Knicks · Starbury Back in the house? (page 2)
Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah had a rostered salaried that was 40% MORE THEN THE SECOND HIGHEST ROSTER AND WON JUST 23 GAMES!!!
Traded for Eddy Curry who the Bulls were trying to retire due to a heart irregularity and it was so bad they were two high lottery picks! He hired Larry Brown. Dumb. Larry was awful, but its on the him.PhilC: Layden in 4.3 seasons winning % was .492. Yes he inherited a decent team but it he had to trade Ewing and had no money to spend or picks.
Isiah had picks and money to spend. Very different circumstance. Dolan was gettin heat from fans to do something. He wanted to starphuch with Magic Johnson but got Isiah instead.Isiah wining % was.368 in 5 years.
Don't tell us Layden was much worse. If so explain. both sucked. Isiah had some decent picks. Ariza was a good one. Then he traded him for steve Francis and made him team captain. The kid was drinking his way out of the league!!! Layden hired Don Chaney. Don was OK and was limited by a really bad roster. He won 50 and then 48 games. he had inherited gimpy H20, surley mad as hell Spree, and had to dump Ewing. Orthella harrington, Weaterspoon, the not so great Charlie ward: Here you go...https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea... Anderson and Eisley were big misses. Lee Nailon!!!! Laydens next two years knnicks won 30, then 37 games. Layden thought Anderson and Eisley were ready for bigger roles. Nope.
He drafted one player of with a about the only pick worth a damn, 2003 Mike Sweetney. BTW, that was Lebrons Draft!!! After the top 5, it was a shit draft.
Layden did not really wiff on players that went after. https://www.basketball-reference.com/dra...
Other rookies rostered in he Layden Era: Frank Williams, Larvar Postal, Demarco Johnson, and of course Mirsad Turkan!!!!!!
Nothing. Shit picks with shit draft positions.Layden was left with little to work with after the starphuch hang over by a late decade run that yielded finals run in 1999. Remember Camby fell apart in 2000. He had a really bad family thing and he was hurt alot. JVG held it together then bailed despondent.
He had a shit roster in part from Ewing getting that last monster contract by scared owner who meddled. Had he not fired Earnie JVG would have been fired and we would have had a modern roster. Instead Dolan kept JVG who had an aging roster in a league that was starting to run. Layden was tasked as a neophyte to cater to his starphuch whims. It was awful. I stand by the Mcdyess deal born from a starphuching owner and on paper was a good idea actually but proved to be a disaster!Im not defending Layden. Im defending accuracy. Knick fans here deserve to not read lazy ass shit. new fans not familiar with the era and come here need to be informed.
PhilC, this is how you do it. Not be lazy and say stupid shit. Layded sucked. Isiah was worse.
I agree that Layden was probably forced by Dolan to make those moves, but you also gotta admit that Isiah was also likely forced to make the Larry Brown hire. It makes way too much sense. It was reported that before their Knicks tenure that they didn’t really like each other. We also know that Dumars is his guy and Joe knew the headache that Larry was so it’s safe to say he warned Isiah not to do it. I have a hard time believing that Isaiah would just ignore him. On the other hand, Mike Woodson was not only an assistant with Detroit, but he was also an Indiana University guy like Isiah. It makes way too much sense that he would have wanted and preferred Woodson instead of Larry. Based on what we saw with how Woodson Handle JR Smith, I think we could conclude that he probably would’ve been the perfect coach for Marbury and everything would’ve turned out different.
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah had a rostered salaried that was 40% MORE THEN THE SECOND HIGHEST ROSTER AND WON JUST 23 GAMES!!!
Traded for Eddy Curry who the Bulls were trying to retire due to a heart irregularity and it was so bad they were two high lottery picks! He hired Larry Brown. Dumb. Larry was awful, but its on the him.PhilC: Layden in 4.3 seasons winning % was .492. Yes he inherited a decent team but it he had to trade Ewing and had no money to spend or picks.
