Knicks · [GT 2/26/24 @7:30PM] Knicks vs Pistons (page 4)
Nalod wrote:MS wrote:Knicks take the L on this trade. Burks and Bogey very average.Grimes still a plus defender with skills we need. Might have been better picking up fourniers option. Grimes is definitely better than a 1st rounder.
Jalen and Josh great this eve. Need to get IHart more involved on pick and rolls. Missing easy baskets for him.
We back this week to not liking the trade?
Grimes showed up last night and looked really good. In the 4th. Unless they move Ivey he not starting on that team. So he in same role he was here.
He had a great 4th quarter.
EF played well also. THese were guys that could not get minutes here.
Short term stuff. Give Burkes a few more games to get back to it.
What? Grimes got minutes here. He asked to move to the 2nd unit so he could handle the ball more. Remember when our 2nd unit was a strength? Rose, IQ, Grimes and the ball was humming. Heck, we even experimented with Grimes running point in SL. If Thibs had his way, we'd only have veterans on the team. We need the yoots coming up and pushing the vets for minutes. It was too soon to give up on the kid for a couple crusty vets who can't defend as hard as they try.
Brunson with another monster game with 35 and 12 and hit two huge baskets at the end. But gameball goes to Hart. Played his ass off and made all the hustle plays and good to see him hit 3/5 from three.
Surprised Fournier got booed that badly but it's actually a good thing. I think fans today are a little too forgiving with former players who shit the bed here. Fact is Fournier didn't live up to his contract and therefor should be booed.
Flynn was impressive. Had some nice crossovers and sparked their run. Grimes played his usual great man on man defense. We miss him and should have had the game winning layup.
SergioNYK wrote:A win is a win is a win. Boo hoo sorry Detroit! We too know how it feels to get screwed by NBA officiating so can't say we feel bad for you. And plus Pistons are tanking so a loss helps!yeah good call. At least after that bad call we still had to score vs. handing a player FTs for a loose ball foul with less than a second to end and win the game.Brunson with another monster game with 35 and 12 and hit two huge baskets at the end. But gameball goes to Hart. Played his ass off and made all the hustle plays and good to see him hit 3/5 from three.
Surprised Fournier got booed that badly but it's actually a good thing. I think fans today are a little too forgiving with former players who shit the bed here. Fact is Fournier didn't live up to his contract and therefor should be booed.
Flynn was impressive. Had some nice crossovers and sparked their run. Grimes played his usual great man on man defense. We miss him and should have had the game winning layup.
Knicks are literally missing their starting frontcourt and coincidentally 3 of their best players. The standings matter. Finding a way to overtake Milw and get that 3rd seed could be what sets us for a deep playoff run. Cle round 2 (winnable), and Boston ECF (surely KP will be hurt by then)
nycericanguy wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Burks is trash, Bogs is trash on D. OG is injury prone.We gave up all our youth to watch OG sit on the bench.
Our former Knicks werent playing against 3 starters, keep that in mind. Our D isnt nearly as stout with OG on the IL.
OG is TBD, too early to call it. Way too early. But I agree its something to keep an eye on. We'll see how long until the next big injury.
I remember when I was saying we should trade for KP, and that OG had played less games than guys like KP and Lavine the past 5 years.
this isn't really unexpected, he misses a ton of games. and we traded youth that rarely missed games.
TOR has a whole starting backcourt flourishing. We needed to build around RJ & Brunson.
and trading Grimes just felt like trading him for the sake of it for 2 very short term pieces. and we probably had to do it b/c we trade for an injury prone OG.
What's the goal though? There is zero question at full health we are a better team than we were before the OG trade. Our defense soared to best in the league, our assist rate went up, Randle and Brunson played the best ball of their careers, simultaneously, which is hard to do with two ball dominant scorers. We blew out Philly by 30 while they were on an 11-1 stretch with Embiid basically averaging 45ppg during that span. We also blew out Denver by 30. This team elevated to a level they would never hit prior to the trade, where defense was mediocre at best and the assist rate was piss poor. The goal isn't regular season anymore, so having ironmen is not as important as having a team that can make a legit run in the playoffs. OG is a needed piece to guard all the top wings and forwards in the East, previously we would put Randle/RJ on Tatum and Giannis. Not going anywhere with that.
Every contender has key players that are injury prone, and it requires a little bit a luck. Can't find one with out it.
Also, Toronto is not going to be more than play-in fodder with IQ/RJ starting backcourt. Barring getting a Giannis or Embiid level player in the front court.
We could have kept the young players if we wanted to, but we valued the picks more, so time will tell if that is the right move.
DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Burks is trash, Bogs is trash on D. OG is injury prone.We gave up all our youth to watch OG sit on the bench.
