MAKE LAYUPS AND BUNNIES! We have left a ton of assists on the table so far this season shooting a second league worst .496% on 2-point attempts and a lot of those were layup's and dunks to be assisted if converted. Have we made these like a normal team, we'd be somewhere in the middle on assists.
HofstraBBall wrote:KnickDanger wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.
It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/as...
Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.
You mean, just like any other team would?
I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.
we were 2 wins away from the ECF, if reg season Randle had showed up we would have been in the ECF.
I mean we were what tied with 90 seconds to go in game 6 @ MIA? If we had pulled that out it would have been mayhem at MSG for game 7.
The system isn't the issue, it's just a general talent issue.
We lost to arguably the best coach league who had a skeleton of a roster. I give Thibs credit for what he did against the Cavs. But Spo was able to disect us on offense and defense. I'd say it is the system. If regular season Randle showed, maybe things would be different. Maybe my grandma would be a bicycle if she had wheels. We'll never know. I've stayed in the past, that things are OK for the current roster. But I don't think good teams fear us as much because they know if they can get Randle and RJ to keep pump faking while missing the open man, they can force the team into bad shots.
You gave away your argument right there.
First it’s the system, except if the Knicks were at full health with Randle, then we could have maybe beat them with the same system.
That's not what I said. I said maybe. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm just saying I can't completely rule it out. I suspect thatSpo would have hit Ju with a number of help defenders and forced him into offensive killing turnovers.
Maybe it’s not the system. Definitely dont rule that out.
There's one thing I think we can all agree to rule out. We ain't winning a title with Thibs as coach.
Yeah bring back Fizdale. Or Fisher. Or Rambis. Or Isiah. Or....
I remember those years. Everyone complaining about how we needed a tough defensive coach. An experienced coach. Someone that is respected. Takes us to respectability. You know, Thibs.
Love when fan bases blame something in not winning chip. Especially when they blame the coach and ignore that the team just does not have the roster to compete against teams that do. Fans like to whine and blame the good pieces they have. They should instead realize that they have a long way to go before being able to win a chip. A process that involves adding not subtracting. Changing the coach or one or 2 players is not getting us a chip. Btw, 29 fan bases are doing the same every year. Ones that have much better teams than we do. But not a better coach .
Why can't both things be true? Out roster isn't good enough and we run a rudimentary Fischer-Price "My First Offense"? I'm not saying fire Thibs, but that doesn't ignoring brewing or tangible issues I see with him either.
What if we run a different system, it sucks, then we blame coach for not adopting to his players?
We really failing here as a team? Or we just do this when we lose to better teams and have a hissy fit that we ain’t all we had hoped?
“Team does not take risks with its roster”?
Jalen Brunson was a risk.
Drafting OBI was a risk.
Knox, Frankie.
Deuce
Grimes
IQ
Keeping Mitch and resigning him.
All reaches. Some good, some great.
We loved Mitch two weeks ago? NOw we shitting on him?
Josh Hart was a risk.
So was cam. One worked, one did not.
Lack of tall back up PF. Is this team not succeeding because of this?
GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Someone made a great point - if we put this group of guys in a more pass frequent - player movement system the turnovers would sky rocket.
I shudder at thought of Mitch touching the ball more than he does and Julius would cry if he had to pass the ball with less than a quadruple team or 6 pass fakes first.
LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
The Knicks have pretty below average passers and shooters on their team? Their PG rotation over the 4 years has been below average as passers and definitely lean more scorer quality in Elfrid, Burks, Rose, Brunson, IQ?
It's not hard to see why this would be a thing?
Team seems to have maximized some other areas to compensate for this. Like TO's and offensive rebounding.
GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
Was I wrong about Mitch a few weeks ago? Was I wrong about Mitch last game against Boston as he fumbled/bumbled every pass thrown his way? Will I be wrong in the future when Mitch does more of the same?
My point on Duece/Obi was not that they are scrubs but that Thibs will only punish certain players (Deuce/Obi) while other guys have cart Blanche to commit 6 or 7 turnovers all the time without any consequence.
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
The Knicks have pretty below average passers and shooters on their team? Their PG rotation over the 4 years has been below average as passers and definitely lean more scorer quality in Elfrid, Burks, Rose, Brunson, IQ?
It's not hard to see why this would be a thing?
Team seems to have maximized some other areas to compensate for this. Like TO's and offensive rebounding.
Your last comment on minimizing TO’s is kind of my point.
The heavier ISO in part maybe player driven results in less assists but also less TO’s because less passing and primarily the ball in 2-3 players hands.
LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
Was I wrong about Mitch a few weeks ago? Was I wrong about Mitch last game against Boston as he fumbled/bumbled every pass thrown his way? Will I be wrong in the future when Mitch does more of the same?My point on Duece/Obi was not that they are scrubs but that Thibs will only punish certain players (Deuce/Obi) while other guys have cart Blanche to commit 6 or 7 turnovers all the time without any consequence.
