Knicks · DeJounte Murray vs MIA in playoffs - 23/7/7 with 2 steals per game and only 2 TO's in 38mpg on 45/38/100 shooting. (page 16)
BigDaddyG wrote:VDesai wrote:nycericanguy wrote:this is like arguing you wouldn't want IQ back b/c he'd take the ball out of Brunson's hands...lol.Brunson is great but you cant ask him to beat teams in the playoffs by himself.
DJM is more about taking the ball out of Deuce's hands for 13mpg, and letting Brunson play off ball for a few more where he can focus on attacking.
The only (major) difference is IQ is who we had, so there was no choice in the role we had to give him. Now that its a choice and we have to give up assets to make an acquisition, a lot more goes into whether its the right fit from a chemistry situation and cost of give up.
Also, IQ has proven he can play off ball. There's no question that he fit. We're saying Murray disappointed because he was in the wrong situation, but that can be rectified by trading for him and putting him in a similar situation. Yeah, it's possible that he plays better. But chances are pretty high that he faces the issues.
How did IQ play better off ball?
martin wrote:Rookie wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:martin wrote:VDesai wrote:I wonder why the Knicks didn't ask for Schroeder back alongside OG instead of Precious/Malachi. They must have really liked Precious as a backup big - and given he has been playing ahead of Sims whom they have been developing for 3 years, that would seem to be the case.Because the Knicks did need a big. And Malachi sucks compared to Schroeder, so Toronto needs him next to IQ.
And the Knicks wouldn't have been able to swing the $$$ for Schroeder.
Pretty sure the salary matching would have worked if it was Schroeder instead of Achiuwa/Flynn coming back. We ended up with a trade exception in the deal so I though we sent more salary out then what came in. In any event, they obviously wanted Precious in the deal because they see him as more viable than Sims and from a scouting perspective found value in his skillset. Wasn't clear why that was the case the first few games, but certainly saw more promise against Toronto. I feel like he was very soft finishing at the rim in his early games with NY, but he showed out better in this regard. He is also a guy who like to step out occasionally for the 3- he's not shot it at a good rate, but we haven't really seen much of that in his game yet.
I'm sure both teams could have found a way for salary to match up. But the value and type of players don't make sense in totality. Like, why would Toronto want to give up Schroeder in that deal versus Malachi?
And not for nothing, the Knicks needed to find out what they have in Deuce, he was at end of contract.
It's only 11 games but Deuce isn't looking like a PG. He might get by as an undersized SG or a combo guard if he can continue to shoot well from 3. He is strong enough to be effective as a defender. He does not look like a primary ball handler to me and his assist numbers aren't great either. I think his long term outlook is as an emergency bench reserve/practice player but I'm all for him having the rotation spot to lose for now. This should be the summer we bring that Euro stash PG over (I forgot his name). Deuce seems to get in trouble when he tries to do too much. Does playing time fix this, I dunno.
Let's be honest. For 2.5 years, IQ looked utterly lost playing PG. He had some great moments during those awful 2.5 years. And now he is vastly different from a PG perspective.
You need to give consistent minutes and keep with that role over an extended time period to see what you got.
True. Truth is, I don't know if this team is good enough to beat Boston this year. Swinger's chance. That Boston team is pretty well constructed to be the team I'd like us to be. So, its worth letting McBride cut his teeth with some playoff minutes. BUT, if a player is available that really makes it seem like we can compete this year, I think McBride's minutes are a casualty. I think we are close though. Celts took health risk when trading for KP and Holiday. Gotta own that risk headed toward the playoffs.
Those of you who want to make another change to the starting lineup. Wouldnt you be psyched to see Murray making the most of Mitch as a lob threat?
Like Grimes, more room to get buckets in the second unit. How many 2nd units will be able to hang with ours? Not many I imagine. It would be a second unit good enough to start if we add a good backup PF as well.
The biggest positive I see from the current starting unit is they arent stepping on each other's toes offensively. They have this bball esp going where they know for the most part, when to chip in, and when to play a supporting role. I honestly cant remember the last time Ive seen a Knicks starting unit gel like this. Why Im having a really hard time getting why anyone would want to mess with such a well oiled machine.
Murray would be able to run the second unit according to his strengths, which I believe will not work as well with the scorers we already have starting. And the chemistry they've developed PDQ. Dont mess with success IMO.
nycericanguy wrote:we had the assets to add KP and DJM to this squad without mortgaging our future.we let KP go to a rival for peanuts instead, and now Lakers gonna get DJM for one 1st?
