Knicks · Let the Donovan to NY chatter officially begin (page 3)
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:I think if all else fails I could see us doing a S&T for Derozan. Bogs + a pick or even Mitch.Without RJ here I think DD could make some sense. We have enough shooting now to be able to add someone like him.
Oh interesting idea. DeRozan off bench in the facilitator role?
Forgot he was UFA
Doubt they need or would include Mitch, that’s too much
I know Demar had the Knicks on his list. Would he come off the bench happily?
He is 35. He can sign with a crap team for $ and to be a starter, or play role off bench. That’s how I see it
Probably a ton of better bench player maker options tbh
I dont see a bad team wanting to pay DD big $. He needs to be on a contender.
Exactly. And he don’t got a chip yet too. Makes the S&T possibilities a bit more palpable for the Knicks.
I have no clue on the logistics of something like Precious for Demar? Chi gets a young player to add to their core (and Bulls can maybe ask for one of those not prime 1sts we have) for a vet who is an UFA.
Not sure how it applies, but seems like we have not seen much of this the last few years.
Under terms of the current CBA, sign-and-trades come with many significant restrictions. Transactions under this rule require all of the following to be true:The player must re-sign with his former team.
Additionally, the player must have been on the team's roster at the end of the immediately previous season. This provision, introduced with the 2011 CBA and maintained in the 2017 CBA, closed a loophole that allowed a team to sign-and-trade any player to whom it held "Bird rights", regardless of whether the player was active in the league.[a] An example of such a transaction banned under the current CBA is the Dallas Mavericks' inclusion of Keith Van Horn in the trade for Jason Kidd in order to match salary.
While restricted free agents can be signed and traded, this is not allowed if that player has signed an offer sheet with another team.
The team receiving the player cannot have a payroll that exceeds the so-called "apron"—a designated level above the NBA luxury tax threshold—after the trade. A team with a payroll above the apron can only receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the transaction drops that team's payroll below the apron. Once the transaction is complete, the team receiving the player is hard capped at the apron for the entire season.
The receiving team cannot have used the so-called "taxpayer mid-level exception" in that season. The taxpayer mid-level exception is a limited financial buffer that teams with total payroll above the luxury tax threshold must use to sign players for up to 3 years.
The regular season has not yet started.
The player must receive a contract of either 3 or 4 years (not including any option years), where only the first year must be fully guaranteed. (5-year sign-and-trade contracts were abolished in the 2017 CBA to disincentivize the transaction.) In turn, this means that he cannot be signed using a salary cap exception that does not allow the team to offer a 3-year contract.
Nalod wrote:Been reading about "We can sign and trade...."
Not sure how it applies, but seems like we have not seen much of this the last few years.Under terms of the current CBA, sign-and-trades come with many significant restrictions. Transactions under this rule require all of the following to be true:The player must re-sign with his former team.
Additionally, the player must have been on the team's roster at the end of the immediately previous season. This provision, introduced with the 2011 CBA and maintained in the 2017 CBA, closed a loophole that allowed a team to sign-and-trade any player to whom it held "Bird rights", regardless of whether the player was active in the league.[a] An example of such a transaction banned under the current CBA is the Dallas Mavericks' inclusion of Keith Van Horn in the trade for Jason Kidd in order to match salary.
While restricted free agents can be signed and traded, this is not allowed if that player has signed an offer sheet with another team.
The team receiving the player cannot have a payroll that exceeds the so-called "apron"—a designated level above the NBA luxury tax threshold—after the trade. A team with a payroll above the apron can only receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the transaction drops that team's payroll below the apron. Once the transaction is complete, the team receiving the player is hard capped at the apron for the entire season.
The receiving team cannot have used the so-called "taxpayer mid-level exception" in that season. The taxpayer mid-level exception is a limited financial buffer that teams with total payroll above the luxury tax threshold must use to sign players for up to 3 years.
The regular season has not yet started.
