Knicks · Knicks Summer League 7/12-7/24 (up next: Atlanta 6pm 7/20 ESPN) (page 4)
Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.
I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player. 
Seriously, I think the NBA will consider some sort of Max player exception on the salary cap down the line. Parity is nice, but that's gonna go away eventually when smaller markets begin feeling the crunch too. We're already kinda seeing it with Denver.
BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.
Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.
Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!
Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!
That was a long post and I won't be tackling everything because that will take more time than I want to commit but you made one glaringly wrong point. Did you say the Bucks have not suffered? The roster is old, injury prone and expensive with no ways to improve. What major moves have they made this off season? None, because the rules make that extremely hard. This is why we had to do our all in trade very soon or we would be in the same situation where the trade will be made way harder due to the apron rules.
To lay out their situation as simply as possible
- They are old
- Injury Prone
- Expensive
- No tradeable 1sts until 2031
- 152mil to Middleton, Gianns, Brook and Dame alone
- 2nd apron team
- Repeater Tax team(5 seasons in a row)
- can not aggregate contracts
- can't take more money back
- can't send cash.
- Their trade exceptions are frozen.
- They also have restrictions on their vet min signings.
Do you still think they have not suffered?
Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!That was a long post and I won't be tackling everything because that will take more time than I want to commit but you made one glaringly wrong point. Did you say the Bucks have not suffered? The roster is old, injury prone and expensive with no ways to improve. What major moves have they made this off season? None, because the rules make that extremely hard. This is why we had to do our all in trade very soon or we would be in the same situation where the trade will be made way harder due to the apron rules.
To lay out their situation as simply as possible
- They are old
- Injury Prone
- Expensive
- No tradeable 1sts until 2031
- 152mil to Middleton, Gianns, Brook and Dame alone
- 2nd apron team
- Repeater Tax team(5 seasons in a row)
- can not aggregate contracts
- can't take more money back
- can't send cash.
- Their trade exceptions are frozen.
- They also have restrictions on their vet min signings.
Do you still think they have not suffered?
No. They retooled with Dame. Small market team with two bonafide stars. My point was small market team suffering because they located there. I was countering that the CBA levels the playing field.
To your point, they did not execute success for all reasons you mentioned. They were like 30-15 when they fired Griffin and hired Rivers for big money they ate, and paid. Small "suffering" teams that are cash strapped don't do that.
Or pay that kind of money for coming talent. "Suffering?", true, but not because they are small market. they are suffering because they failed to execute the plan.
Appreciate the convo!!!!
Nalod wrote:Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!That was a long post and I won't be tackling everything because that will take more time than I want to commit but you made one glaringly wrong point. Did you say the Bucks have not suffered? The roster is old, injury prone and expensive with no ways to improve. What major moves have they made this off season? None, because the rules make that extremely hard. This is why we had to do our all in trade very soon or we would be in the same situation where the trade will be made way harder due to the apron rules.
To lay out their situation as simply as possible
- They are old
- Injury Prone
- Expensive
- No tradeable 1sts until 2031
- 152mil to Middleton, Gianns, Brook and Dame alone
- 2nd apron team
- Repeater Tax team(5 seasons in a row)
- can not aggregate contracts
- can't take more money back
- can't send cash.
- Their trade exceptions are frozen.
- They also have restrictions on their vet min signings.
Do you still think they have not suffered?
No. They retooled with Dame. Small market team with two bonafide stars. My point was small market team suffering because they located there. I was countering that the CBA levels the playing field.
To your point, they did not execute success for all reasons you mentioned. They were like 30-15 when they fired Griffin and hired Rivers for big money they ate, and paid. Small "suffering" teams that are cash strapped don't do that.
Or pay that kind of money for coming talent. "Suffering?", true, but not because they are small market. they are suffering because they failed to execute the plan.
Appreciate the convo!!!!
The Dame deal came before the penalties. There was a grace period. This offseason is when the real CBA is fully implemented. Now is when the real pain starts. Thinking about it the Dame deal would not even be possible this offseason because of the new rules for 2nd apron teams.
Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!That was a long post and I won't be tackling everything because that will take more time than I want to commit but you made one glaringly wrong point. Did you say the Bucks have not suffered? The roster is old, injury prone and expensive with no ways to improve. What major moves have they made this off season? None, because the rules make that extremely hard. This is why we had to do our all in trade very soon or we would be in the same situation where the trade will be made way harder due to the apron rules.
To lay out their situation as simply as possible
- They are old
- Injury Prone
- Expensive
- No tradeable 1sts until 2031
- 152mil to Middleton, Gianns, Brook and Dame alone
- 2nd apron team
- Repeater Tax team(5 seasons in a row)
- can not aggregate contracts
- can't take more money back
- can't send cash.
- Their trade exceptions are frozen.
- They also have restrictions on their vet min signings.
Do you still think they have not suffered?
No. They retooled with Dame. Small market team with two bonafide stars. My point was small market team suffering because they located there. I was countering that the CBA levels the playing field.
To your point, they did not execute success for all reasons you mentioned. They were like 30-15 when they fired Griffin and hired Rivers for big money they ate, and paid. Small "suffering" teams that are cash strapped don't do that.