We did not do that, that's a false positive you are trying to spin cause you like your idea. That idea is for sure a good one in isolation (and perfect for Boston because of Al Horford and the proven offensive commodities of Brown/Tatum), but no way in hell the Knicks were in the absolute position to nab KP and thus "let KP go to a rival for peanuts" in the context you keep referring to. Just no way.
Teams do not typically play defense (trade for a player that an opposition may or may not want) in trades at this level of cost, they do mostly offense and try to build their own team.
You are purposely being naive about the whole situation: what KP wanted (cause he had a say from both next contract and years and thus which team he would resign to), and what the owner of the Knicks and the collective FO would need to do to introduce KP into the Knicks team build up. I.e., retool the whole roster around a player who can break at any moment (an oft injured KP/Randle back line is not ideal), take away the trust they had built up in Mitch and move him or iHart and then retool the team philosophy of building your defense up through the middle with killer rim protection and POA defenders on the wing that doesn't fit your long term plans of defense up the middle which also suits your coach, Thibs would also need to be reevaluated as a fit for your new team just because of KP.
In a vacuum, did the Knicks have enough assets to trade for KP? YES
Would it be GREAT to have a feel good moment with KP? YES
Would having a spacer 5 be incredibly awesome and make the Knicks a better team? YES
Does it make sense to do this trade from KP's perspective, the Knicks owner's vengeful, spiteful perspective? The Knicks team roster perspective? DOUBTFUL
Here is the nut of it: If you are KP back last summer and you had a say in going to (ie. re-signing with) the Knicks or Boston, which is your preference? Cause that answer is in the decision tree for Knicks FO, the Knicks would need to outbid Boston's contract offer as if both teams had cap space and KP was an UFA. More succinctly: to convince KP to resign with the Knicks (cause he was could be an UFA), you would need to outbid KP's prearranged contract extension with Boston. And you would need to negotiate that with blinders on cause KP can just make up a number that Boston "is willing to give him". Why all the prearranged contract stuff? Cause that's how it works. See Siakam, OG, Brunson.
Also, if Brunson wanted KP on his team, KP would be on the Knicks. Did Brunson speak up? No way to know but I've never heard Brunson say anything to indicate that he REALLY wanted KP and that should be a thing really.
nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:VDesai wrote:nycericanguy wrote:this is like arguing you wouldn't want IQ back b/c he'd take the ball out of Brunson's hands...lol.Brunson is great but you cant ask him to beat teams in the playoffs by himself.
DJM is more about taking the ball out of Deuce's hands for 13mpg, and letting Brunson play off ball for a few more where he can focus on attacking.
The only (major) difference is IQ is who we had, so there was no choice in the role we had to give him. Now that its a choice and we have to give up assets to make an acquisition, a lot more goes into whether its the right fit from a chemistry situation and cost of give up.
Also, IQ has proven he can play off ball. There's no question that he fit. We're saying Murray disappointed because he was in the wrong situation, but that can be rectified by trading for him and putting him in a similar situation. Yeah, it's possible that he plays better. But chances are pretty high that he faces the issues.How did IQ play better off ball?
Eye test. Also, Brunson and Quick were at least ablt to put up a positive +- in the minutes they played together.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/tradit...
Since assists matter so much you'd think he Murray were killing it when they're in the game together. Not so much...
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/tradit...
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Toppin would be a nice bench piece. Could probably land him for only 2 seconds.
Garrett2010PSD wrote:The Indiana Pacers have made Buddy Hield and Obi Toppin available for trade, per @BrettSiegelNBA(Via bit.ly/3St4QY2)
Toppin would be a nice bench piece. Could probably land him for only 2 seconds.
I'm cool with OG taking the backup 4 minutes. Wouldn't mind Hield tho
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Garrett2010PSD wrote:Woj: Knicks looking at “scoring help off the bench. They made their big trade with OG Anunoby. It has paid off…They wanna keep themselves in position to do another big one for an All-Star, All-NBA level player that very likely would be this offseason. That player's not available now—but certainly players like Bruce Brown in Toronto now, Alec Burks, Jordan Clarkson in Utah. The Knicks have the assets, they have an expiring contract in Evan Fournier, to be able to do a trade in the short term for some bench help going into the postseason without compromising themselves on going big-game hunting in the offseason. They have a lot of picks and they have assets that they can use in trades. They can do something here at the deadline and not take themselves out of the bigger thing that they hope comes along for them, probably more so in this offseason or maybe into next year.”More on ESPN NBA Today: espn.com/watch/player/_…
An expiring EF and second round pick is the likely cost. Get to the deadline and what else they gonna get for those guys. Clarkson might be two 2nds.
