Knicks · Is DDV showing that Grimes is expendable? (page 6)

Knixkik wrote:The minutes typically balance out over the course of the season with injuries. Barrett was out for a bit and the rest played the right number of minutes. My concern is Grimes seems focused on shots and likely thinking about a potential extension. He isn’t embracing his 3&D role. It’s why I would much rather move him and picks for Caruso who is a fully realized version of what we hope grimes would become but probably won’t. Elite 3&D plus connector ability. Proven in both a bench and starters role. Grimes is showing zero adaptability and a great team needs adaptable players who can play multiple role and not fluctuate in effort or attitude. It doesn’t make grimes wrong in the things he says, but it’s clearly affecting his play. Give grimes until the new year to sort it out internally but then it’s time to look at different options at the starting SG either internally or via trade.

the minutes just arent available unless someone goes down for a very long time.

IQ hasn't played 20 minutes in the last 3 games, has only played 30 min ONE game this year, same for Grimes. IQ is playing for his next contract, he can't be happy about this. There's nothing he's done to deserve such a drastic cut in his minutes.

These guys gotta be allowed to play through some missed shots.

Tough situation but this is why I wasn't so keen on the DDV signing without a trade. It's just way too tight.

In a perfect world everyone would produce even in limited minutes, but that's not how it works in reality, especially with shooters like Grimes.

nycericanguy wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The minutes typically balance out over the course of the season with injuries. Barrett was out for a bit and the rest played the right number of minutes. My concern is Grimes seems focused on shots and likely thinking about a potential extension. He isn’t embracing his 3&D role. It’s why I would much rather move him and picks for Caruso who is a fully realized version of what we hope grimes would become but probably won’t. Elite 3&D plus connector ability. Proven in both a bench and starters role. Grimes is showing zero adaptability and a great team needs adaptable players who can play multiple role and not fluctuate in effort or attitude. It doesn’t make grimes wrong in the things he says, but it’s clearly affecting his play. Give grimes until the new year to sort it out internally but then it’s time to look at different options at the starting SG either internally or via trade.

the minutes just arent available unless someone goes down for a very long time.

IQ hasn't played 20 minutes in the last 3 games, has only played 30 min ONE game this year, same for Grimes. IQ is playing for his next contract, he can't be happy about this. There's nothing he's done to deserve such a drastic cut in his minutes.

These guys gotta be allowed to play through some missed shots.

Tough situation but this is why I wasn't so keen on the DDV signing without a trade. It's just way too tight.

In a perfect world everyone would produce even in limited minutes, but that's not how it works in reality, especially with shooters like Grimes.

The Knicks aren’t unique having a 9-man rotation though. Every team plays 9 or 10 guys. They could cut it to 8 but that’s a lot of minutes. Most teams don’t play that way. I get the whole minutes and rhythm thing but players need to adapt. Not every player is going to play 25+ mins on any team.

Knixkik wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The minutes typically balance out over the course of the season with injuries. Barrett was out for a bit and the rest played the right number of minutes. My concern is Grimes seems focused on shots and likely thinking about a potential extension. He isn’t embracing his 3&D role. It’s why I would much rather move him and picks for Caruso who is a fully realized version of what we hope grimes would become but probably won’t. Elite 3&D plus connector ability. Proven in both a bench and starters role. Grimes is showing zero adaptability and a great team needs adaptable players who can play multiple role and not fluctuate in effort or attitude. It doesn’t make grimes wrong in the things he says, but it’s clearly affecting his play. Give grimes until the new year to sort it out internally but then it’s time to look at different options at the starting SG either internally or via trade.

the minutes just arent available unless someone goes down for a very long time.

IQ hasn't played 20 minutes in the last 3 games, has only played 30 min ONE game this year, same for Grimes. IQ is playing for his next contract, he can't be happy about this. There's nothing he's done to deserve such a drastic cut in his minutes.

These guys gotta be allowed to play through some missed shots.

Tough situation but this is why I wasn't so keen on the DDV signing without a trade. It's just way too tight.

In a perfect world everyone would produce even in limited minutes, but that's not how it works in reality, especially with shooters like Grimes.

The Knicks aren’t unique having a 9-man rotation though. Every team plays 9 or 10 guys. They could cut it to 8 but that’s a lot of minutes. Most teams don’t play that way. I get the whole minutes and rhythm thing but players need to adapt. Not every player is going to play 25+ mins on any team.

no a 9 man rotation isn't unique. but a 9 man rotation with 9 guys that should be playing starter minutes is. There simply aren't enough minutes in a game to play our 9 guys. Our rotation would be fine if we had a guy like Miles playing 8-10mpg as the 9th man.

