just to trade. And glad we don’t have that type of FO.
I agree with everything else u said.
OG always seems to be hurt though and is due a big raise. I'm not sure he's a huge upgrade over Grimes, and i'm not even sure Grimes won't be better in a year or two.
But it would be something to consider.
Looks like OG has had two of his six seasons he missed a fair amount of games. Played 67 games last season.
In the covid era, about two seasons things might have contributed to games missed. Exposure, and perhaps covid itself.
What Toronto wants and what his salary demands might be will factor greatly.
We not there with Grimes either hitting his potential or paying him.
"thinking like the FO"........There is a new era parity upon us which is due to lack of incentivized tanking and salary cap/aprons were taxes really get out of hand.
Good teams have players that need to get paid and keeping them together is not as easy as past years.
Leon/Aller may be ahead of the curve on this. Ibisha and the suns, as well as the Clippers might not be as such.
Im not content, but at the same time i can appreciate the tender nature of Knicks and relationship with fans. We can't afford to screw it up and thus it might be smart to not swing for the fences in short time until fans are happier. Winning makes us happy, second round made us happy. I think we get a few conf. finals in before it gets frustrated. Toronto was on the verge before they pushed the chips in on Kawahi. Philly's process was really a damn mess but they strung out still with many creative deals. And just when you think it implodes, they get Maxy mid draft and he is really good.
At the end of the day its all out of our hands and teams better off not plugging into fans desires. We tend to over react.
nycericanguy wrote:games played last 5 seasonsLavine - 274
OG - 235
Mitchell - 267
Booker - 261
KAT - 199
KP - 226
Embiid - 247Lavine had that 1 bad injury 6-7 years ago and has been unfairly labeled as injury prone since. Truth is he's been very durable for a long time now. For reference Randle the iron man over that same time has played 295 games.
I think my argument is that he isn't "durable" not that you cannot find examples of players that are less durable. But if you look at guys like Mikal Bridges - that "durable". Not that they never get injured, just that they don't miss on average of 20 games a year for those injuries.
Now on that list, each one of them has been criticized for their missed games. I would argue that all of them, with maybe the exception of KP, are far better players at what they do.
But
My point is that Lavine is not durable, not that there are not less durable players. More importantly, he does not win basketball games.
LivingLegend wrote:nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:Its been reiterated that he don't want NY and if Scott Perry speaks for what our outlook is by not having disgruntled dudes here we will pass.
I don't know if he is or not but that contract is bear to have and seems like Leon/Rosas/Aller got this.
We are respectable and while the next jump is the hardest its not likely on the whims of past performance.
Lavine is a fine player and has done well the last 5 years. Its the remainder of his contract going forward Im worried about.I'm not worried about it either. Lavine don't fit. I understand there are some players you bring in regardless based on their talent, but Lavine ain't one of them. I think the Magic, Sixers, Heat and Pacers (Not sure how they're feeling about Mathurin these days) are the best fits. And to be fair to Lavine, he hasn't historically been a "disgruntled" star. The Bulls are a dumpster fire and I'm sure most of that team would say they8 like to leave if you did an informal poll.
Hope Sixers take Lavine. That would be wonderful.
PHI would be the favorites if they got Lavine.
He'd put a 40 spot on our heads in round 2 or somewhere along the line.
I would love for Philly to lock up their cap with Embiid, Maxey, & Lavine combining for $120mil and climbing between 3 players.
newyorknewyork wrote:LivingLegend wrote:nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:Its been reiterated that he don't want NY and if Scott Perry speaks for what our outlook is by not having disgruntled dudes here we will pass.
I don't know if he is or not but that contract is bear to have and seems like Leon/Rosas/Aller got this.
We are respectable and while the next jump is the hardest its not likely on the whims of past performance.
Lavine is a fine player and has done well the last 5 years. Its the remainder of his contract going forward Im worried about.I'm not worried about it either. Lavine don't fit. I understand there are some players you bring in regardless based on their talent, but Lavine ain't one of them. I think the Magic, Sixers, Heat and Pacers (Not sure how they're feeling about Mathurin these days) are the best fits. And to be fair to Lavine, he hasn't historically been a "disgruntled" star. The Bulls are a dumpster fire and I'm sure most of that team would say they8 like to leave if you did an informal poll.