Isiah had picks and money to spend. Very different circumstance. Dolan was gettin heat from fans to do something. He wanted to starphuch with Magic Johnson but got Isiah instead.Isiah wining % was.368 in 5 years.
Don't tell us Layden was much worse. If so explain. both sucked. Isiah had some decent picks. Ariza was a good one. Then he traded him for steve Francis and made him team captain. The kid was drinking his way out of the league!!! Layden hired Don Chaney. Don was OK and was limited by a really bad roster. He won 50 and then 48 games. he had inherited gimpy H20, surley mad as hell Spree, and had to dump Ewing. Orthella harrington, Weaterspoon, the not so great Charlie ward: Here you go...https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea... Anderson and Eisley were big misses. Lee Nailon!!!! Laydens next two years knnicks won 30, then 37 games. Layden thought Anderson and Eisley were ready for bigger roles. Nope.
He drafted one player of with a about the only pick worth a damn, 2003 Mike Sweetney. BTW, that was Lebrons Draft!!! After the top 5, it was a shit draft.
Layden did not really wiff on players that went after. https://www.basketball-reference.com/dra...
Other rookies rostered in he Layden Era: Frank Williams, Larvar Postal, Demarco Johnson, and of course Mirsad Turkan!!!!!!
Nothing. Shit picks with shit draft positions.Layden was left with little to work with after the starphuch hang over by a late decade run that yielded finals run in 1999. Remember Camby fell apart in 2000. He had a really bad family thing and he was hurt alot. JVG held it together then bailed despondent.
He had a shit roster in part from Ewing getting that last monster contract by scared owner who meddled. Had he not fired Earnie JVG would have been fired and we would have had a modern roster. Instead Dolan kept JVG who had an aging roster in a league that was starting to run. Layden was tasked as a neophyte to cater to his starphuch whims. It was awful. I stand by the Mcdyess deal born from a starphuching owner and on paper was a good idea actually but proved to be a disaster!Im not defending Layden. Im defending accuracy. Knick fans here deserve to not read lazy ass shit. new fans not familiar with the era and come here need to be informed.
PhilC, this is how you do it. Not be lazy and say stupid shit. Layded sucked. Isiah was worse.
I agree that Layden was probably forced by Dolan to make those moves, but you also gotta admit that Isiah was also likely forced to make the Larry Brown hire. It makes way too much sense. It was reported that before their Knicks tenure that they didn’t really like each other. We also know that Dumars is his guy and Joe knew the headache that Larry was so it’s safe to say he warned Isiah not to do it. I have a hard time believing that Isaiah would just ignore him. On the other hand, Mike Woodson was not only an assistant with Detroit, but he was also an Indiana University guy like Isiah. It makes way too much sense that he would have wanted and preferred Woodson instead of Larry. Based on what we saw with how Woodson Handle JR Smith, I think we could conclude that he probably would’ve been the perfect coach for Marbury and everything would’ve turned out different.
You may be right. Its very illogical to have hired Larry as he did. Isiah carried a lot of juice then and after despite the Anucha civil suit. Dolan let him run the liberty for goodness sake!!! Talk about tone deaf. Larry was known to make trades or just bother his FO until they relented anyway. We talking about a very pain in the ass dude, but one that won everywhere except in NY!!
Even weirder was the way Larry was forced out. The "lock out", the roadside media thing, and that Stern had to mediate the way it ended.
Recall then Dolan forced Isiah to coach the team. Like sticking a dogs nose in his poop. It was like he was punishing him for all his fuckups.
I agree it was such an illogical hire there had to be something "Forcing him" but Isiah made so many other illogical roster mistakes. He used the bottomless pit of money a team could spend then. If one can fathom Dolan forcing Layden into getting McDyess then perhaps the starphuch of Larry Brown, fresh from two trips to the finals I suppose anything is possible!
