Knicks · Fun idea: Mitch Deuce pick for Ivey Duren (page 2)

Nalod wrote:I see the Duran video and its to be assumed he won't or can't improve?
Can we compile 25 min of Mitch bad plays? These videos can be very influential both ways.
Watch a half our of Mitch take FT's will be awful.
I think the trade hypothetical is about looking forward. Fans often look backwards and remember the good of our player, and look for reasons to not look forward at players who have yet to prove themselves. If those player were proven they'd be more more expensive or not available at all.
Reality is we might trade players we like if we to win a chip. Deuce? Perhaps if one thinks about it Josh hart is redundant now that Mikal is rostered. Blasphemy to even say such a thing, right? Josh is a bench player. No, Im not suggesting we move him!

So the question is are you willing to trade Miles McBride, Mitchell Robinson, 2025 DET first-round pick, multiple future second-round picks on the hope that Duran's defensive IQ will greatly improve?

Lots of people made a similar bet that James Wisemans IQ would improve and so far it has not. In my opinion, there are some things that are hard for a player to greatly improve on. Their IQ and their motor. I am not saying it has never or will never happen. I am saying the odds are so low it is not worth the gamble unless the risks are also low.

Clean wrote:

Nalod wrote:I see the Duran video and its to be assumed he won't or can't improve?
Can we compile 25 min of Mitch bad plays? These videos can be very influential both ways.
Watch a half our of Mitch take FT's will be awful.
I think the trade hypothetical is about looking forward. Fans often look backwards and remember the good of our player, and look for reasons to not look forward at players who have yet to prove themselves. If those player were proven they'd be more more expensive or not available at all.
Reality is we might trade players we like if we to win a chip. Deuce? Perhaps if one thinks about it Josh hart is redundant now that Mikal is rostered. Blasphemy to even say such a thing, right? Josh is a bench player. No, Im not suggesting we move him!

So the question is are you willing to trade Miles McBride, Mitchell Robinson, 2025 DET first-round pick, multiple future second-round picks on the hope that Duran's defensive IQ will greatly improve?

Lots of people made a bet on James Wiseman IQ would improve and so far it has not. In my opinion, there are some things that are hard for a player to greatly improve on. Their IQ and their motor. I am not saying it has never or will never happen. I am saying the odds are so low it is not worth the gamble unless the risks are also low.

And the risk of running with Mitch getting hurt is not good.
For all we know knicks FO and coaching are looking at tape and shaking their heads thinking Duran is an idiot and have moved on. Or, they called Monty Williams or other who knows him made inquiry to details and impressions.
All those takes on video from all years or just last year?

Clean, those are legit questions and we all need to have a take, right? Mine is open minded. I said even before knicks film school/Katz said "Waiver wire might yield a player". Its logical, but its also after half the season plays out. I used Capella as an example. I'd think he is a trade chip presently and won't be available for some time.

Plus Mitch and Deuce are the last two drafted players here and I want then to stick around and see this journey unfold. Especially Mitch.

Looking at upside, youth, and future flexibility, this trade works in our favor. Trading with poorly run teams is always a good idea. Thibs has done a nice job developing younger guys, and I’m sure he could turn Ivy into a star here.

Deuce is a tough loss; his defense is elite. However, with DDV coming off the bench, his playing time would be limited, and Travis will get some minutes.

It’s a tough one to wrap your head around. It’s interesting, but McBride isn’t scared.

It’s a toss up.

Deuce and Det getting their pick back should be enough for Duren.

I would feel good about a Mitch/Duren center duo.

Like: Deuce for a backup center. Deuce and a first for a capable starting center. Any deal moving Mitch, Deuce and a first should be solidifying the C and back C positions with long term starting potential.

Locked in a cheap contract but can easily be locked in a 26min per game role. The pieces said in the deal sold individually hold more value than what were getting back.

martin wrote:Knicks get younger and fit into the second apron. Doesn't address backup C but it's something

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The Knicks have been a hot topic this offseason. They gave up a boatload of draft picks to get Mikal Bridges from Brooklyn and are bringing back OG Anunoby, giving the title contenders one of the best wing duos in the NBA. That move, though, also puts New York in jeopardy of being hard-capped at the first apron, which, by all accounts, isn’t something the team is interested in.

The Knicks need to shed about $4.3 million to avoid this. Detroit can capitalize on this given its remaining financial flexibility while still addressing needs in the process.