The player must receive a contract of either 3 or 4 years (not including any option years), where only the first year must be fully guaranteed. (5-year sign-and-trade contracts were abolished in the 2017 CBA to disincentivize the transaction.) In turn, this means that he cannot be signed using a salary cap exception that does not allow the team to offer a 3-year contract.
Thanks
nycericanguy wrote:we could prob just sign DD with the MLE
Is it available to Knicks? For some reason I thought you could only use every other year and we used with DDV last year
EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Im like the only guy who reads "Donovan" and thinks... we just dont need himI am not going to pretend DD is better than Donovan, but for the cost and roster impact Donovan is not taking us there. Much prefer Randle as the 2nd scorer and defensive terrors on the wings
I think we all see the possible redundancy in Brunson and Mitchell. I think the posters on this site have all been burned by the "Starphuch" approach and you see many of us clamoring for 3&D wings and rebounding bigs. 2-way role players.
For me, when a guy like Mitchell becomes available, I still have to pause. I mean cost matters, of course. Its a "what if we had two?"
Brunson and Mitchell just choosing who initiates based on matchup
Anunoby and Randle in the corners but cutting to the paint as needed.
iHart in the middle finding the open man.
DDV/Hart/Precious/Robinson subbing in as needed.
I understand the caution, but I would love to see Mitchell in blue and orange.
I think this is overstated tbh. Donovan is like a souped up DDV. He likes to shoot deep 3s at volume, doesn't need much setup time. He can drive and kick and they can play off each other. Donovan has always played next to scoring guards also. Used to playing with non shooting bigs etc. I think Donovan and Brunson would work just fine. Just not sure it's better than simply adding another good player because Donovan would come with substantial "subtraction" of players and picks. We see with MIL this year how that can work out sometimes. Bet they wish they could get Jrue, Grayson, and their perimeter defense back.
DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Im like the only guy who reads "Donovan" and thinks... we just dont need himI am not going to pretend DD is better than Donovan, but for the cost and roster impact Donovan is not taking us there. Much prefer Randle as the 2nd scorer and defensive terrors on the wings
I think we all see the possible redundancy in Brunson and Mitchell. I think the posters on this site have all been burned by the "Starphuch" approach and you see many of us clamoring for 3&D wings and rebounding bigs. 2-way role players.
For me, when a guy like Mitchell becomes available, I still have to pause. I mean cost matters, of course. Its a "what if we had two?"
Brunson and Mitchell just choosing who initiates based on matchup
Anunoby and Randle in the corners but cutting to the paint as needed.
iHart in the middle finding the open man.
DDV/Hart/Precious/Robinson subbing in as needed.
I understand the caution, but I would love to see Mitchell in blue and orange.
I think this is overstated tbh. Donovan is like a souped up DDV. He likes to shoot deep 3s at volume, doesn't need much setup time. He can drive and kick and they can play off each other. Donovan has always played next to scoring guards also. Used to playing with non shooting bigs etc. I think Donovan and Brunson would work just fine. Just not sure it's better than simply adding another good player because Donovan would come with substantial "subtraction" of players and picks. We see with MIL this year how that can work out sometimes. Bet they wish they could get Jrue, Grayson, and their perimeter defense back.
Donovan can also lead a team on an 17-1 run of wins during season with major injuries to key guys on his team, not something DDV could ever sniff. And he can be a breakdown closer in late game situations, DDV ain’t in that souped up territory IMHO
Brunson is the one irreplaceable guy on Knicks. Knicks kinda dead in water without him and Donovan would cover that deficiency too.
It’ll come down to what the Knicks have to pay to acquire.
Clean wrote:People clearly underestimate Mitch so much it's crazy. The Cavs are not a playoff team without him. They are top 3 in the east with him healthy. I love Donte but there are levels to this and like Martin said Mitch can carry teams in the regular season. I ignore people who talk about his defense when he has been on top defensive teams for years in Utah and on the Cavs. He solves our shot creation problem off the bench. He is a good lob passer so that helps mitch contribute on offense. There is a lot to love. The negative is he is having knee problems this year. I am always weary of knee problems.