Who sucked worse? Isiah or Layden? Layden has limited to some extent if a goal was to rebuild long term which meant letting contracts expire and not trade picks.
It was to be expected the team would fall back when that happened. I recall the media blitz on Dolan was intense. Isiah took that and ramped it up to epic proportions (salary cap overage) and made it worse. He showed no patience.
Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah had a rostered salaried that was 40% MORE THEN THE SECOND HIGHEST ROSTER AND WON JUST 23 GAMES!!!
Traded for Eddy Curry who the Bulls were trying to retire due to a heart irregularity and it was so bad they were two high lottery picks! He hired Larry Brown. Dumb. Larry was awful, but its on the him.PhilC: Layden in 4.3 seasons winning % was .492. Yes he inherited a decent team but it he had to trade Ewing and had no money to spend or picks.
Isiah had picks and money to spend. Very different circumstance. Dolan was gettin heat from fans to do something. He wanted to starphuch with Magic Johnson but got Isiah instead.Isiah wining % was.368 in 5 years.
Don't tell us Layden was much worse. If so explain. both sucked. Isiah had some decent picks. Ariza was a good one. Then he traded him for steve Francis and made him team captain. The kid was drinking his way out of the league!!! Layden hired Don Chaney. Don was OK and was limited by a really bad roster. He won 50 and then 48 games. he had inherited gimpy H20, surley mad as hell Spree, and had to dump Ewing. Orthella harrington, Weaterspoon, the not so great Charlie ward: Here you go...https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea... Anderson and Eisley were big misses. Lee Nailon!!!! Laydens next two years knnicks won 30, then 37 games. Layden thought Anderson and Eisley were ready for bigger roles. Nope.
He drafted one player of with a about the only pick worth a damn, 2003 Mike Sweetney. BTW, that was Lebrons Draft!!! After the top 5, it was a shit draft.
Layden did not really wiff on players that went after. https://www.basketball-reference.com/dra...
Other rookies rostered in he Layden Era: Frank Williams, Larvar Postal, Demarco Johnson, and of course Mirsad Turkan!!!!!!
Nothing. Shit picks with shit draft positions.Layden was left with little to work with after the starphuch hang over by a late decade run that yielded finals run in 1999. Remember Camby fell apart in 2000. He had a really bad family thing and he was hurt alot. JVG held it together then bailed despondent.
He had a shit roster in part from Ewing getting that last monster contract by scared owner who meddled. Had he not fired Earnie JVG would have been fired and we would have had a modern roster. Instead Dolan kept JVG who had an aging roster in a league that was starting to run. Layden was tasked as a neophyte to cater to his starphuch whims. It was awful. I stand by the Mcdyess deal born from a starphuching owner and on paper was a good idea actually but proved to be a disaster!Im not defending Layden. Im defending accuracy. Knick fans here deserve to not read lazy ass shit. new fans not familiar with the era and come here need to be informed.
PhilC, this is how you do it. Not be lazy and say stupid shit. Layded sucked. Isiah was worse.
I agree that Layden was probably forced by Dolan to make those moves, but you also gotta admit that Isiah was also likely forced to make the Larry Brown hire. It makes way too much sense. It was reported that before their Knicks tenure that they didn’t really like each other. We also know that Dumars is his guy and Joe knew the headache that Larry was so it’s safe to say he warned Isiah not to do it. I have a hard time believing that Isaiah would just ignore him. On the other hand, Mike Woodson was not only an assistant with Detroit, but he was also an Indiana University guy like Isiah. It makes way too much sense that he would have wanted and preferred Woodson instead of Larry. Based on what we saw with how Woodson Handle JR Smith, I think we could conclude that he probably would’ve been the perfect coach for Marbury and everything would’ve turned out different.