Here is what a trade would have to look like to, potentially, satisfy both sides:

Pistons receive Mitchell Robinson, Miles McBride, a 2025 first-round pick (via Detroit) and multiple future seconds
Knicks receive Jalen Duren and Jaden Ivey

I’m sure some Pistons fans will hate this and some will love it, but it does allow both sides to meet their objective. For Detroit, it gets both a proven rim protector at the center spot in Robinson and a backup point guard in McBride. Most importantly, the Pistons get back their future first-rounder that makes it very, very hard and puts them at a disadvantage if they were to consider a trade for a top-30-ish player in the very near future. Giving up Duren and Ivey would be tough, as both players still have upside, but the Pistons have to consider giving them extensions next summer, and Langdon didn’t draft either one.

For New York, this trade sheds $6.5 million in salary, so the financial goal is met. Additionally, per league sources, the Knicks were very interested in Ivey during the 2022 NBA Draft and nearly traded for him. A move like this would allow the Knicks to have some young, lottery-pick prospects in the pipeline who can also contribute right now.

I’ve seen others around the web pooh poohing this deal and knocking Duren D but I would go Gaga over this. Give Thibs 22 year old Duren to mold into great defensive system and allow Ivey some freedom in key bench role

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

Ivey has the potential to be an all star.
But......its on Bickerstaff to figure it out. He has not been a good fit next to Cade, but does that mean he'll never be a good fit? Never ever?
He a PG? Or they have not figured it out yet?

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

If Donte wasn't on the team then it would make perfect sense. As it stands now with Mikal, Donte & Hart there wouldn't be enough mins available to him outside of the 14 mins per at backup PG. Deuce himself may be out of the rotation when the team is fully healthy. Ivey will be making $8mil and then $10mil over the next 2 seasons before due an extension. Which we would probably end up doing an Obi deal and trading him for 2-3 2nd round picks or a late first. He wont be happy with a limited role when hes trying to get paid. And we won't be happy with the assets given up for the limited role he will play.

Ivey makes more sense if we had enough mins to give him at backup PG/SG locking him in that IQ role for the next 5+ years. But as it stands were better off developing Kolek to be that 14min guy behind Brunson. Whose role will grow long term as it becomes tougher to keep Donte financially.

Nalod wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

Ivey has the potential to be an all star.
But......its on Bickerstaff to figure it out. He has not been a good fit next to Cade, but does that mean he'll never be a good fit? Never ever?
He a PG? Or they have not figured it out yet?

I wouldnt mind finding out if Ivey can be a legit backup PG in NY. Maybe the heir apparent to Brunson down the road. Dont see Deuce being that guy.

Not trying to shortchange the improvement McBride made last season, but he was mostly looking for his own shot. And we dont have a real plan B for the times when JB is hurt. Might be worth it to develop Ivey into a PG who fits the bill.

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

If Donte wasn't on the team then it would make perfect sense. As it stands now with Mikal, Donte & Hart there wouldn't be enough mins available to him outside of the 14 mins per at backup PG. Deuce himself may be out of the rotation when the team is fully healthy. Ivey will be making $8mil and then $10mil over the next 2 seasons before due an extension. Which we would probably end up doing an Obi deal and trading him for 2-3 2nd round picks or a late first. He wont be happy with a limited role when hes trying to get paid. And we won't be happy with the assets given up for the limited role he will play.

Ivey makes more sense if we had enough mins to give him at backup PG/SG locking him in that IQ role for the next 5+ years. But as it stands were better off developing Kolek to be that 14min guy behind Brunson. Whose role will grow long term as it becomes tougher to keep Donte financially.

Thats true, DDV can fill in, in a pinch. But I like the idea of a Ivey/Donte backourt in the second unit. If Brunson is hurt, we wouldnt lose his instant offense ability, because DDV is busy running the offense, with Brunson out.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

If Donte wasn't on the team then it would make perfect sense. As it stands now with Mikal, Donte & Hart there wouldn't be enough mins available to him outside of the 14 mins per at backup PG. Deuce himself may be out of the rotation when the team is fully healthy. Ivey will be making $8mil and then $10mil over the next 2 seasons before due an extension. Which we would probably end up doing an Obi deal and trading him for 2-3 2nd round picks or a late first. He wont be happy with a limited role when hes trying to get paid. And we won't be happy with the assets given up for the limited role he will play.