Hope Sixers take Lavine. That would be wonderful.
PHI would be the favorites if they got Lavine.
He'd put a 40 spot on our heads in round 2 or somewhere along the line.
I would love for Philly to lock up their cap with Embiid, Maxey, & Lavine combining for $120mil and climbing between 3 players.
This is where my head is.
EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:games played last 5 seasonsLavine - 274
OG - 235
Mitchell - 267
Booker - 261
KAT - 199
KP - 226
Embiid - 247Lavine had that 1 bad injury 6-7 years ago and has been unfairly labeled as injury prone since. Truth is he's been very durable for a long time now. For reference Randle the iron man over that same time has played 295 games.
I think my argument is that he isn't "durable" not that you cannot find examples of players that are less durable. But if you look at guys like Mikal Bridges - that "durable". Not that they never get injured, just that they don't miss on average of 20 games a year for those injuries.
Now on that list, each one of them has been criticized for their missed games. I would argue that all of them, with maybe the exception of KP, are far better players at what they do.
But
My point is that Lavine is not durable, not that there are not less durable players. More importantly, he does not win basketball games.
Mikal is an outlier, and we'll see how many games he starts missing now that's he's a go to guy.
I also put Randle on that list and he's only played 21 more games than Lavine in 5 years. And Randle is a workhorse.
But my point was not about showing guys that are "less durable", It's to show that anyone we are linked to having interest in has missed games. Stars don't play 82 games anymore.
if you want to say he's not a winning player, that's fair, same was said about Booker and heck even Randle too. but to say Lavine always has injury issues is just not true anymore.
newyorknewyork wrote:LivingLegend wrote:nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:Its been reiterated that he don't want NY and if Scott Perry speaks for what our outlook is by not having disgruntled dudes here we will pass.
I don't know if he is or not but that contract is bear to have and seems like Leon/Rosas/Aller got this.
We are respectable and while the next jump is the hardest its not likely on the whims of past performance.
Lavine is a fine player and has done well the last 5 years. Its the remainder of his contract going forward Im worried about.I'm not worried about it either. Lavine don't fit. I understand there are some players you bring in regardless based on their talent, but Lavine ain't one of them. I think the Magic, Sixers, Heat and Pacers (Not sure how they're feeling about Mathurin these days) are the best fits. And to be fair to Lavine, he hasn't historically been a "disgruntled" star. The Bulls are a dumpster fire and I'm sure most of that team would say they8 like to leave if you did an informal poll.
Hope Sixers take Lavine. That would be wonderful.
PHI would be the favorites if they got Lavine.
He'd put a 40 spot on our heads in round 2 or somewhere along the line.
I would love for Philly to lock up their cap with Embiid, Maxey, & Lavine combining for $120mil and climbing between 3 players.
those 3 for 120m is a steal, this isn't 2005 anymore.
nycericanguy wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:LivingLegend wrote:nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:Its been reiterated that he don't want NY and if Scott Perry speaks for what our outlook is by not having disgruntled dudes here we will pass.
I don't know if he is or not but that contract is bear to have and seems like Leon/Rosas/Aller got this.
We are respectable and while the next jump is the hardest its not likely on the whims of past performance.
Lavine is a fine player and has done well the last 5 years. Its the remainder of his contract going forward Im worried about.I'm not worried about it either. Lavine don't fit. I understand there are some players you bring in regardless based on their talent, but Lavine ain't one of them. I think the Magic, Sixers, Heat and Pacers (Not sure how they're feeling about Mathurin these days) are the best fits. And to be fair to Lavine, he hasn't historically been a "disgruntled" star. The Bulls are a dumpster fire and I'm sure most of that team would say they8 like to leave if you did an informal poll.
Hope Sixers take Lavine. That would be wonderful.
PHI would be the favorites if they got Lavine.
He'd put a 40 spot on our heads in round 2 or somewhere along the line.
