Knicks · In a vacuum, who are you going after next if you Leon? Donovan or Mikal? (page 2)
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:fishmike wrote:I really dont want Donovan. Mikal is the Thib's pick easy. That's a legendary defense.I am like 55/45 in the Mikal boat over Donovan.
The big thing Donovan has over Mikal is the end of game situations or minutes where Brunson is not on the floor and you don't have a ballhandler/PG that can just get his own in tight situations. Donovan gives you that.
tough one for me.
Curious, While JB has really blossomed from out of the shadow of Luka, would he not be cast in shade next to Donovan. They are different but Donovan the better player.
Not that anyone would have an issues sacrificing their game let alone JB, but is either the finishing piece? If OG and iHart/mitch retained Perhaps!!!!That may be your opinion but not others. As well, this is Brunson's team, there will be no cast in shade next to Donovan. I think they can co-exist, just like Randle and Brunson.
Maybe, but we've seen how much better the Cavs are when Mitchell is the lone lead guard. We've seen Brunson play off Luka, but Mitchell's effectiveness off-ball is still a question mark.
martin wrote:Nalod wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:ultimately I'm not sure we have the ability to trade for either. We used alot of bullets this season. Obi, Grimes, RJ, IQ, 31st pick + 2 more seconds + Evan's expiring.DDV is nowhere near good enough to be the centerpiece of a deal for DM, no matter how many picks we add as CLE is a win now team.
The Nets actually make more sense as they are rebuilding and we could offer them 5 1sts, but that's a huge wall to break down in getting them to trade with us.
IMHO you are misreading the leverage opportunity. Knicks have enough IMO.
And we need to remove the thought of DDV or Hart going on in a trade for either Mikal or DM. That is just not happening.
You got me. I think DM is a better player than JB. Not hating on JB nor discounting the season he is having.
I know he is a god send, a gift from the heavens and lord knows I am grateful!!!! On the heals of a 45pt night its hard to argue.
He carried knicks to the win last night.
Im not going to debate if he is better or not. I know the playoff argument is the wild card for some but there a too many factors to consider. Im looking at the body of work and age of each. Not just one or two series. If I have to pick one, Yeah, I stick with JB considering the price and value for the money.
Im intrigued by either Mikal or DM but our FO likley does some thing we don't see, will slam it, then turns to gold? LOLMaybe stick with Jalen cause he is already on team too? lol
I was alluding to that if I had to pick one. We got a great player for the tamper penalty of a second round pick.
Donovan would cost a ton.
I think Dm is a better player by how much? Lets just say over two years the margin has shrunk considerably!
nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.
Not really. I don't think Grimes was the difference maker in that trade. Atlanta is trying to recoup most of the assets they gave up and wanted first rounders too.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:ultimately I'm not sure we have the ability to trade for either. We used alot of bullets this season. Obi, Grimes, RJ, IQ, 31st pick + 2 more seconds + Evan's expiring.DDV is nowhere near good enough to be the centerpiece of a deal for DM, no matter how many picks we add as CLE is a win now team.
The Nets actually make more sense as they are rebuilding and we could offer them 5 1sts, but that's a huge wall to break down in getting them to trade with us.
IMHO you are misreading the leverage opportunity. Knicks have enough IMO.
And we need to remove the thought of DDV or Hart going on in a trade for either Mikal or DM. That is just not happening.
maybe, but its a precarious position to be in to have to rely on "leverage".
MIA thought they had leverage but there's usually another team that jumps in.
It's true. Both guys need to force the trade. As did OG, Siakam and most other free agents that have a target destination.
Donovan has given the smoke signals. Mikal is a longer term wait cause of his contract.
Not for nothing but every other team is in that same boat.
but we paid a hefty price for OG, not like we got him at some discount b/c he forced his way here. TOR was said to want both RJ & IQ over our picks.
Siakam is almost 30 years old and a non shooter so the market was a bit different for him.
Your hefty price is not mine; I thought it was an adult trade, especially considering Precious and how it elevated and balanced the roster, both with the additions and subtractions. RJ and IQ are doing really well while Toronto is tanking and losing a lot of games and both have a lot to prove.
The leverage was used for WHERE he was going, not the exchange part; lots and lots and lots of playoff teams were lined up for OG. Siakam had both going for him.
All things are definitely not equal when looking at the Knicks and Toronto since the trade happened, but Raps are still at a bottom 6-7 team (where they want to be considering their next draft pick is top 6 protected) and the Knicks have the 6th best record in the league in that same time frame, with lots of injuries (they were ~14th a time of trade, so they made up a lot of ground with that initial post-OG spurt).
nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.