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Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

GustavBahler wrote:Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

Zach Lowe had JJ Reddick on his podcast and they brought up a good point about how coaches are playing the analytics game. JJ even brought up Quentin's name. JJ believes teams are hurting themselves with their unwillingness to take the midrange or the rim. He said he knows for a fact that role players are being told to immediately kick out to three the minute the get a closeout and get into the paint (he didn't mention Grimes explicitly when he made that point). I think it was the fact that Al Horford only has 7 FTs this season that sparked the discussion. The concern is that it makes it tougher for a player to automatically turn it back on when you need them. But the bigger concern was this style isn't really conducive to playoff success. Bottom line is that this is the sames Thibs who started Josh Okogie. It's easy to see why he has Grimes in the starting lineup. But it doesn't make sense if he's gonna be a traffic cone on offense. Give him a play or two to get in rhythm or let him build his confidence back up on the bench.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

Zach Lowe had JJ Reddick on his podcast and they brought up a good point about how coaches are playing the analytics game. JJ even brought up Quentin's name. JJ believes teams are hurting themselves with their unwillingness to take the midrange or the rim. He said he knows for a fact that role players are being told to immediately kick out to three the minute the get a closeout and get into the paint (he didn't mention Grimes explicitly when he made that point). I think it was the fact that Al Horford only has 7 FTs this season that sparked the discussion. The concern is that it makes it tougher for a player to automatically turn it back on when you need them. But the bigger concern was this style isn't really conducive to playoff success. Bottom line is that this is the sames Thibs who started Josh Okogie. It's easy to see why he has Grimes in the starting lineup. But it doesn't make sense if he's gonna be a traffic cone on offense. Give him a play or two to get in rhythm or let him build his confidence back up on the bench.

On his pod earlier this Summer JJ referenced working with an NBA player this summer who told him he wasn't allowed to take any mid-range shots. He didn't say who the player was but I thought it was probably Grimes.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

Zach Lowe had JJ Reddick on his podcast and they brought up a good point about how coaches are playing the analytics game. JJ even brought up Quentin's name. JJ believes teams are hurting themselves with their unwillingness to take the midrange or the rim. He said he knows for a fact that role players are being told to immediately kick out to three the minute the get a closeout and get into the paint (he didn't mention Grimes explicitly when he made that point). I think it was the fact that Al Horford only has 7 FTs this season that sparked the discussion. The concern is that it makes it tougher for a player to automatically turn it back on when you need them. But the bigger concern was this style isn't really conducive to playoff success. Bottom line is that this is the sames Thibs who started Josh Okogie. It's easy to see why he has Grimes in the starting lineup. But it doesn't make sense if he's gonna be a traffic cone on offense. Give him a play or two to get in rhythm or let him build his confidence back up on the bench.

Its back to the whole 3 on 5 issue, with Mitch and Grimes being an afterthought in the offense. Although they're looking for Mitch more lately. You cant have a wallflower in the starting lineup. And thats the way Grimes is playing on offense.

Thibs approach to drawing up his offense feels like it too often involves forcing one square piece in a round hole. I dont hear any other team that has the same issue.

Players complain about their roles all the time, but this is the third time in a relatively short stretch where players have complained about being stuck with the same shitty role. Shows a lack of inagination on Thibs part IMO. His game has evolved since he came to NY, but at times not enough.

Grimes is playing like crap and he has himself to blame the knicks leaning on him to provide some offense he can't give us zero points as starting shooting guard. Grimes better watch out because he can quickly be gone for somebody and i am not for or against trading for demar derozen but if you don't pick it up by the end off month that trade could happen soon.

EwingPSD wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

Zach Lowe had JJ Reddick on his podcast and they brought up a good point about how coaches are playing the analytics game. JJ even brought up Quentin's name. JJ believes teams are hurting themselves with their unwillingness to take the midrange or the rim. He said he knows for a fact that role players are being told to immediately kick out to three the minute the get a closeout and get into the paint (he didn't mention Grimes explicitly when he made that point). I think it was the fact that Al Horford only has 7 FTs this season that sparked the discussion. The concern is that it makes it tougher for a player to automatically turn it back on when you need them. But the bigger concern was this style isn't really conducive to playoff success. Bottom line is that this is the sames Thibs who started Josh Okogie. It's easy to see why he has Grimes in the starting lineup. But it doesn't make sense if he's gonna be a traffic cone on offense. Give him a play or two to get in rhythm or let him build his confidence back up on the bench.

On his pod earlier this Summer JJ referenced working with an NBA player this summer who told him he wasn't allowed to take any mid-range shots. He didn't say who the player was but I thought it was probably Grimes.

That was my guess as well, but it's only a guess. But if I'm a defender, it would make my life a lot easier. All I've got to dobis run my guy off the line and hcont on my teammates to make the right decisions.

GustavBahler wrote:Right after Obi was traded, Grimes said something that stuck with me. He said that Obi being traded to Indy was good for him because he would be allowed to "play through his mistakes". I thought at the time that it was a "tell". Seemed like an odd thing to say because its a bit of a swipe at Thibs.