Haha at first I was like Mitch Robinson?
martin wrote:DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:fishmike wrote:Im like the only guy who reads "Donovan" and thinks... we just dont need himI am not going to pretend DD is better than Donovan, but for the cost and roster impact Donovan is not taking us there. Much prefer Randle as the 2nd scorer and defensive terrors on the wings
I think we all see the possible redundancy in Brunson and Mitchell. I think the posters on this site have all been burned by the "Starphuch" approach and you see many of us clamoring for 3&D wings and rebounding bigs. 2-way role players.
For me, when a guy like Mitchell becomes available, I still have to pause. I mean cost matters, of course. Its a "what if we had two?"
Brunson and Mitchell just choosing who initiates based on matchup
Anunoby and Randle in the corners but cutting to the paint as needed.
iHart in the middle finding the open man.
DDV/Hart/Precious/Robinson subbing in as needed.
I understand the caution, but I would love to see Mitchell in blue and orange.
I think this is overstated tbh. Donovan is like a souped up DDV. He likes to shoot deep 3s at volume, doesn't need much setup time. He can drive and kick and they can play off each other. Donovan has always played next to scoring guards also. Used to playing with non shooting bigs etc. I think Donovan and Brunson would work just fine. Just not sure it's better than simply adding another good player because Donovan would come with substantial "subtraction" of players and picks. We see with MIL this year how that can work out sometimes. Bet they wish they could get Jrue, Grayson, and their perimeter defense back.
Donovan can also lead a team on an 17-1 run of wins during season with major injuries to key guys on his team, not something DDV could ever sniff. And he can be a breakdown closer in late game situations, DDV ain’t in that souped up territory IMHO
Brunson is the one irreplaceable guy on Knicks. Knicks kinda dead in water without him and Donovan would cover that deficiency too.
It’ll come down to what the Knicks have to pay to acquire.
Yea I think you take the "talent" every time as long as the "fit" is not like oil and water. Donovan and Brunson could win 55+ games with this cast of defenders and glue guys around them.
martin wrote:Clean wrote:People clearly underestimate Mitch so much it's crazy. The Cavs are not a playoff team without him. They are top 3 in the east with him healthy. I love Donte but there are levels to this and like Martin said Mitch can carry teams in the regular season. I ignore people who talk about his defense when he has been on top defensive teams for years in Utah and on the Cavs. He solves our shot creation problem off the bench. He is a good lob passer so that helps mitch contribute on offense. There is a lot to love. The negative is he is having knee problems this year. I am always weary of knee problems.Haha at first I was like Mitch Robinson?
I never committed to learning how to spell his first,last or nickname since he never been on the Knicks. So he is just mitch to me. Can't get that spelling wrong and once I bring up the Cavs I figured people would understand.
nycericanguy wrote:we could prob just sign DD with the MLE
No way is he that cheap.
Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:we could prob just sign DD with the MLENo way is he that cheap.
What playoff caliber team will give him more?
Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:we could prob just sign DD with the MLENo way is he that cheap.
At 35 and after wasting away his last 3-4 years on a losing team in CHI, I think he's probably looking at a situation for his legacy over more money.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:nycericanguy wrote:we could prob just sign DD with the MLENo way is he that cheap.
What playoff caliber team will give him more?
Not really sure, but does he want playoff caliber team over money ? And will he be ok possibly coming off the bench for the Knicks ?
Clean wrote:People clearly underestimate Mitch so much it's crazy. The Cavs are not a playoff team without him. They are top 3 in the east with him healthy. I love Donte but there are levels to this and like Martin said Mitch can carry teams in the regular season. I ignore people who talk about his defense when he has been on top defensive teams for years in Utah and on the Cavs. He solves our shot creation problem off the bench. He is a good lob passer so that helps mitch contribute on offense. There is a lot to love. The negative is he is having knee problems this year. I am always weary of knee problems.
