Knicks · Trading Grimes for the Ghost of Bojan Bogdanovic and Burks Was A Mistake (page 2)
nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/KnicksMuse/status/1767880197116706878?s=20
Click here to view the Tweet
BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.
the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
You are trying to make the argument that being a fun regular season team is better than being dominant and a legit playoff contender. OG has made us elite whenever he is out there. You are on an island trying to frame this as a bad trade.
5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
EwingsGlass wrote:There is next to no lasting harm for this trade. It had some potential to added needed depth. That need is disappearing.I think Bojan is best as a PF and Burks as a SF. Both are slightly out of position with Precious playing so well. But they are both also playing with bad habits they must have picked up in Detroit. Bad decision making. Low efficiency shots. Loose passing style. I don’t have an answer for the bad play. They just need to get into the film room and take their lumps.
The growth of Precious and Deuce, made them obsolete. I don’t think the FO knew what they had and needed insurance. Well that insurance plan needs a down grade. We did not need as much protection as we thought.
Put them in the glass for an emergency only.
DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.
That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.
nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).
I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like shit. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.
Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.
OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.
IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.
I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of fucked up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.
Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.
nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.
That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.
He was steadily getting demoted by Thibs and wasn't really ramping up his mins when injuries hit either. He was basically Obi'ed.
EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).
I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like shit. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.
Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.
OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.
IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.
I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of fucked up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.
Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.
Part of the trade was getting a 1 year expiring to replace Fournier. Unless you think we should've just picked up his option. Obviously we could have done that. But I think that would have been tough to do for the FO.
DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).
I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like shit. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.
Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.
OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.
IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.
I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of fucked up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.
Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.
Part of the trade was getting a 1 year expiring to replace Fournier. Unless you think we should've just picked up his option. Obviously we could have done that. But I think that would have been tough to do for the FO.
I felt the same but then you wonder, what would Evan have really preferred? Going to DET to play garbage time minutes on a horrible team, or getting a $20m payday for 1 more season that he will never see again?
Unfortunately i think Evan's career is pretty much done regardless.
and unfortunately Bogs looks like he might be heading down the same path.
DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.
That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.
He was steadily getting demoted by Thibs and wasn't really ramping up his mins when injuries hit either. He was basically Obi'ed.
He would totally be Obi’d and more. Deuce has proven to be more important to the rotation. Grimes could be getting Burks’ minutes which are shrinking. Grimes would definitely not be happy. Frankly he’s looking like Frank 2.0. For the record I was a Frank and Grimes fanboy. But they teased but never pulled it off.
nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).
I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like shit. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.
Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.
OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.
IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.
I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of fucked up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.
Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.
Part of the trade was getting a 1 year expiring to replace Fournier. Unless you think we should've just picked up his option. Obviously we could have done that. But I think that would have been tough to do for the FO.
I felt the same but then you wonder, what would Evan have really preferred? Going to DET to play garbage time minutes on a horrible team, or getting a $20m payday for 1 more season that he will never see again?
Unfortunately i think Evan's career is pretty much done regardless.
and unfortunately Bogs looks like he might be heading down the same path.
His words seem to suggest he would prefer to be in DET and was thrilled to finally be free of Thibs.
KnickDanger wrote:DLeethal wrote:nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.
That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.
He was steadily getting demoted by Thibs and wasn't really ramping up his mins when injuries hit either. He was basically Obi'ed.
He would totally be Obi’d and more. Deuce has proven to be more important to the rotation. Grimes could be getting Burks’ minutes which are shrinking. Grimes would definitely not be happy. Frankly he’s looking like Frank 2.0. For the record I was a Frank and Grimes fanboy. But they teased but never pulled it off.
Yea, he would be a 10 min player here. I'm fine moving on, especially with how poor he's looked in DET. I don't think we lost a gem here. Burks and Bogs have been worse than expected but it is what it is. Bogs gives us an expiring and we don't really need them at full strength, just like we didn't really need Grimes.
Were they great? Not always, but it was a bad stretch.
We knew OG elbow was needing attention and Randle was gonna be out.
It was a desperate move.
Now, lets see how it all plays out. Grimes is an NBA player but might not be "special". By that, there are lots of guys that shake lose and get picked up as free agents or minor trades.
Good teams move on. Good teams have confidence they can keep improving.
Fans don't can't see the future so we lament on what's in from of us.
We fucking blew out a team last night and Bogs and Burkes looked like crap.
Bogs was a 20 pig scorer. What happened? Why is he struggling? Burks was doing really well also. What happened?
Ask. your selves that and perhaps if you don't have the answer shrug.
Im blown away by OG's relatively ok stat line and yet he influences so much. Tobias Harris was erased by him in the first half.
The byline was "Harris went 0-for......" not, OG shut his ass down!!!!!
Im not sure I can break tape down like many but the dude was on the floor and good things happened!
Bogs in the second unit looked out of sorts. His looks were well contested and he forced it. Knicks have to do better with and around him.
With OG back the minutes shifted. Precious in reserve played great in that role.
With OG back there was more back door cuts with the Villanova boys really threading the needle again.
OG should get an honorary degree from Villanova!!!!
nycericanguy wrote:DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET
as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.
That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.
The advantage grimes has now is he can develop with no pressure, and teams don’t play as hard against Detroit so he will get easier opportunities. But the bad thing is with Cade, Ivey, and Thompson he will have to develop around a bunch of below average outside shooters instead of someone like Brunson.
nycericanguy wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:nycericanguy wrote:Rookie wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.
The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.
well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.
RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.
You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.
The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.
we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.
Ask yourself this - what is Philly going to pay Maxey? Who is more valuable to their team. Well, they are both EXTREMELY valuable to their teams. I would expect OG to get the bag, but south of 40M per. Somewhere between 34-38.
As far as the youth goes, we’re acting like the Steinbrenner Yankees and I do mean George
OG i'm hoping comes in in the low 30's.