You may be right. Its very illogical to have hired Larry as he did. Isiah carried a lot of juice then and after despite the Anucha civil suit. Dolan let him run the liberty for goodness sake!!! Talk about tone deaf. Larry was known to make trades or just bother his FO until they relented anyway. We talking about a very pain in the ass dude, but one that won everywhere except in NY!!
Even weirder was the way Larry was forced out. The "lock out", the roadside media thing, and that Stern had to mediate the way it ended.
Recall then Dolan forced Isiah to coach the team. Like sticking a dogs nose in his poop. It was like he was punishing him for all his fuckups.
I agree it was such an illogical hire there had to be something "Forcing him" but Isiah made so many other illogical roster mistakes. He used the bottomless pit of money a team could spend then. If one can fathom Dolan forcing Layden into getting McDyess then perhaps the starphuch of Larry Brown, fresh from two trips to the finals I suppose anything is possible!Who sucked worse? Isiah or Layden? Layden has limited to some extent if a goal was to rebuild long term which meant letting contracts expire and not trade picks.
It was to be expected the team would fall back when that happened. I recall the media blitz on Dolan was intense. Isiah took that and ramped it up to epic proportions (salary cap overage) and made it worse. He showed no patience.
I could be wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Liberty gig was Dolan’s way of apologizing to Isiah for ignoring his warning on Larry Brown. That was also at a time that Woodson just finished a successful stint as Knicks coach. Plus in a weird way Isiah actually redeemed himself since the Liberty actually won a championship. Anyways, both Layden and Isiah sucked so it’s not even worth talking about anymore. I would rather just imagine we went straight from the Ewing era to the Brunson era.
KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah had a rostered salaried that was 40% MORE THEN THE SECOND HIGHEST ROSTER AND WON JUST 23 GAMES!!!
Traded for Eddy Curry who the Bulls were trying to retire due to a heart irregularity and it was so bad they were two high lottery picks! He hired Larry Brown. Dumb. Larry was awful, but its on the him.PhilC: Layden in 4.3 seasons winning % was .492. Yes he inherited a decent team but it he had to trade Ewing and had no money to spend or picks.
Isiah had picks and money to spend. Very different circumstance. Dolan was gettin heat from fans to do something. He wanted to starphuch with Magic Johnson but got Isiah instead.Isiah wining % was.368 in 5 years.
Don't tell us Layden was much worse. If so explain. both sucked. Isiah had some decent picks. Ariza was a good one. Then he traded him for steve Francis and made him team captain. The kid was drinking his way out of the league!!! Layden hired Don Chaney. Don was OK and was limited by a really bad roster. He won 50 and then 48 games. he had inherited gimpy H20, surley mad as hell Spree, and had to dump Ewing. Orthella harrington, Weaterspoon, the not so great Charlie ward: Here you go...https://www.basketball-reference.com/tea... Anderson and Eisley were big misses. Lee Nailon!!!! Laydens next two years knnicks won 30, then 37 games. Layden thought Anderson and Eisley were ready for bigger roles. Nope.
He drafted one player of with a about the only pick worth a damn, 2003 Mike Sweetney. BTW, that was Lebrons Draft!!! After the top 5, it was a shit draft.
Layden did not really wiff on players that went after. https://www.basketball-reference.com/dra...
Other rookies rostered in he Layden Era: Frank Williams, Larvar Postal, Demarco Johnson, and of course Mirsad Turkan!!!!!!
Nothing. Shit picks with shit draft positions.Layden was left with little to work with after the starphuch hang over by a late decade run that yielded finals run in 1999. Remember Camby fell apart in 2000. He had a really bad family thing and he was hurt alot. JVG held it together then bailed despondent.
He had a shit roster in part from Ewing getting that last monster contract by scared owner who meddled. Had he not fired Earnie JVG would have been fired and we would have had a modern roster. Instead Dolan kept JVG who had an aging roster in a league that was starting to run. Layden was tasked as a neophyte to cater to his starphuch whims. It was awful. I stand by the Mcdyess deal born from a starphuching owner and on paper was a good idea actually but proved to be a disaster!Im not defending Layden. Im defending accuracy. Knick fans here deserve to not read lazy ass shit. new fans not familiar with the era and come here need to be informed.