Our former Knicks werent playing against 3 starters, keep that in mind. Our D isnt nearly as stout with OG on the IL.
OG is TBD, too early to call it. Way too early. But I agree its something to keep an eye on. We'll see how long until the next big injury.
I remember when I was saying we should trade for KP, and that OG had played less games than guys like KP and Lavine the past 5 years.
this isn't really unexpected, he misses a ton of games. and we traded youth that rarely missed games.
TOR has a whole starting backcourt flourishing. We needed to build around RJ & Brunson.
and trading Grimes just felt like trading him for the sake of it for 2 very short term pieces. and we probably had to do it b/c we trade for an injury prone OG.
What's the goal though? There is zero question at full health we are a better team than we were before the OG trade. Our defense soared to best in the league, our assist rate went up, Randle and Brunson played the best ball of their careers, simultaneously, which is hard to do with two ball dominant scorers. We blew out Philly by 30 while they were on an 11-1 stretch with Embiid basically averaging 45ppg during that span. We also blew out Denver by 30. This team elevated to a level they would never hit prior to the trade, where defense was mediocre at best and the assist rate was piss poor. The goal isn't regular season anymore, so having ironmen is not as important as having a team that can make a legit run in the playoffs. OG is a needed piece to guard all the top wings and forwards in the East, previously we would put Randle/RJ on Tatum and Giannis. Not going anywhere with that.
Every contender has key players that are injury prone, and it requires a little bit a luck. Can't find one with out it.
Also, Toronto is not going to be more than play-in fodder with IQ/RJ starting backcourt. Barring getting a Giannis or Embiid level player in the front court.
the goal should be to win a chip of course, but we traded RJ, IQ, Grimes, Obi, #31 pick, Evan's expiring and two more 2nds and OG is the only long term piece we got and he doesn't make us a realistic title contender.
KP would have put us in that low key contender status without giving up really ANYONE of our young core.
Just think we could have toed the line between NOW and FUTURE much better, just wayyyy too many assets given up for essentially OG.
we've shortened our window by trading away the youth, and we've put way too much pressure on Brunson without IQ here.
nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:GustavBahler wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Burks is trash, Bogs is trash on D. OG is injury prone.We gave up all our youth to watch OG sit on the bench.
Our former Knicks werent playing against 3 starters, keep that in mind. Our D isnt nearly as stout with OG on the IL.
OG is TBD, too early to call it. Way too early. But I agree its something to keep an eye on. We'll see how long until the next big injury.
I remember when I was saying we should trade for KP, and that OG had played less games than guys like KP and Lavine the past 5 years.
this isn't really unexpected, he misses a ton of games. and we traded youth that rarely missed games.
TOR has a whole starting backcourt flourishing. We needed to build around RJ & Brunson.
and trading Grimes just felt like trading him for the sake of it for 2 very short term pieces. and we probably had to do it b/c we trade for an injury prone OG.
What's the goal though? There is zero question at full health we are a better team than we were before the OG trade. Our defense soared to best in the league, our assist rate went up, Randle and Brunson played the best ball of their careers, simultaneously, which is hard to do with two ball dominant scorers. We blew out Philly by 30 while they were on an 11-1 stretch with Embiid basically averaging 45ppg during that span. We also blew out Denver by 30. This team elevated to a level they would never hit prior to the trade, where defense was mediocre at best and the assist rate was piss poor. The goal isn't regular season anymore, so having ironmen is not as important as having a team that can make a legit run in the playoffs. OG is a needed piece to guard all the top wings and forwards in the East, previously we would put Randle/RJ on Tatum and Giannis. Not going anywhere with that.
Every contender has key players that are injury prone, and it requires a little bit a luck. Can't find one with out it.
Also, Toronto is not going to be more than play-in fodder with IQ/RJ starting backcourt. Barring getting a Giannis or Embiid level player in the front court.
the goal should be to win a chip of course, but we traded RJ, IQ, Grimes, Obi, #31 pick, Evan's expiring and two more 2nds and OG is the only long term piece we got and he doesn't make us a realistic title contender.
KP would have put us in that low key contender status without giving up really ANYONE of our young core.
Just think we could have toed the line between NOW and FUTURE much better, just wayyyy too many assets given up for essentially OG.
we've shortened our window by trading away the youth, and we've put way too much pressure on Brunson without IQ here.
Our youth were never relevant to the window IMO. It would always be hinged on the guys above them in the pecking order, because they are 4th/5th guys on a contender regardless of where they are playing. RJ and IQ for OG and Precious is a trade you make 10x out of 10. The DET trade is iffy as I said. But our success and hopes was always all about Brunson and Randle and whomever we obtain using the 8 picks we have to trade, and their support is better now, when healthy, than it was before the trade.
