Knicks · DING DING DING Its December 15th the Unofficial Start of Trade Season (page 1)
Detroit dipped under the cap. That could be interesting for the Knicks in trade scenarios.
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Rookie wrote:Knicks need scoring in the second unit or possibly a PF for the starting unit so Josh can move to the bench and OG can slide over to the Wing giving us better size and rebounding at the 4. Landry Shamet could be on the way so that sort of fixes the 2nd unit plus the baby Knicks looks to be developing so…..Santa, please give me a 6’10” athletic Forward who can rebound and score..Detroit dipped under the cap. That could be interesting for the Knicks in trade scenarios.
basically you want Jules back?
good to ask but not sure what Santa has in store. Have to figure in about 45 days we get Mitch back and for now we are nice at the 4th spot.
Can we stay there or climb? Sure, more is better.
I have to factor one of our starters will get hit with injury of some duration/Severarity. We been pretty fortunate thus far.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5992089...
NBA trade season is near, but you may not see all the deals you want
Fred Katz
Let’s upgrade the Milwaukee Bucks.
Giannis Antetokounmpo is playing like an MVP. Damian Lillard has picked up his production. But the veteran Bucks will want to add defensive reinforcements on the perimeter or an extra shooter. And come Dec. 15, most players who signed with new teams this past summer will become eligible to be traded.
Adding to the Bucks, however, is easier said than done.
Milwaukee is above the collective bargaining agreement’s dreaded second apron, a payroll threshold where the most expensive teams sit. Three other squads — the Phoenix Suns, Minnesota Timberwolves and Boston Celtics — join the Bucks there. Being above that $188.9 million threshold leaves the Bucks with limited options for moves.
Those four squads aren’t allowed to execute trades where they take in more money than they give out. They can’t “aggregate” players in deals, pairing more than one player together in the same trade. They can’t use trade exceptions and can’t send out cash. They can’t sign players who previously made more than the midlevel exception on the buyout market.
And it’s not just new rules that hurt the Bucks’ ability to hunt for an upgrade. The only tradeable second-rounder in their pocket is their 2031 selection. The others are already gone.
So, what are they to do? The Bucks could still flip Pat Connaughton and that lonely second-rounder for another quality player. But upgrading is not nearly as easy as in years past — and not just for teams above that second apron. A convoluted CBA will ensure most trades follow an endless list of needlessly complicated logistics.
It’s possible major moves will occur before the Feb. 6 trade deadline. But it’s also possible that trade season is quiet because of these restrictions. Here is why:
More teams are limited than ever
Those four teams above the second apron aren’t the only ones limited in what types of trades they can make. Three teams are hard-capped at the second apron, unable to go above $188.9 million in total payroll under any circumstances. A couple of those teams, the Denver Nuggets and New York Knicks, are within shouting distance of that threshold. The Knicks are only half a million dollars short.
Fifteen more teams are hard-capped at the first apron, a $178.1 million threshold for this season, with fewer but still constricting restrictions. Teams above the first apron cannot take in more money than they send out in trades and cannot use the full midlevel exception ($12.8 million).
Other teams, such as the Los Angeles Lakers, are not hard-capped but are still operating as if they are. The Lakers are a mere $30,000 short of the second apron, meaning they can’t add payroll in a trade.
It’s not just the Lakers who will think hard before adding salary, even if they are technically allowed to do so. Fourteen franchises are currently in the luxury tax, set this season at $170.8 million. Not everyone will stay there.
The Cleveland Cavaliers are only $1.3 million into the luxury tax and could try a minor move to dip below it. If you can dump a 15th man to avoid the tax (putting off the CBA’s repeater tax in the process), you do it. The LA Clippers are $1.5 million above the tax. The short-handed Pelicans, who may be on the phones aplenty if they don’t make a run starting yesterday, are only $1.6 million over it and won’t finally pay the tax for a team that’s languishing in the Western Conference. The Dallas Mavericks are $3.1 million above the tax. (Realistically, teams have until the trade deadline to get their books in order.)