I would love for Philly to lock up their cap with Embiid, Maxey, & Lavine combining for $120mil and climbing between 3 players.
those 3 for 120m is a steal, this isn't 2005 anymore.
If they are able to land Lavine without moving Tobias. With Morris, Batum & Roco by the trade deadline. It would be worth a shot for them for this season to capitalize on Embiid's window.
Odds are they would still lose to Boston in a playoff series. But it would be worth the shot.
nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:games played last 5 seasonsLavine - 274
OG - 235
Mitchell - 267
Booker - 261
KAT - 199
KP - 226
Embiid - 247Lavine had that 1 bad injury 6-7 years ago and has been unfairly labeled as injury prone since. Truth is he's been very durable for a long time now. For reference Randle the iron man over that same time has played 295 games.
I think my argument is that he isn't "durable" not that you cannot find examples of players that are less durable. But if you look at guys like Mikal Bridges - that "durable". Not that they never get injured, just that they don't miss on average of 20 games a year for those injuries.
Now on that list, each one of them has been criticized for their missed games. I would argue that all of them, with maybe the exception of KP, are far better players at what they do.
But
My point is that Lavine is not durable, not that there are not less durable players. More importantly, he does not win basketball games.Mikal is an outlier, and we'll see how many games he starts missing now that's he's a go to guy.
I also put Randle on that list and he's only played 21 more games than Lavine in 5 years. And Randle is a workhorse.
It's not about guys being "less durable", It's to show that anyone we are linked to having interest in has missed games. Stars don't play 82 games anymore.
if you want to say he's not a winning player, that's fair, same was said about Booker and heck even Randle too. but to say Lavine always has injury issues is just not true anymore.
Perhaps I am caught on semantics. I know you are only arguing that as a "star" he plays more games than other "stars".
I just wouldn't expect more than 65 games from him any season and I actually don't think he is as good as some of these other players.
So when I compare Embiid vs Lavine, I am more likely to accept risk on Embiid. But when it is all said and done, I don't really want either due to injury concern. Teams that can keep good players on the floor do well. Giving up top picks for guys that can't stay on the floor is a problem.
I see guys like Jokic, Tatum, Bridges who are playing 75+ games a year consistently and that translates to winning. Embiid can't win a chip cause he can't stay on the court. Giannis has been wracked with injuries. It hits in the playoffs and they are out.
I don't see Lavine as the kind of "star" that I am willing to lose picks to put him in our lineup and I don't really see him as an upgrade over what we have. Maybe I am wrong.
EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:games played last 5 seasonsLavine - 274
OG - 235
Mitchell - 267
Booker - 261
KAT - 199
KP - 226
Embiid - 247Lavine had that 1 bad injury 6-7 years ago and has been unfairly labeled as injury prone since. Truth is he's been very durable for a long time now. For reference Randle the iron man over that same time has played 295 games.
I think my argument is that he isn't "durable" not that you cannot find examples of players that are less durable. But if you look at guys like Mikal Bridges - that "durable". Not that they never get injured, just that they don't miss on average of 20 games a year for those injuries.
Now on that list, each one of them has been criticized for their missed games. I would argue that all of them, with maybe the exception of KP, are far better players at what they do.
But
My point is that Lavine is not durable, not that there are not less durable players. More importantly, he does not win basketball games.Mikal is an outlier, and we'll see how many games he starts missing now that's he's a go to guy.
I also put Randle on that list and he's only played 21 more games than Lavine in 5 years. And Randle is a workhorse.
It's not about guys being "less durable", It's to show that anyone we are linked to having interest in has missed games. Stars don't play 82 games anymore.
if you want to say he's not a winning player, that's fair, same was said about Booker and heck even Randle too. but to say Lavine always has injury issues is just not true anymore.
Perhaps I am caught on semantics. I know you are only arguing that as a "star" he plays more games than other "stars".
I just wouldn't expect more than 65 games from him any season and I actually don't think he is as good as some of these other players.
So when I compare Embiid vs Lavine, I am more likely to accept risk on Embiid. But when it is all said and done, I don't really want either due to injury concern. Teams that can keep good players on the floor do well. Giving up top picks for guys that can't stay on the floor is a problem.