Ivey makes more sense if we had enough mins to give him at backup PG/SG locking him in that IQ role for the next 5+ years. But as it stands were better off developing Kolek to be that 14min guy behind Brunson. Whose role will grow long term as it becomes tougher to keep Donte financially.

Thats true, DDV can fill in, in a pinch. But I like the idea of a Ivey/Donte backourt in the second unit. If Brunson is hurt, we wouldnt lose his instant offense ability, because DDV is busy running the offense, with Brunson out.

Thinking about what you're saying about minutes. We had to give mega-minutes to some players because we were short-handed. We just might be better off having not enough minutes to go around for some parts of the regular season, than being shorthanded, and overplaying guys.

We've gone some seasons with 4-5 PGs on the roster (pre-Thibs) and injuries forced us to play every one of them. Having that insurance going into a playoff run could be crucial.

martin wrote:Regarding a hypothetical Mitch for Duren.

Mitch just finished his 6 season and somehow has gotten worse in FT % every year and was 40% last year. From the fucking ft line, Jesus Mitch stop throwing fast balls at the rim.

As much as Mitch can single-handedly dominate a playoff series, he is also pretty accessible to be exactly one wrong step from missing the rest of a season or career. That should dominate a GM’s thoughts?

Duren shot 80% from the FT last year at Mitch’s highest volume for a year and that was a massive jump in accuracy. I have no clue if that’ll translate to other shot areas.

Duren has been a much better rebounder at same age as Mitch. I don’t know if that is just volume or what.

In 2 years Mitch will be UFA and Duren will an incredibly small cap hold and restricted.

There is a very real risk Mitch is not available to play at any time next year OR would be such a FT liability during playoffs he would not get playing time at a key moment because of that, ie more potential unavailability.

When you weigh those things, does it change your outlook over more than just next year?

Duren would/should be the smarter long term play?

Mitch ain’t getting much better offensively. What is Duren’s defensive and shooting ceiling?

And what would Thibs potentially do with 22 year old Duren to mold as defensive anchor?

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:Regarding a hypothetical Mitch for Duren.

Mitch just finished his 6 season and somehow has gotten worse in FT % every year and was 40% last year. From the fucking ft line, Jesus Mitch stop throwing fast balls at the rim.

As much as Mitch can single-handedly dominate a playoff series, he is also pretty accessible to be exactly one wrong step from missing the rest of a season or career. That should dominate a GM’s thoughts?

Duren shot 80% from the FT last year at Mitch’s highest volume for a year and that was a massive jump in accuracy. I have no clue if that’ll translate to other shot areas.

Duren has been a much better rebounder at same age as Mitch. I don’t know if that is just volume or what.

In 2 years Mitch will be UFA and Duren will an incredibly small cap hold and restricted.

There is a very real risk Mitch is not available to play at any time next year OR would be such a FT liability during playoffs he would not get playing time at a key moment because of that, ie more potential unavailability.

When you weigh those things, does it change your outlook over more than just next year?

Duren would/should be the smarter long term play?

Mitch ain’t getting much better offensively. What is Duren’s defensive and shooting ceiling?

And what would Thibs potentially do with 22 year old Duren to mold as defensive anchor?

Not like 24 year old iHart was this polished when he got here. If money talks, he went from 8mm a year to 30.
or,,

Find out what Duran "Didn't do" in Detroit and decipher that?
And maybe he is not the guy. Thats on FO and coaches to decide. We fans, we got the easy part!

Nalod wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:Regarding a hypothetical Mitch for Duren.

Mitch just finished his 6 season and somehow has gotten worse in FT % every year and was 40% last year. From the fucking ft line, Jesus Mitch stop throwing fast balls at the rim.

As much as Mitch can single-handedly dominate a playoff series, he is also pretty accessible to be exactly one wrong step from missing the rest of a season or career. That should dominate a GM’s thoughts?

Duren shot 80% from the FT last year at Mitch’s highest volume for a year and that was a massive jump in accuracy. I have no clue if that’ll translate to other shot areas.

Duren has been a much better rebounder at same age as Mitch. I don’t know if that is just volume or what.

In 2 years Mitch will be UFA and Duren will an incredibly small cap hold and restricted.

There is a very real risk Mitch is not available to play at any time next year OR would be such a FT liability during playoffs he would not get playing time at a key moment because of that, ie more potential unavailability.

When you weigh those things, does it change your outlook over more than just next year?

Duren would/should be the smarter long term play?