On the other side are teams that won’t want to take on money because they are too close to the tax and under no circumstances could justify going into it. The Brooklyn Nets, Atlanta Hawks, Indiana Pacers and Memphis Grizzlies are all within $2 million of the tax. That’s less than a veteran’s minimum contract. The Sacramento Kings are $2.1 million short of the tax line. The Portland Trail Blazers are $3.7 million away, and the Chicago Bulls are $4.5 million away. Technically, those teams are allowed to add money. But realistically, it’s not happening, which will affect the rest of the league.
First-apron restrictions
For all the talk of the second apron, the biggest change in this new CBA comes in an edit of the first apron, which always existed. It used to be that teams above the first apron could not acquire players via sign-and-trade or use the nontaxpayer midlevel exception. Now, those teams also cannot take back more money than they send out in trades.
Nine teams are above the first apron right now. None of those teams can make deals with each other directly, as any realistic NBA trade requires someone to add salary. More than ever there will be additional calls for third teams to help facilitate deals that once could have required only two.
But there is one way the league has encouraged in-season swaps: the midlevel exception, which used to be only a free-agency exception, can now also be a trade exception, meaning teams can use it to absorb a player who makes up to $12.8 million without having to match salaries for that player.
For example, let’s say the Lakers and Nuggets, who are both above the first apron but below the second, want to make a trade, but the Lakers aim to bring back $2 million more than they’re sending out in the deal. Los Angeles and Denver could add a third team, a place for the Lakers to send someone who makes more than $2 million, increasing their total outgoing money in the deal and making it legal.
That third team could use the midlevel exception to absorb the salary without sending any in return. But because so many teams are restricted, either because they are hard-capped or because of their own economics, it’s not as easy to find that third team in-season.
Squads like the Blazers and Hawks, the ones within shouting distance of the luxury tax, will not add consequential salary. Meanwhile, most of the teams who could absorb salary dumps already employ the maximum 15 players on their roster, meaning they would have to cut someone to do the trade.
The Knicks and Timberwolves, who are both above the second apron, got around these restrictions when they made the Karl-Anthony Towns trade, but other organizations could not replicate their strategy today. To make the money work, the Knicks signed-and-traded three low-salary players to the Charlotte Hornets, turning the trade into a three-teamer. But teams cannot sign-and-trade players in-season.
There is another obstacle too. Teams receiving salary dumps aren’t just Good Samaritans. They’ll want sweeteners to make it worth their while, a few second-round picks or cash to help with a new player’s salary. But the Bucks, Timberwolves, Hawks, Nuggets, Rockets, Pelicans, Suns, Kings and Jazz are strapped. And those four teams over the second apron are not allowed to send cash.
Teams aren’t scared of free agency
Why haven’t we heard anyone dare to mention Myles Turner’s future?
Turner hits free agency after this season and is playing as well as ever despite Indiana’s early struggles. He is the most-common type of guy to find in trade rumors: An expiring, two-way player in his prime who would fit into any type of ecosystem, on a team that isn’t living up to expectations. But Indiana is not dangling Turner, according to league sources, and that may not change.
The dumpster fire that is the Eastern Conference standings may never convince the Pacers they’re out of it. But players like Turner not becoming obviously available is about more than just postseason hopes. It’s also because, even if Turner’s contract expires at the end of the season, Indiana can reasonably convince itself that it is Turner’s best free-agent option.
Because of the new restrictions, front offices are much more uneasy about handing out big free-agent money to non-stars. In fact, once salary gets above $25 million or so, players who aren’t top-of-the-line ones become difficult to send anywhere. Look at what’s gone on with Brandon Ingram in New Orleans or Zach LaVine in Chicago. They are two former All-Stars still in their 20s, and they’re both as good as ever. But there hasn’t been any traction in trading either because teams don’t want to clog up their books.
A player taking his contract to free agency isn’t the threat it was years ago.
Next summer, only five teams project to have meaningful cap space, though some could create room with a move or two. None of the five are dominant: The Nets, Washington Wizards, Charlotte Hornets, Spurs and Detroit Pistons. There is a world where most or all of those teams use their space to take in unwanted contracts just to load up on extra assets. Even if the Nets used their many first-round picks to trade for a star this summer, they still would have fellow center Nic Claxton locked up for another three seasons. The Spurs, of course, have Victor Wembanyama at the five.