I see guys like Jokic, Tatum, Bridges who are playing 75+ games a year consistently and that translates to winning. Embiid can't win a chip cause he can't stay on the court. Giannis has been wracked with injuries. It hits in the playoffs and they are out.
I don't see Lavine as the kind of "star" that I am willing to lose picks to put him in our lineup and I don't really see him as an upgrade over what we have. Maybe I am wrong.
you def need some luck in the NBA. Embiid wins every season, just hasn't won in playoffs much. Giannis won a chip. Bridges and Tatum haven't won anymore than Embiid.
but I don't think it correlates to games played. I think you need some luck and a high ceiling. Reg season games only get you a high seed, and Embiid has had no issue getting high seeds.
I'm not all in on Lavine, he's not an Embiid level player. but he raises our ceiling and if the price is right he's worth looking at is all i'm saying. We don't have someone as dynamic as him and that was a glaring need in the playoffs. I'm more arguing that he's not injury prone anymore. He played 77 games last year.
Embiid i'd give alot more for b/c he's a rare two way player. But it doesnt look like PHI has any reason to move him.
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The easiest way to get to a three or four or five star team is if Randle Brunson RJ IQ and Mitchell keep winning.
nycericanguy wrote:you look at this roster, and we will have probably 2 first round picks this summer along with 2nd round picks. we are so flush with assets that we could easily deal Grimes and those 2 firsts and not mortgage the future. theres simply no room for 2-3 more young guys on this team. not to mention we have Rokas overseas.
If Knicks stand Pat they will have IQ Hartenstein Fournier Jeffries Dylan Ryan and.Deuce hitting free agency in the summer. If we pencil in extensions for IQ and Hart there are still 3 empty slots. I don't see Rokas competing for a roster spot.
gradyandrew wrote:nycericanguy wrote:you look at this roster, and we will have probably 2 first round picks this summer along with 2nd round picks. we are so flush with assets that we could easily deal Grimes and those 2 firsts and not mortgage the future. theres simply no room for 2-3 more young guys on this team. not to mention we have Rokas overseas.If Knicks stand Pat they will have IQ Hartenstein Fournier Jeffries Dylan Ryan and.Deuce hitting free agency in the summer. If we pencil in extensions for IQ and Hart there are still 3 empty slots. I don't see Rokas competing for a roster spot.
3 empty roster spots yea, but without any minutes available its a moot point. Even Miles and Sims really are deserving of some minutes.
nycericanguy wrote:you look at this roster, and we will have probably 2 first round picks this summer along with 2nd round picks. we are so flush with assets that we could easily deal Grimes and those 2 firsts and not mortgage the future. theres simply no room for 2-3 more young guys on this team. not to mention we have Rokas overseas.
We would be overpaying for Lavine's services. At $40-50mil per that player needs to be an elite impact 2-way franchise player or very close to it. Especially on this Knicks roster since he won't be getting the same shot volume with Brunson, RJ, Randle & IQ in the fold. And all he has is his offensive output.
Due to the lack of spacing from our current frontcourt. Lavine has the ball more as a creator we would need Randle to stay out on the perimeter more this reducing his effectiveness. Or Lavine shifts to more of the catch and shoot option to open the paint for Randle. But we would be paying $40-$50mil for that. We have the slowest pace in the NBA and run a ton of iso ball. Shot volume to support 5 scorers won't be there.
The reason why Grimes starts over IQ though IQ is the better overall player is because with Brunson, RJ, Randle. Grimes makes more sense for fit. He gives 100% effort on defense ala doing things without the ball in his hands. And offers a quality catch and shoot option without demanding shots. As with Brunson, RJ, Randle there are only so many touches to go around. IQ then supplements a 4th scoring option and gives the 2nd unit the needed offensive juice.
If we were to take a $40-$50mil risk on a SG upgrade. The best fit would be a Paul George on a 2 yr ext. Lavine best fit is a stud defensive team that needs a 2nd player to carry heavy offensive load. We don't need someone to carry offensive load. We need upgraded 2-way players.