Mitch ain’t getting much better offensively. What is Duren’s defensive and shooting ceiling?

And what would Thibs potentially do with 22 year old Duren to mold as defensive anchor?

Not like 24 year old iHart was this polished when he got here. If money talks, he went from 8mm a year to 30.
or,,

Find out what Duran "Didn't do" in Detroit and decipher that?
And maybe he is not the guy. Thats on FO and coaches to decide. We fans, we got the easy part!

I think you and I are agreeing Nalod but not sure.

I certainly would be thrilled with Duren's potential and Ivey gravy on top BUT have no idea why Detroit would swap these 2 for Mitch/Deuce unless they covet their pick back.

GustavBahler wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:My concern with Deuce is that he's played more as an SG from the point, than a PG. I believe Ivey has a better shot of developing into a good backup PG, which we've needed for a while.

If Donte wasn't on the team then it would make perfect sense. As it stands now with Mikal, Donte & Hart there wouldn't be enough mins available to him outside of the 14 mins per at backup PG. Deuce himself may be out of the rotation when the team is fully healthy. Ivey will be making $8mil and then $10mil over the next 2 seasons before due an extension. Which we would probably end up doing an Obi deal and trading him for 2-3 2nd round picks or a late first. He wont be happy with a limited role when hes trying to get paid. And we won't be happy with the assets given up for the limited role he will play.

Ivey makes more sense if we had enough mins to give him at backup PG/SG locking him in that IQ role for the next 5+ years. But as it stands were better off developing Kolek to be that 14min guy behind Brunson. Whose role will grow long term as it becomes tougher to keep Donte financially.

Thats true, DDV can fill in, in a pinch. But I like the idea of a Ivey/Donte backourt in the second unit. If Brunson is hurt, we wouldnt lose his instant offense ability, because DDV is busy running the offense, with Brunson out.

Thinking about what you're saying about minutes. We had to give mega-minutes to some players because we were short-handed. We just might be better off having not enough minutes to go around for some parts of the regular season, than being shorthanded, and overplaying guys.

We've gone some seasons with 4-5 PGs on the roster (pre-Thibs) and injuries forced us to play every one of them. Having that insurance going into a playoff run could be crucial.

The issue is the assets given up would be as if Ivey was the PG of the future. Essentially 2 1st round picks worth of value. Outside of injury he won't be put in position to match the value we gave up for him. Drafting Collier & Kolek while using Deuce for other needs would of been better asset management. Than giving up both Deuce and a first for Ivey for the limited role. And you have him for 2 years max because you can't pay him his new contract. Possibly one if your trying to get max value out of moving him.

LivingLegend wrote:

Nalod wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

martin wrote:Regarding a hypothetical Mitch for Duren.

Mitch just finished his 6 season and somehow has gotten worse in FT % every year and was 40% last year. From the fucking ft line, Jesus Mitch stop throwing fast balls at the rim.

As much as Mitch can single-handedly dominate a playoff series, he is also pretty accessible to be exactly one wrong step from missing the rest of a season or career. That should dominate a GM’s thoughts?

Duren shot 80% from the FT last year at Mitch’s highest volume for a year and that was a massive jump in accuracy. I have no clue if that’ll translate to other shot areas.

Duren has been a much better rebounder at same age as Mitch. I don’t know if that is just volume or what.

In 2 years Mitch will be UFA and Duren will an incredibly small cap hold and restricted.

There is a very real risk Mitch is not available to play at any time next year OR would be such a FT liability during playoffs he would not get playing time at a key moment because of that, ie more potential unavailability.

When you weigh those things, does it change your outlook over more than just next year?

Duren would/should be the smarter long term play?

Mitch ain’t getting much better offensively. What is Duren’s defensive and shooting ceiling?

And what would Thibs potentially do with 22 year old Duren to mold as defensive anchor?

Not like 24 year old iHart was this polished when he got here. If money talks, he went from 8mm a year to 30.
or,,

Find out what Duran "Didn't do" in Detroit and decipher that?
And maybe he is not the guy. Thats on FO and coaches to decide. We fans, we got the easy part!

I think you and I are agreeing Nalod but not sure.

I certainly would be thrilled with Duren's potential and Ivey gravy on top BUT have no idea why Detroit would swap these 2 for Mitch/Deuce unless they covet their pick back.

The pick is a big part of it no doubt. Makes no sense for them otherwise.
As mentioned if they control the pick its a good trade asset for them.