Brooks and FVV were obvious overpays and Updoka has his problems, but those risks look to have paid off, especially with Green kicking into high gear.
Can’t tell what Monty and Tony Weavers over in Detroit doing.
Hopefully, the pistons make the playoffs next season
Not a fan of tanking for multiple reasons, foremost among them is you usually end up with a crap coach because who else accepts a contract to lose, who then in turn finds ways to screw up all those high picks
winning requires a lot more than getting high picks. Obviously coaches and assistant coaches matter but it really extends through the whole organization down to the people compiling film and strength and conditioning. You need people who pay attention to the details, and you need people to identify what details matter.
Hopefully Detroit can be better by 2026, so we can get a 1st round pick. I think they are one more year of experience and one more player away from being competitive. They have a lot of talent, it is just very young. But what I saw when they last played the Knicks is they can play defense. That should carry them to a 35 win season by 2026.
I think tanking can win and "retooling" can win but at some point forming a team identity is critical in the NBA. Team's without identities are rudderless ships. You need something you can hang your hat on in this league. That's why I think the "We here" season was so important for this team long term, even if it was spearheaded by a lot of journeyman vets that had no future here. It established something that would last for years to come in terms of the style of play this team would adopt under its coach. I think that's what is missing from a lot of young teams, and I think that is where Houston will get a leg up on a lot of rebuilding teams. They have a tough coach and they went after some tough vets and they have good young guys to develop concurrently. I see them trying to build a Knicks-East in a way.
martin wrote:Brooks and FVV were obvious overpays and Updoka has his problems, but those risks look to have paid off, especially with Green kicking into high gear.Can’t tell what Monty and Tony Weavers over in Detroit doing.
You can spend a couple of seasons going for the draft picks, but you need to move to phase 2 quickly in this league in order to establish culture, which is spending on winners. VanVleet and Brooks for all of their flaws are proven winners who can make a team buy in. Coaching is important but having leaders playing with you is more important. All Detroit has done is drafted BPA without fit in mind and assumed the parts would eventually come together, and it’s not that easy. Cunningham, Thompson, Ivey, and Hayes are all different versions of the same archetype; combo guards who are athletic but can’t really shoot and aren’t playmakers for others. Fit matters. It’s why Haliburton and Fox both broke out when they got away from each other. Detroit is a recent case study of how not to build a team. They didn’t even draft that bad outside of Hayes, but the pieces have no real chance to come together.
TheGame wrote:Hopefully Detroit can be better by 2026, so we can get a 1st round pick. I think they are one more year of experience and one more player away from being competitive. They have a lot of talent, it is just very young. But what I saw when they last played the Knicks is they can play defense. That should carry them to a 35 win season by 2026.
I think it’s likely.
They are going thru too much losing for their ownership and have massive cap space over next 2 seasons.
They’ve seen the Houston overpay model and think they’ll lean that way. In 2 years if they can get to a team in the 30+ games territory, that’ll be perfect for Knicks.
2025 protected thru #13, 2026 thru #11 and that should be it.
Next year gonna be tricky with Milwaukee on the cusp of age and injury. We got their pick top 4 protected for next year.
got to have smart people in the FO. And luck helps a whole lot.
I still think Hinkie's premise that franchise talent wins in the NBA still holds and a team like San Antonio with Wemby is going to win a championship before the Knicks do. Hope I'm wrong, but I've accepted, I guess, the idea that this group is going to be entertaining, give it their all but probably come up short.
I'm only pro tank if the team is just awful and there is a legit reason to tank like Wemby, Shaq, Duncan, ect. At the end it's only a 14% chance at that pick even if you have the worst record in the league.
You need lots of luck.
You look at teams like Charlotte, Detroit, Wiz, Griz, etc and it seems like they have been tanking for decades. Despite plethora of draft picks.
You then look at teams who have allegedly won FA but failed to really do much with it. Ie. Brooklyn beating Knicks with Kyrie, Durant and Harden.
Do think Culture is important. Team first players who sacrifice for good of the team.
But that don't mean much either if you don't have talent.
So really luck, talent and culture. A lot to ask and reason why it's so hard to win a chip.
SergioNYK wrote:I'm only pro tank if the team is just awful and there is a legit reason to tank like Wemby, Shaq, Duncan, ect. At the end it's only a 14% chance at that pick even if you have the worst record in the league.