I agree there is too much pressure on Brunson but that is magnified because Randle and OG are out. Everything will slide back into place when we are at full health, and it won't look like Brunson vs everybody.
Would Knicks be better with an injured Randle before the trades? Probably. But that's not what should guide you. At full health they are unquestionably better on both ends and it's not up for debate.
nycericanguy wrote:there were lots of trades that would make us better, but we shouldnt have traded all the youth unless it made us a legit contender or got us a 2nd star. I don't think we accomplished either.
Starfuck or nothing!!!
Since Jan 1 (~25 games), Knicks are: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced...
#4 in record
#9 in Offense Rating
#3 in Defense Rating
#4 in Net Rating
Missing some guys. About a third of season. It's hard to objectively say that the Knicks didn't get better or make the right trades. Pretty much head in sand if you feel to proceed with that argument.
Knicks are already in the hunt for Donovan or Mikal. Both of those guys have probably blinked and the winking-flirting stages are in full effect.
I am interested to know what let the Knicks feel comfortable swapping Grimes for Bogs/Burks. Cause that's an all in short term move.
nycericanguy, at full health, do you think the Knicks have as good as any team in the east of beating Boston? Cause if you do, then you go for it, right?
nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.
Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
You are better than this. Randle needed ankle surgery that kept him out 4 months. He has been shit for 2 playoffs now, maybe you can't see any extenuating circumstances? That'll be on you to come to a hard conclusion on.
You fall flat when you make KP the shining example of your trade ideas and then poo poo OG. You are better than that.
Or not.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
You are better than this. Randle needed ankle surgery that kept him out 4 months. He has been shit for 2 playoffs now, maybe you can't see any extenuating circumstances? That'll be on you to come to a hard conclusion on.
You fall flat when you make KP the shining example of your trade ideas and then poo poo OG. You are better than that.
Or not.
Randle has faltered under pressure, until he proves he can play in the playoffs lights, I will assume he can;t.
KP plays C, a position we are stacked at and were well equipped to afford him missing 20-30 games a year. and of course he was traded for only Tyus and #35th pick. I would never have suggested trading RJ or IQ for him, let alone both.
you can disagree, fine, but I said from the get we probably handed BOS the title by not trading for him.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
You are better than this. Randle needed ankle surgery that kept him out 4 months. He has been shit for 2 playoffs now, maybe you can't see any extenuating circumstances? That'll be on you to come to a hard conclusion on.
You fall flat when you make KP the shining example of your trade ideas and then poo poo OG. You are better than that.
Or not.
Randle has faltered under pressure, until he proves he can play in the playoffs lights, I will assume he can;t.
KP plays C, a position we are stacked at and were well equipped to afford him missing 20-30 games a year. and of course he was traded for only Tyus and #35th pick. I would never have suggested trading RJ or IQ for him, let alone both.
you can disagree, fine, but I said from the get we probably handed BOS the title by not trading for him.
It's a pretty simple way to take on life. I think you are better than that.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
As it stands now its looking like Donte. With some Bojan off the bench.
Brunson is 27, OG is 26, Donte 27, Precious is 24, Mcbride is 23, Hartenstein is 25, Mitch is 25. With Randle & Hart dead smack in their prime at 28 & 29.
Looks like plenty of young veterans on the team already who are in prime or entering prime where age shouldn't be an issue. Then there is the fact that the Knicks have 4 draft first round draft picks over the next 2 seasons not counting the ones that may or not convey from Detroit(maybe next year after they spend in FA) and Wiz(Probably wont). Could easily replenish pipeline youth.
newyorknewyork wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
As it stands now its looking like Donte. With some Bojan off the bench.
Brunson is 27, OG is 26, Donte 27, Precious is 24, Mcbride is 23, Hartenstein is 25, Mitch is 25. With Randle & Hart dead smack in their prime at 28 & 29.
Looks like plenty of young veterans on the team already who are in prime or entering prime where age shouldn't be an issue. Then there is the fact that the Knicks have 4 draft first round draft picks over the next 2 seasons not counting the ones that may or not convey from Detroit(maybe next year after they spend in FA) and Wiz(Probably wont). Could easily replenish pipeline youth.
Donte has been great, but if you're relying on him to be your #2, you're not going far.
His career playoff numbers are 5.6ppg on 38/31/66 shooting and it's a pretty large sample size.
nycericanguy wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
As it stands now its looking like Donte. With some Bojan off the bench.