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Nalod wrote:Garrett2010PSD wrote:Woj: Knicks looking at “scoring help off the bench. They made their big trade with OG Anunoby. It has paid off…They wanna keep themselves in position to do another big one for an All-Star, All-NBA level player that very likely would be this offseason. That player's not available now—but certainly players like Bruce Brown in Toronto now, Alec Burks, Jordan Clarkson in Utah. The Knicks have the assets, they have an expiring contract in Evan Fournier, to be able to do a trade in the short term for some bench help going into the postseason without compromising themselves on going big-game hunting in the offseason. They have a lot of picks and they have assets that they can use in trades. They can do something here at the deadline and not take themselves out of the bigger thing that they hope comes along for them, probably more so in this offseason or maybe into next year.”More on ESPN NBA Today: espn.com/watch/player/_…
An expiring EF and second round pick is the likely cost. Get to the deadline and what else they gonna get for those guys. Clarkson might be two 2nds.
I was hoping for Brogdan but I'm sure he would cost more than that.
martin wrote:LOL should we read this as Knicks have drawn a line at Grimes, Fournier, and a very good 1st round pick and Brock doesn't wanna give up that 2nd first round pick yet?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1750185582884491488?s=20
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Why would we hold unto any draft picks unless there is a better move out there- and I don’t see it.
To my thinking, you go all in because this year we are getting unique production from Randle and JB. Add Murray and I see that as maybe the best version of the Knicks we can build- unless there is some way Spider or Bridges can find a way here.
franco12 wrote:martin wrote:LOL should we read this as Knicks have drawn a line at Grimes, Fournier, and a very good 1st round pick and Brock doesn't wanna give up that 2nd first round pick yet?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1750185582884491488?s=20
Click here to view the TweetWhy would we hold unto any draft picks unless there is a better move out there- and I don’t see it.
To my thinking, you go all in because this year we are getting unique production from Randle and JB. Add Murray and I see that as maybe the best version of the Knicks we can build- unless there is some way Spider or Bridges can find a way here.
Sometimes it's just comes down to haggling. Atlanta wants all the picks and the Knicks want to keep all the picks. Maybe they split down the middle and come to an agreement that makes both parties unhappy? Maybe Cleveland finds a sucker? The point is there are no teams out there so far with assets who have the willingness to meet Atlanta's demands. This isn't an all in team in my honest opinion, so I can't see going all in unless it's a top 10 player. Nothing wrong with waiting it out and seeing who blinks first.
franco12 wrote:martin wrote:LOL should we read this as Knicks have drawn a line at Grimes, Fournier, and a very good 1st round pick and Brock doesn't wanna give up that 2nd first round pick yet?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1750185582884491488?s=20
Click here to view the TweetWhy would we hold unto any draft picks unless there is a better move out there- and I don’t see it.
To my thinking, you go all in because this year we are getting unique production from Randle and JB. Add Murray and I see that as maybe the best version of the Knicks we can build- unless there is some way Spider or Bridges can find a way here.
Have you met Brock Aller and his dancing back and forth and up and down the draft collecting second round picks along the way?
That mf negotiating and squeezing the last drop of water from that trade rock
Don't be the Ho who drops panties at the first 5 dolla holla, play hard to get and wait for the C note
martin wrote:LOL should we read this as Knicks have drawn a line at Grimes, Fournier, and a very good 1st round pick and Brock doesn't wanna give up that 2nd first round pick yet?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1750185582884491488?s=20
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I get the 2 first rounders, dont get asking for a starter as well. One or the other.
martin wrote:franco12 wrote:martin wrote:LOL should we read this as Knicks have drawn a line at Grimes, Fournier, and a very good 1st round pick and Brock doesn't wanna give up that 2nd first round pick yet?Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/BTRowland/status/1750185582884491488?s=20
Click here to view the TweetWhy would we hold unto any draft picks unless there is a better move out there- and I don’t see it.
To my thinking, you go all in because this year we are getting unique production from Randle and JB. Add Murray and I see that as maybe the best version of the Knicks we can build- unless there is some way Spider or Bridges can find a way here.
Have you met Brock Aller and his dancing back and forth and up and down the draft collecting second round picks along the way?
That mf negotiating and squeezing the last drop of water from that trade rock
Don't be the Ho who drops panties at the first 5 dolla holla, play hard to get and wait for the C note
I don’t know Brock or who is guiding our thinking. But I feel like Murray might be the best player/fit out there available. I would hate to miss out because we’re so eager to hold on to a later first round pick that we’re not going to make anyway.
Brunson and Randle are probably putting up their best years ever they’ll put up in their career. We have cap room/flexibility and chemistry. Our best chance with this group is this year, not next.
I will absolutely trust this FO. They have been exceptional and some of that has been luck.