Or pay that kind of money for coming talent. "Suffering?", true, but not because they are small market. they are suffering because they failed to execute the plan.
Appreciate the convo!!!!
The Dame deal came before the penalties. There was a grace period. This offseason is when the real CBA is fully implemented. Now is when the real pain starts. Thinking about it the Dame deal would not even be possible this offseason because of the new rules for 2nd apron teams.
Could be wrong but the Dame deal happened during the grace period but also after the future CBA terms and structure was announced. Bucks likely knew the future implications and penalties downstream of bringing in Dame and his $60M plus future salary before they traded for him. They are suffering because they traded for an aging star (adding to an aging roster) who is injury prone and does not play defense instead of realizing they needed to try and get younger. They did not manage to the upcoming rules and also mismanaged the coaching situation by first parting with Bud. It seems to have very little to do with being a smaller market team.
foosballnick wrote:Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:Clean wrote:Nalod wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:Clean wrote:I am thinking a lot of people are going to get squeezed out with the new CBA. Teams are going to start thinking twice about who they spend big money on when those penalties start hitting. The exception being Det who somehow still gave pretty good money to Tobias.I remember Austin Rivers saying that the NBA's middle class would get squeezed in the new CBA. Of course, people dismissed because what would Austin Rivers know about being a middle class player.
Yet Indy retooled well, SAC is still rising, MIlwaukee has not suffered with two HOF star, etc.
Seems the smaller market teams are doing quite well.Denver got a chip and ran it back another year but did not really improve. Other teams did. I don't see them as small market, not with Kroneke money.
Detroit sucks but that was not financial. What small market teams are suffering due to financial constraints?
OKC was able to trade for Paul George, (small mkt to small mkt), got huge money, give it a try with HOF long time Thunder player Westbrook!
OKC also had money to steal our center after finishing tied for 1st out west.
Minny's issues are not "small market" based. They swung for the fences and after two years are staring down the rules and implications of doing so. I'd say they are a year or two left but need some tweaking. Its why KAT might be traded. Thats a big contract.
Middle Class players getting squeezed has been an issue for some time in some form or another. Thing is the star players don't walk often. New CBA actually was designed to level the playing field.Trent read the market wrong. Toronto gave him a very good offer and he "believed in himself" and thought he should get a raise. DDV comps did not help. Buddy Heild did not help. Both for different reasons. DDV signed for 5 yrs 50mil and outplayed his contract. Hield has for the most part had nice deal but played under it. Trent Jr showed they can lose with him and his defense was lacking despite good shooting numbers. In a world were Kelly Oubre played for little last year, that also did not help Trents comps.
Small markets play by same rules and when the big market team money runs out the talent can ooze over the others.
With a level playing field teams have to be smarter. knicks got smarter. Money is being spend on FO's and coaching even in small markets. Good trades like Indy/Hali benefited both. ATL retooled its FO and is proactive in its restructure rather than double down with more money spent. Detroit spent big on coaching and new FO. Adding Vets too!That was a long post and I won't be tackling everything because that will take more time than I want to commit but you made one glaringly wrong point. Did you say the Bucks have not suffered? The roster is old, injury prone and expensive with no ways to improve. What major moves have they made this off season? None, because the rules make that extremely hard. This is why we had to do our all in trade very soon or we would be in the same situation where the trade will be made way harder due to the apron rules.
To lay out their situation as simply as possible
- They are old
- Injury Prone
- Expensive
- No tradeable 1sts until 2031
- 152mil to Middleton, Gianns, Brook and Dame alone
- 2nd apron team
- Repeater Tax team(5 seasons in a row)
- can not aggregate contracts
- can't take more money back
- can't send cash.
- Their trade exceptions are frozen.
- They also have restrictions on their vet min signings.
Do you still think they have not suffered?
No. They retooled with Dame. Small market team with two bonafide stars. My point was small market team suffering because they located there. I was countering that the CBA levels the playing field.
To your point, they did not execute success for all reasons you mentioned. They were like 30-15 when they fired Griffin and hired Rivers for big money they ate, and paid. Small "suffering" teams that are cash strapped don't do that.
Or pay that kind of money for coming talent. "Suffering?", true, but not because they are small market. they are suffering because they failed to execute the plan.
Appreciate the convo!!!!
The Dame deal came before the penalties. There was a grace period. This offseason is when the real CBA is fully implemented. Now is when the real pain starts. Thinking about it the Dame deal would not even be possible this offseason because of the new rules for 2nd apron teams.Could be wrong but the Dame deal happened during the grace period but also after the future CBA terms and structure was announced. Bucks likely knew the future implications and penalties downstream of bringing in Dame and his $60M plus future salary before they traded for him. They are suffering because they traded for an aging star (adding to an aging roster) who is injury prone and does not play defense instead of realizing they needed to try and get younger. They did not manage to the upcoming rules and also mismanaged the coaching situation by first parting with Bud. It seems to have very little to do with being a smaller market team.
Exactly correct. They chose to be in cap hell with an old and injury prone roster. The wonderful thing about the Cap god is everything we have been doing was planned ahead of time. I said it before but the contracts that cost less as the years go on is what kept us under the aprons and allowed us to make the team we have today. The only mistake was 2 year deal for iHart. I can live with that though.