Brunson is 27, OG is 26, Donte 27, Precious is 24, Mcbride is 23, Hartenstein is 25, Mitch is 25. With Randle & Hart dead smack in their prime at 28 & 29.
Looks like plenty of young veterans on the team already who are in prime or entering prime where age shouldn't be an issue. Then there is the fact that the Knicks have 4 draft first round draft picks over the next 2 seasons not counting the ones that may or not convey from Detroit(maybe next year after they spend in FA) and Wiz(Probably wont). Could easily replenish pipeline youth.
Donte has been great, but if you're relying on him to be your #2, you're not going far.
His career playoff numbers are 5.6ppg on 38/31/66 shooting and it's a pretty large sample size.
Your assumption is that someone, anyone thinks Donte will be NY's #2 option? Kind of a dead ender, no?
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
At full health, I think the Knicks have a better chance of beating the Celtics than any team other than a healthy Embiid led Sixers squad. I don't think that either of Burks or Bogs will be effective in that series.
iHart and jHart with good minutes off the bench. Spot minutes for McBride and Precious. Burks and Bogs are situational.
Brunson / McBride
DDV
Anunoby / Hart
Randle / Precious
Robinson / Hart
Holiday
White
Brown
Tatum
Zingis
So, I love Robinson vs Porzingis. Yes, it pulls Robinson out of the paint, but you can switch Randle onto him if you need to. KP's 27 foot 3 will be unguardable, but if that's the shot that kills me, I mean, its the same with Brook Lopez. Make KP be the hero.
Randle vs Tatum / Anunoby vs Brown. Tatum will beat Randle off the dribble. This is where I have OG just switching onto the ballhandler as much as possible between Tatum and Brown. But, I think Tatum will get exhausted guarding Randle. This is where I want Randle to bully ball and bang.
DDV & Brunson vs White and Holiday. I got Brunson as the best of the 4 and I have DDV taking the harder assignments, but if these pairings result in a 3 point shooting contest, we should win. EXCEPT, Thibs needs to find a solution to leaving the corner 3 undefended, Holiday is shooting 60% from that open corner 3. Brunson's job to shut that down, but he is giving up a bit of size.
Bench - I think this is where we win. Hart/Precious/Hart have shown they can be competitive with most starting offenses in the league. I think when this front court swaps in for Anuoby/Randle/Robinson, they don't lose a beat. Compare with Pritchard, Hauser and Horford. Not horrible, but I think Boston gives up a ton of size when the second unit comes in. I am leaving Burks out because he doesn't even look like an NBA player right now. And Bojan has me thinking Fournier 2.0. A little unfair, but in an pinch (injury, foul) that depth will be helpful.
Now, don't mistake any of this to mean that I think the Knicks are better than the Celtics. I do think they are better poised to beat the Celtics than any other team in the East. Just need to get healthy. Also, Celtics would be really really lucky if they stay as healthy as they currently are.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BOS is clearly on another level, KP is the missing piece there, at full health I don't see us beating them.Not the question I posed but thanks.
Wild shit happens all the time. And if you have the chance to ask the prom queen to a dance, you go for it.
Or not.
OG and Bogs make us better, they don't make us better enough to have dumped all the youth for.
We have been one of the best teams in the NBA since the Jhart trade, we would have had a punchers shot regardless.
RJ was huge as the #2 option against CLE, who's replacing that role now if Randle can't deliver again?
You are better than this. Randle needed ankle surgery that kept him out 4 months. He has been shit for 2 playoffs now, maybe you can't see any extenuating circumstances? That'll be on you to come to a hard conclusion on.
You fall flat when you make KP the shining example of your trade ideas and then poo poo OG. You are better than that.
Or not.
Randle has faltered under pressure, until he proves he can play in the playoffs lights, I will assume he can;t.
KP plays C, a position we are stacked at and were well equipped to afford him missing 20-30 games a year. and of course he was traded for only Tyus and #35th pick. I would never have suggested trading RJ or IQ for him, let alone both.
you can disagree, fine, but I said from the get we probably handed BOS the title by not trading for him.
It's a pretty simple way to take on life. I think you are better than that.
I think in years past, the defensive game plan from other teams has been to shut down Randle. Last year this occurred (and Randle had an ankle sprain) and Brunson carried the torch. I think the emergence of Brunson will require teams to use that double of Brunson early. Randle's "gravity" and downhill basketball will hurt teams that work the double. Randle will need to take the next step of reading the defense and making the right play, but with DDV, OG and Brunson on the floor, he has 3 40% 3pt shooters to look for.
So, I don't think its fair to say Randle can't play in the playoffs, I think its fair to say that he needs accept the gravity he creates on the court and be certain to move the ball into the open spaces. Take what the defenses give them and pick his spots.