To me the 14% means there’s no point in tanking for 1 prospect. It’s only luck. If you have a loaded draft class I can see doing it for a year, but otherwise building a winning culture is the most important thing. Once in awhile you get a OKC situation where you can build from the ground up, but even that situation SGA was a player they got via trade for a superstar. Most rebuilds can’t start that way.
martin wrote:Brooks and FVV were obvious overpays and Updoka has his problems, but those risks look to have paid off, especially with Green kicking into high gear.Can’t tell what Monty and Tony Weavers over in Detroit doing.
I actually like that Pistons team. I understand that its a very young team but I'm starting to think that maybe Monty isn't that good of a coach
I think tank vs develop is a great frame. Spurs are developing Wemby. Pistons tanked. Tanking results in bad habits. Development results in losses against more experienced teams while you let the game slow down for youth. Spurs are developing Wemby. Lots of losses, but man, they sacrificed Kelvin Johnson’s inefficient breakout for Wemby.
The problem with tanking is that guys forget (or don’t learn) how to play. It becomes a systemic failure. Detroit needs vets and coaching. And work ethic. But instead, Burks forgot how to play defense.
I don't know if Detroit tanked. "Tank" implies not trying or structure minutes to players without regard to objective of winning. I think they did. They just failed.
Pre Wemby spurs tanked.
Wiz? They just sucked.
Monty Williams had the kind of season that gets coaches fired if they are not in first year of massive contract. With that kind of security you also have the luxury of playing yoot and laying a foundation. They did improve as season went on and perhaps injuries mattered. Ivey shooting is an issue. Few times I saw them he reminded me of Shumpert. Uber athletic but fundamentally unsound shooting. Westbrook type??? Kid is still really young. I suggested they look at bringing in Draymond Green but he would have to elevate his temperament to be a leader. He runs the risk of blowing it up too?
There was little incentive to tanking this year.
depends on who is doing the developing.
When Thibs was hired many said he was old/antiquated/obsolete but if we have learned anything it's that the guys who stick around and earn his trust "play the right way"
Nalod wrote:I don't know if Detroit tanked. "Tank" implies not trying or structure minutes to players without regard to objective of winning. I think they did. They just failed.
Pre Wemby spurs tanked.
Wiz? They just sucked. Monty Williams had the kind of season that gets coaches fired if they are not in first year of massive contract. With that kind of security you also have the luxury of playing yoot and laying a foundation. They did improve as season went on and perhaps injuries mattered. Ivey shooting is an issue. Few times I saw them he reminded me of Shumpert. Uber athletic but fundamentally unsound shooting. Westbrook type??? Kid is still really young. I suggested they look at bringing in Draymond Green but he would have to elevate his temperament to be a leader. He runs the risk of blowing it up too?
There was little incentive to tanking this year.
Maybe they didn’t tank but they also didn’t develop. Or develop enough.
fishmike wrote:depends on who is doing the developing. When Thibs was hired many said he was old/antiquated/obsolete but if we have learned anything it's that the guys who stick around and earn his trust "play the right way"
I wish Thibs was here for Knox. I feel like he coulda had a chance. Also, imagine he was there to develop Frank like he has Deuce? No guarantees obviously, but I think things might be a little different for those guys.
DLeethal wrote:fishmike wrote:depends on who is doing the developing. When Thibs was hired many said he was old/antiquated/obsolete but if we have learned anything it's that the guys who stick around and earn his trust "play the right way"
I wish Thibs was here for Knox. I feel like he coulda had a chance. Also, imagine he was there to develop Frank like he has Deuce? No guarantees obviously, but I think things might be a little different for those guys.
I don't think they even draft those guys if Thibs is here, but Knox might have had a better chance at NBA life. Frank on the other hand probably would've remained on the bench due to his hesitation to let it fly. Thibs loves those corner threes and would've had enough of Frank passing up those open chances.
Detroit is just a James Harden max contract away from making the playoffs.
I still think the NBA should limit tanking by
a) using a two year average win total for the lottery so that teams that have a good team, but suffered an injury/injuries don't get to stack the team a la Spurs(Robinson/Tim Duncan)/Warriors(2020)
b) and repeat offenders should be penalized. If you got a top three pick last year, you don't get another one this year.
gradyandrew wrote:Detroit is just a James Harden max contract away from making the playoffs.
I think Paul George is probably the best fit for them. They need a strong two way veteran presence. I think Cade would take the best lead from him.