Now Grimes is saying what Obi and Hart have said recently. In effect that he's is tired of being stuck in the corner.

Some of this is on Grimes. His lack of aggressiveness doesnt give his teammates the incentive to try to get him going, because he almost never tries to do it himself. Like grabbing rebounds, layups, drive and dish.

I am surprised that Grimes let loose now, I dont see him starting much longer without some bounce back games.

Obi had a quote that stood out to me at the start of the season that I think speaks to Grimes's role/frustration. He said something like he was happy he wasn't always waiting for a touch all the while knowing if he got one he'd immediately have to launch a 25-footer. There was one play last night where Grimes came up and got it on the move like we use Barnet last night. He didn't do a lot with it but he got a touch made a couple of hard dribbles to suck in the D a little then kicked it to Randle who made his own play. He needs to be better regardless. It not an excuse for being this bad but I think getting a couple more touches like that would help him.

I think DDV needs to start. I love Grimes but he is in a rut right now and I think you need to have him try to find it in the 2nd unit.

“It’s just hard when you go the whole quarter without touching the ball, the whole second quarter without touching the ball, and then you get one shot and you got to make it,” Grimes, 23, said. “So it’s tough going out there and just standing in the corner the whole game.”

next thing you know, knicks can only get 2 2nds for Grimes.

jaydh wrote:next thing you know, knicks can only get 2 2nds for Grimes.

That’s where we are heading. Is that grimes fault? Seems like Thibs is the common denominator.

For example. Try to give Indy 2 second rounders for Obi. They will laugh and slam the door in your face.

Can we just one time increase the value of our players before we trade them.

I’m tired of knicks sucking the value out of players, then trading them at their lowest.

blkexec wrote:

jaydh wrote:next thing you know, knicks can only get 2 2nds for Grimes.

That’s where we are heading. Is that grimes fault? Seems like Thibs is the common denominator.

For example. Try to give Indy 2 second rounders for Obi. They will laugh and slam the door in your face.

Can we just one time increase the value of our players before we trade them.

I’m tired of knicks sucking the value out of players, then trading them at their lowest.

You mean trading them when they no longer fit? Other teams do this also.
Lets be objective, you have Randle thriving under Thibs. He was not an allstar or all NBA prior.
Brunson? He is thriving. IQ? Runner up 6th man of the year drafted 26th. If we traded him he'd command more than OBI? You bet.
DDV is coming on.
Hart was a journeyman who got a 4 year deal with 1/3 a season proving to be a good fit. He has a bigger role this year and was frustrated. how has he responded? He is hitting his shots.

Knicks have been on a good run after a slow and tough schedule. Its not like the team is floundering. Grimes starts and is earning his time by playing stellar defense and the unit is doing well.

I agree he should get more looks and he has to hit them to earn the trust of coach and teammates. He should also keep this in house and not put his coach in a position publicly.

He definitely needs more touches. Not just for his sake either

Right now the opponent is being given a breather/break on defense.

Have him run around some screen; make the opponent expend some energy and perhaps make a mistake. Especially since we’re deep st guard there’s a lot to be said for trying to tire the opponent out

One way to get defense oriented/guys who lack confidence going is give them a lot of 1st quarter shots. Oakley used to shoot 3-4 first quarter mid range jumpers.

We need to get Grimes a few shots early and see if he hits them. If he gets a couple 3s under his belt he will be engaged throughout the game. Its hard to do in a huge matchup like Milwaukee, but once we get to a more friendly matchup its worth trying to get him involved early.

He clearly lost his shot post injury. Before then he still wasnt driving enough. He had a great sequence in the Toronto game where he attacked the rim and he looked like the more effective offensive version of himself that he showed last year. He is not seeing the ball that much, but its partially on him to get more aggressive with the ball and have conviction in his offense.

Unfortunately its going to be near impossible to have Hart, DDV, Grimes, RJ, IQ all thrive at the same time.

Might be ups and downs until we clear the logjam.

I wonder if we can pull off a 3 way with CHI & CLE

CHI - Grimes, + our 4 picks this year.
CLE - Lavine + IQ
NY - DM

CLE gets Lavine who is locked up and gives them a much needed sniper wing, plus they get IQ to fill DM's role and defend.

CHI gets a good young player and some nice picks this year. Ours, DAL, DET 2nd, and another 2nd we have.

and we get our guy in DM and clear the logjam a bit while keeping all our picks going forward after this summer.

nycericanguy wrote:I wonder if we can pull off a 3 way with CHI & CLE

CHI - Grimes, + our 4 picks this year.
CLE - Lavine + IQ
NY - DM

CLE gets Lavine who is locked up and gives them a much needed sniper wing, plus they get IQ to fill DM's role and defend.

CHI gets a good young player and some nice picks this year. Ours, DAL, DET 2nd, and another 2nd we have.

and we get our guy in DM and clear the logjam a bit while keeping all our picks going forward after this summer.

Interesting trade