I'm still a buyer in terms of Grimes the player but there are some other things to consider: He was up for contract extension and (while we know really nothing) it seemed like the very casual rumors from the beat guys seemed to indicate he wanted somewhere in the $20+M range. While he asked OUT of starting lineup.
Those are very very hard positions to put a FO in and that would have dragged out a ton ESPECIALLY considering DDV and Hart would have ate his minutes.
You'd have to acknowledge at least that there would have been an Obi-Randle dynamic going on that would have fucked with everything else.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.I'm still a buyer in terms of Grimes the player but there are some other things to consider: He was up for contract extension and (while we know really nothing) it seemed like the very casual rumors from the beat guys seemed to indicate he wanted somewhere in the $20+M range. While he asked OUT of starting lineup.
Those are very very hard positions to put a FO in and that would have dragged out a ton ESPECIALLY considering DDV and Hart would have ate his minutes.
You'd have to acknowledge at least that there would have been an Obi-Randle dynamic going on that would have fucked with everything else.
Grimes was nowhere near good enough to command even $10m per year, let alone $20m.
So I dont think the contract played a huge role. and again I have no problem trading the youth, just have a problem with what we traded them for.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.I'm still a buyer in terms of Grimes the player but there are some other things to consider: He was up for contract extension and (while we know really nothing) it seemed like the very casual rumors from the beat guys seemed to indicate he wanted somewhere in the $20+M range. While he asked OUT of starting lineup.
Those are very very hard positions to put a FO in and that would have dragged out a ton ESPECIALLY considering DDV and Hart would have ate his minutes.
You'd have to acknowledge at least that there would have been an Obi-Randle dynamic going on that would have fucked with everything else.
Grimes was nowhere near good enough to command even $10m per year, let alone $20m.
So I dont think the contract played a huge role. and again I have no problem trading the youth, just have a problem with what we traded them for.
And yet, that's where the numbers were.
So how are you getting around the Obi-Randle dynamic with Grimes if he stayed?
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.I'm still a buyer in terms of Grimes the player but there are some other things to consider: He was up for contract extension and (while we know really nothing) it seemed like the very casual rumors from the beat guys seemed to indicate he wanted somewhere in the $20+M range. While he asked OUT of starting lineup.
Those are very very hard positions to put a FO in and that would have dragged out a ton ESPECIALLY considering DDV and Hart would have ate his minutes.
You'd have to acknowledge at least that there would have been an Obi-Randle dynamic going on that would have fucked with everything else.
Grimes was nowhere near good enough to command even $10m per year, let alone $20m.
So I dont think the contract played a huge role. and again I have no problem trading the youth, just have a problem with what we traded them for.
And yet, that's where the numbers were.
So how are you getting around the Obi-Randle dynamic with Grimes if he stayed?
i would love to see a legitimate rumor about Grimes potentially getting $20m PER season? I could see 3/20m total, but PER year?
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:if we end up with neither you really have to question not going after DJM, especially considering we traded Grimes anyway.I'm still a buyer in terms of Grimes the player but there are some other things to consider: He was up for contract extension and (while we know really nothing) it seemed like the very casual rumors from the beat guys seemed to indicate he wanted somewhere in the $20+M range. While he asked OUT of starting lineup.
Those are very very hard positions to put a FO in and that would have dragged out a ton ESPECIALLY considering DDV and Hart would have ate his minutes.
You'd have to acknowledge at least that there would have been an Obi-Randle dynamic going on that would have fucked with everything else.
Grimes was nowhere near good enough to command even $10m per year, let alone $20m.
So I dont think the contract played a huge role. and again I have no problem trading the youth, just have a problem with what we traded them for.
And yet, that's where the numbers were.
So how are you getting around the Obi-Randle dynamic with Grimes if he stayed?
i would love to see a legitimate rumor about Grimes potentially getting $20m PER season? I could see 3/20m total, but PER year?
Yep, per year. I don't have links readily available but I think others can back that up.
Knixkik wrote:Mikal would be awesome and would complete that Detroit pistons 2004 look. But I’ll give Mitchell the slight edge for a couple of reasons. One is because it eliminates any concerns of a drop off when Brunson is off the court. Second, any concerns of an undersized backcourt are alleviated by OG being the ultimate equalizer at the SF position. He covers up for defensive concerns anywhere while maintaining proper spacing on offense. For awhile I felt like Mitchell and OG was the longterm goal. A Mitchell/Brunson backcourt is electric, but it has concerns that only OG (and maybe someone like bridges) can balance out.