PhilC, this is how you do it. Not be lazy and say stupid shit. Layded sucked. Isiah was worse.
I agree that Layden was probably forced by Dolan to make those moves, but you also gotta admit that Isiah was also likely forced to make the Larry Brown hire. It makes way too much sense. It was reported that before their Knicks tenure that they didn’t really like each other. We also know that Dumars is his guy and Joe knew the headache that Larry was so it’s safe to say he warned Isiah not to do it. I have a hard time believing that Isaiah would just ignore him. On the other hand, Mike Woodson was not only an assistant with Detroit, but he was also an Indiana University guy like Isiah. It makes way too much sense that he would have wanted and preferred Woodson instead of Larry. Based on what we saw with how Woodson Handle JR Smith, I think we could conclude that he probably would’ve been the perfect coach for Marbury and everything would’ve turned out different.
You may be right. Its very illogical to have hired Larry as he did. Isiah carried a lot of juice then and after despite the Anucha civil suit. Dolan let him run the liberty for goodness sake!!! Talk about tone deaf. Larry was known to make trades or just bother his FO until they relented anyway. We talking about a very pain in the ass dude, but one that won everywhere except in NY!!
Even weirder was the way Larry was forced out. The "lock out", the roadside media thing, and that Stern had to mediate the way it ended.
Recall then Dolan forced Isiah to coach the team. Like sticking a dogs nose in his poop. It was like he was punishing him for all his fuckups.
I agree it was such an illogical hire there had to be something "Forcing him" but Isiah made so many other illogical roster mistakes. He used the bottomless pit of money a team could spend then. If one can fathom Dolan forcing Layden into getting McDyess then perhaps the starphuch of Larry Brown, fresh from two trips to the finals I suppose anything is possible!Who sucked worse? Isiah or Layden? Layden has limited to some extent if a goal was to rebuild long term which meant letting contracts expire and not trade picks.
It was to be expected the team would fall back when that happened. I recall the media blitz on Dolan was intense. Isiah took that and ramped it up to epic proportions (salary cap overage) and made it worse. He showed no patience.I could be wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Liberty gig was Dolan’s way of apologizing to Isiah for ignoring his warning on Larry Brown. That was also at a time that Woodson just finished a successful stint as Knicks coach. Plus in a weird way Isiah actually redeemed himself since the Liberty actually won a championship. Anyways, both Layden and Isiah sucked so it’s not even worth talking about anymore. I would rather just imagine we went straight from the Ewing era to the Brunson era.
Its not unreasonable assumption but this article does debunk the notion that Thomas was part of Liberty success.
Dolan did like Thomas for some reason. Even after AnuchaGate. League was not happy with Dolan which is why Walsh was bought in.
One thing, Liberty have never one a chip.
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/128...
https://www.complex.com/sports/a/contact...
Kind of forgot just how bad Dolan was defying league and it was good cause to hate him given knicks losing ways and he is being a dick a lot.
GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah’s off the court antics like the stuff that came out in the sexual harassment lawsuit was definitely icing on the cake. But as a GM Layden was just as bad if not worse — Isiah just happened to be around for a longer period of time. The Houston contract, trading a still young Marcus Camby and a draft pick that could have been an 18 year old Amare for broke knee McDyess. Trading Spree for Van Horn. Weatherspoon. The guy was a mess.
Now I’ll let Nalod write a 52 paragraph essay in response about how Layden was misunderstood
Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Philc1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:I think we were all disappointed with Steph’s time here, but it wasn’t all his fault. When he first got here our starting lineup was:Doleac (a stretch 5)
Kurt Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
MarburyWhen we had that lineup he was thriving, why? Because he had a bunch of guys that could catch and shoot. They didn’t need the ball to be effective and it was giving him all of that spacing. He was thriving with that team. Problem is that Houston came back too soon from his surgery that he had in the summer. Then Isiah traded all the catch & shoot hustle guys away for non-shooting ball stoppers that clogged the paint. Then it all culminated with the Larry Brown hiring.It really is that simple.