i'm in this camp
this is a different level of talent that just doesn't grow on trees
we would need to find a way to make it team-wise and money-wise but c'mon this is the kind of talent injection you need (and need to make work) if you're thinking of going far
Chandler wrote:Clean wrote:People clearly underestimate Mitch so much it's crazy. The Cavs are not a playoff team without him. They are top 3 in the east with him healthy. I love Donte but there are levels to this and like Martin said Mitch can carry teams in the regular season. I ignore people who talk about his defense when he has been on top defensive teams for years in Utah and on the Cavs. He solves our shot creation problem off the bench. He is a good lob passer so that helps mitch contribute on offense. There is a lot to love. The negative is he is having knee problems this year. I am always weary of knee problems.i'm in this camp
this is a different level of talent that just doesn't grow on trees
we would need to find a way to make it team-wise and money-wise but c'mon this is the kind of talent injection you need (and need to make work) if you're thinking of going far
D Mitchell would be awesome because we can always have one of Brunson or Mitchell on the floor at all times. The concern would be who we get rid of. Dealing Donte or Hart would jeopardize the culture that’s been established here. It’s a tough situation but the Knicks only have to make the deal if it’s right.
Knixkik wrote:Chandler wrote:Clean wrote:People clearly underestimate Mitch so much it's crazy. The Cavs are not a playoff team without him. They are top 3 in the east with him healthy. I love Donte but there are levels to this and like Martin said Mitch can carry teams in the regular season. I ignore people who talk about his defense when he has been on top defensive teams for years in Utah and on the Cavs. He solves our shot creation problem off the bench. He is a good lob passer so that helps mitch contribute on offense. There is a lot to love. The negative is he is having knee problems this year. I am always weary of knee problems.i'm in this camp
this is a different level of talent that just doesn't grow on trees
we would need to find a way to make it team-wise and money-wise but c'mon this is the kind of talent injection you need (and need to make work) if you're thinking of going far
D Mitchell would be awesome because we can always have one of Brunson or Mitchell on the floor at all times. The concern would be who we get rid of. Dealing Donte or Hart would jeopardize the culture that’s been established here. It’s a tough situation but the Knicks only have to make the deal if it’s right.
I forget the verbatim quote but Thibs has one about being fond of great players. The real issue is whether DM will buy in on D. When he was a rookie his supposed calling card was D and the hope was he would find offense, get some arc on his shot. Well it took him nothing flat to find NBA offense
If we can make JB and Deuce work in the back court (which we did) then we can make this work. I just don’t know how and I love this whole squad. But i loved IQ, RJ and Quentin. as a fan base we’re not used to having talent and dealing them away. We sucked for so long we hoped w could get a silk purse for a sow’s ear (old guy saying). But we actually have talent and assets to deal — we’re just not used to it
Hopefully guys play their asses off wanting to be part of this, and not part of the trade package that yields the missing piece
P.s.
Again not sure how it could work, but which basketball junkie can forget DM and Jamal Murray (someone picked with out slot because of a trade) going toe to toe as then-alphas scorers. DM does not wilt like Julius and i have come to love Julius with all his warts. We need the anti-Melo approach of getting him on the team. C’mon guys your justified love for the current roster is clouding your visions!!!
joec32033 wrote:I tried on trade machine but I couldn't get it to work is there a way to three way Donovan to Brooklyn, Mikal to NY and picks and other goodies to Cleveland?
A lot of trade machines stop working this time of year because it's past the trade deadline. The key point is to more or less matchup salaries going in and out.
A possible framework could be:
Knicks guarantee Bojan Bogdanovic
Knicks trade BB to Cleveland (20m out) (23m in)
Nets trade Mikal to NY, DFS to Cleveland (37m out) (35m in)
Cleveland trades DM to Brooklyn (35m out)(35m in)
That gets you pretty close, enough to at least just add a minimum salary guy or two. Obviously the Knicks would have to give up a bunch of picks to make that happen. BKN too. 4 seeds don't usually go for a rebuild, so I don't see it as too likely. It probably makes more sense for NY to just trade BB for Mikal straight up and attach a bunch of picks.