Bridges would also alleviate any scoring concerns with Brunson off the court. I think you can get away with Deuce bringing the ball up if Bridges is the offensive hub for the second unit. I agree that the team's potential ceiling is much higher with Mitchell. But can Mitchell reach those heights with Brunson in the same backcourt? Brunson is as good or better than Mitchell now. Spida might be a redundancy while Bridges offers more functionality on offense and defense.
Bridges does make more sense but again at what cost? Who do we lose to make that move? Just draft picks? Whose place does he take? JHart, DDV? He comes as a back up or one of those guys becomes one? And then there's the cap...Not saying it couldn't happen or that it wouldn't be good, just that it isn't simple.
Is Donovan that much of a defensive liability or downgrade compared to someone like DDV?
BigDaddyG wrote:Knixkik wrote:Mikal would be awesome and would complete that Detroit pistons 2004 look. But I’ll give Mitchell the slight edge for a couple of reasons. One is because it eliminates any concerns of a drop off when Brunson is off the court. Second, any concerns of an undersized backcourt are alleviated by OG being the ultimate equalizer at the SF position. He covers up for defensive concerns anywhere while maintaining proper spacing on offense. For awhile I felt like Mitchell and OG was the longterm goal. A Mitchell/Brunson backcourt is electric, but it has concerns that only OG (and maybe someone like bridges) can balance out.Bridges would also alleviate any scoring concerns with Brunson off the court. I think you can get away with Deuce bringing the ball up if Bridges is the offensive hub for the second unit. I agree that the team's potential ceiling is much higher with Mitchell. But can Mitchell reach those heights with Brunson in the same backcourt? Brunson is as good or better than Mitchell now. Spida might be a redundancy while Bridges offers more functionality on offense and defense.
Bridges would help but he’s not a playmaker. Mitchell is. He can play PG when needed.
I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
smackeddog wrote:DM is the better player, Mikal is the better fit. If you got DM, I think you'd have to get rid of Randle, as there wouldn't be enough ball to go round, whereas if you got Mikal, I think you could keep him (unless you had to give him up in the trade.I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
I think KAT is the piece we need most. In a trade he doesn't come cheap, a resigned Hartenstein and Randle plus picks and filler I'd imagine.
JesseDark wrote:smackeddog wrote:DM is the better player, Mikal is the better fit. If you got DM, I think you'd have to get rid of Randle, as there wouldn't be enough ball to go round, whereas if you got Mikal, I think you could keep him (unless you had to give him up in the trade.I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
I think KAT is the piece we need most. In a trade he doesn't come cheap, a resigned Hartenstein and Randle plus picks and filler I'd imagine.
That’s an insane trade IMHO
martin wrote:JesseDark wrote:smackeddog wrote:DM is the better player, Mikal is the better fit. If you got DM, I think you'd have to get rid of Randle, as there wouldn't be enough ball to go round, whereas if you got Mikal, I think you could keep him (unless you had to give him up in the trade.I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
I think KAT is the piece we need most. In a trade he doesn't come cheap, a resigned Hartenstein and Randle plus picks and filler I'd imagine.
That’s an insane trade IMHO
It does involve trading Randle.
martin wrote:JesseDark wrote:smackeddog wrote:DM is the better player, Mikal is the better fit. If you got DM, I think you'd have to get rid of Randle, as there wouldn't be enough ball to go round, whereas if you got Mikal, I think you could keep him (unless you had to give him up in the trade.I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
I think KAT is the piece we need most. In a trade he doesn't come cheap, a resigned Hartenstein and Randle plus picks and filler I'd imagine.
That’s an insane trade IMHO
How much better is KAT than Randle at this point honestly ? Is KAT really more than a top 30 player? I don’t think he’s top 25. And Randle has to be top 35-40 given his 3 allstar seasons in 4 years. And Randle isn’t winning any awards by popularity. He’s getting allstar and all-nba honors because he’s proven it. I just don’t see a huge gap between KAT and Randle. They are similar age, similar health history, similar profile of offense and defense.
KnickDanger wrote:martin wrote:JesseDark wrote:smackeddog wrote:DM is the better player, Mikal is the better fit. If you got DM, I think you'd have to get rid of Randle, as there wouldn't be enough ball to go round, whereas if you got Mikal, I think you could keep him (unless you had to give him up in the trade.I actually think we'll end up trading for KAT, though (remember Woj said after the OG trade the Knicks would like target a big name player who their team has to get rid of because of the salary cap)
I think KAT is the piece we need most. In a trade he doesn't come cheap, a resigned Hartenstein and Randle plus picks and filler I'd imagine.
That’s an insane trade IMHO
It does involve trading Randle.
Yeah but it’s an even year so, you know