Had Allan Houston recovered from injury and we never did the Eddy Curry trade, we could have kept our picks to draft Lamarcus Aldridge instead. I know history probably would have changed if we didn’t do the Curry trade, but imagine if we had Frye/ Aldridge/Ariza/Houston/steph. That lineup would have complimented his skillset much better than what we had.
That is the team we should have had instead of the Larry Brown mess. Btw, I once saw in an interview that Isiah did that he didn’t actually want Larry Brown. Allegedly Joe Dumars told him that unless you had a championship team already in place that Brown was a huge headache that wasn’t worth it. Instead he recommended that Isiah hire Detroit assistant Mike Woodson because he was ready to be a head coach for an upcoming team. Isiah said that the MSG higher ups were in Dolan’s ear and convinced him to get Larry Brown instead. That decision sealed Marbury’s fate because Woodson would have been the perfect coach for him. Then again, had Woodson guided him to some successful playoff runs then that amazing China experience probably never happens so it was probably for the best.
I agree. The Isiah thing was so bad from day one. The first thing he did was overpay for Marbury and handed him the keys to the team. Marbury was not a good steward of what he was given responsibility for.
Not hoping we gonna see a lot of Marbury. I appreciate he is a knick fan despite his exile and perhaps he has matured and accepts whats on him. Melo seems to have come to grips with things. Thing is Marbury never had a grip on things. His testimony during the Anucha civil suit vs Isiah was epic! The hours long broadcast were he eating vaseline, and who could forget "we Youthier now"!Oh, the memories of a brain dead NY legend!!!
Isiah shouldn't have traded Doleac and KVH. Marbury and Doleac had a very effective PNR going, and Doleac was a very good defensive big man. Watched him play with the Magic, surprised a lot of Knicks fans at how good his interior defense was.
KVH was Mr. Softee until he joined the Knicks. I "hated" him more than any other NBA player, next to Greg Ostertag. But he was a legit two way player with the Knicks.
Isiah wanted to put his own stamp on the team, chemistry be dammed.
Isiah was a horrible GM but Scott Leyden was even worse. Leyden just wasn’t around as long and was more low key. But then again, Layden couldn’t speak in public so there’s that.
I’d say as bad as Layden was, Isiah was worse for what he did not only to the team’s competitiveness, but what he also did to the franchise’s reputation off the court.
One reason why Leon is such a good team president is that he built on what Perry did as GM Kept good, young, players, stockpiled draft picks. Kept the game plan of not going for the quick fix like Isiah did. Didn’t sign over the hill stars to bloated contracts. Didn’t overpay for promising young players like Isiah did with Eddie Curry.
The roster now is Leon’s, he put his stamp on the team, without gutting it prematurely. It was done organically. He had some whiffs like all NBA execs, but none so big that they sunk the team’s chances at contending like Isiah did with Eddie Curry. How long did it take to get past that fiasco?
Isiah’s off the court antics like the stuff that came out in the sexual harassment lawsuit was definitely icing on the cake. But as a GM Layden was just as bad if not worse — Isiah just happened to be around for a longer period of time. The Houston contract, trading a still young Marcus Camby and a draft pick that could have been an 18 year old Amare for broke knee McDyess. Trading Spree for Van Horn. Weatherspoon. The guy was a mess.
Now I’ll let Nalod write a 52 paragraph essay in response about how Layden was misunderstood
I outlined it. 4.3 vs 5 years. winning record. you forgot how camby got soft here before he resurrected elsewhere, and no context that you can pick in hindsight with years of date. When faced with facts you double down dumb.