Yes you were wrong. You werent critizing Mitch's recent production. You were making a declarative statement that Mitch has no game. You werent talking about a slump. With the exception of steals, the other stuff we've seen before.
As for Obi and Deuce, again you made no effort to qualify your opinion. You just called them scrubs, which they arent. As bad as Grimes has played, I never called him a scrub, even Frank.
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
The Knicks have pretty below average passers and shooters on their team? Their PG rotation over the 4 years has been below average as passers and definitely lean more scorer quality in Elfrid, Burks, Rose, Brunson, IQ?
It's not hard to see why this would be a thing?
Team seems to have maximized some other areas to compensate for this. Like TO's and offensive rebounding.
I could understand maybe a couple of seasons at the bottom, but not 4. We have 3 ball dominant starters who have been looking for their shot first, instead of getting the other 2 starters more involved. Im guessing the bench players have better numbers.
Randle and JB have been looking to share the rock more lately, so hopefully that will move us up. As I said before, we dont have to be elite passers to be contenders, but we cant do it from the bottom of the list. And we cant expect a big trade to solve that problem. Mid pack ranking would be a big step towards contention.
LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:LivingLegend wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Noticed this stat in a Post article on the front page.The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.
Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.
We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.
Thibs always preaching to reporters about let the game dictate where the ball should go,- game is easy…if you are open shoot, if doubled pass yet nobody gets the pass part and Thibs does nothing about it.
Part of it is the players —- part is no reprimand if you don’t pass unless you are Obi or Deuse or some other scrub.
Thats what you said about Mitch a few weeks ago. Deuce is showing a handle, and no one is calling Obi a scrub in Indy.
If your team has the worst cummulative team assist rate since you became coach, its on you. Talk is cheap.
Was I wrong about Mitch a few weeks ago? Was I wrong about Mitch last game against Boston as he fumbled/bumbled every pass thrown his way? Will I be wrong in the future when Mitch does more of the same?
My point on Duece/Obi was not that they are scrubs but that Thibs will only punish certain players (Deuce/Obi) while other guys have cart Blanche to commit 6 or 7 turnovers all the time without any consequence.
I think the Knicks have a ton of assets, but the one resource they are lacking is opportunity. Its headlined in the press lately with Grimes, Hart, DDV getting less shots than they should. Our big three are eating up the shot attempts. Their defense is amongst the best in the league. Their offensive efficiency is relatively low for a good team. Take that in stride. Its exactly what you would expect from Thibs. My eye test is that JB/JR/RJ trilogy are ball-hogging a bit. Brunson is arguably the only one that should be.
Basically, they are the bottom of the top tier of teams and will remain that way until they do something better with their offense. That results in a swinger's chance in the playoffs and the 20th pick in the draft.
Short answer - they need to implement a motion offense and get the rest of the team involved.
36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made.
For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
DDV and Hart showing what they can do!
martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
I don't even begin to understand what you are saying or think I'm saying
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
I don't even begin to understand what you are saying or think I'm saying
"Misplaced sense of too much ISO ball". Nothing misplaced about it. If it were, there wouldnt be so many complaints from players stretching back seasons, of being shut out of the offense.
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
I don't even begin to understand what you are saying or think I'm saying
"Misplaced sense of too much ISO ball". Nothing misplaced about it. If it were, there wouldnt be so many complaints from players stretching back seasons, of being shut out of the offense.
My whole post was 1 big fucking fat joke
martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
I don't even begin to understand what you are saying or think I'm saying
"Misplaced sense of too much ISO ball". Nothing misplaced about it. If it were, there wouldnt be so many complaints from players stretching back seasons, of being shut out of the offense.
My whole post was 1 big fucking fat joke
Dont be so hard on yourself Martin, we know you're trying!
GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:GustavBahler wrote:martin wrote:KnickDanger wrote:36 assists tonight! I have noticed assists go up when shots are made. For the record I consider ball movement a leading trait of good teams along with defense. Shot making can often follow those two. More consistency from the team in these areas would be welcome.
It’s out of spite. Spite for a poor system, angry at all the injuries, and it comes from a misplaced sense of too much ISO ball
One win, and all of a sudden we were a good passing team all along? GTFO.
I don't even begin to understand what you are saying or think I'm saying
"Misplaced sense of too much ISO ball". Nothing misplaced about it. If it were, there wouldnt be so many complaints from players stretching back seasons, of being shut out of the offense.
My whole post was 1 big fucking fat joke
Dont be so hard on yourself Martin, we know you're trying!
GustavBahler, I'm saying this is a mod: you gotta do better. Going straight to GTFO in this context is not it.