Turner may be free to sign with whomever he wants, but there’s a realistic chance he won’t want any of the options, and those options won’t deem a 28-year-old center as their target when they are not at that stage of roster building. So as long as the Pacers want to bring back their longtime center, they have a decent shot at doing so.
The risk of losing Turner next summer isn’t as high as it appears on its face. And that means the rush to deal him also isn’t as urgent.
Unlikely incentives
The Nets’ Cam Johnson appears to be the ideal trade candidate.
As of Dec. 13, he’s averaging 18.8 points per game and draining 43 percent of almost eight 3s a game for the plucky Nets, who are a pain to play. But Brooklyn is down to inflict a little more pain on itself.
When the Nets traded Mikal Bridges this past summer, they made another move in conjunction, reacquiring the rights to their 2025 first-round pick, which they had previously sent to Houston in a years-old trade for James Harden. Finally, the Nets possessed full control of their first-rounder.
Despite being in the Play-In mix in the East, Brooklyn seems bound to trade away its vets — especially Dorian Finney-Smith and Dennis Schröder, who are both on expiring deals. And then there’s Johnson, who has two years remaining after this one with reasonable salaries ($21.6 million and $23.6 million).
There is, however, an issue: In 2024-25, in addition to his $23.6 million salary, Johnson has $3.4 million in “unlikely bonuses” as part of his deal, a technical term that defines incentives written into a contract that the player did not accomplish the previous season.
Unlikely incentives don’t count against the salary cap or luxury tax. If a player never reaches those numbers, the money never comes. But unlikely incentives do count against the hard cap. And 18 teams now are hard-capped, with four more already above the second apron. Not all of those teams are pushing right up against it, but for some, making salaries work then accounting for the extra $3.4 million that counts against the hard cap is an impossible task.
For example, the Golden State Warriors, who are hard-capped at the first apron and sit just $533,ooo below it, would make basketball sense for Johnson. The salaries of the injured De’Anthony Melton, Gary Payton II and one of their young, minimum guys (say, Gui Santos) add up to $219,000 more than what Johnson makes, meaning the Warriors should be able to trade those three plus draft capital to make it worth Brooklyn’s time.
But those unlikely incentives kill the deal. The Warriors would need to add another $2.7 million to the trade. That could mean including someone important whom they don’t want to give up. It could mean adding two more end-of-the-bench guys, but that would turn this potential swap into a five-for-one, which is not realistic considering Brooklyn would have to cut four players.
Johnson isn’t the only guy in this situation. The Wizards’ Kyle Kuzma is under contract for two more seasons after this one, and his salary declines year over year. But he also has $3 million of unlikely incentives this season.
Nalod wrote:Rookie wrote:Knicks need scoring in the second unit or possibly a PF for the starting unit so Josh can move to the bench and OG can slide over to the Wing giving us better size and rebounding at the 4. Landry Shamet could be on the way so that sort of fixes the 2nd unit plus the baby Knicks looks to be developing so…..Santa, please give me a 6’10” athletic Forward who can rebound and score..Detroit dipped under the cap. That could be interesting for the Knicks in trade scenarios.
basically you want Jules back?
good to ask but not sure what Santa has in store. Have to figure in about 45 days we get Mitch back and for now we are nice at the 4th spot.
Can we stay there or climb? Sure, more is better.I have to factor one of our starters will get hit with injury of some duration/Severarity. We been pretty fortunate thus far.
Who…….? Oh Randle. Already saw the movie and bought the popcorn. I want the trophy wife version - you know - younger, taller, more athletic and about 30lbs lighter.
https://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy-basketb...
Tiers 5, 6 & 7 have players we could target
martin wrote:Man, the cap logistics seem like it could freeze out a lot of maneuvering
For sure. We don't have much wiggle room and I have to assume Deuce and Josh Hart are not on the table.
Neither Precious or Payne unless their expiring nets us upgrade.
I think we rolling with this team unless we are really firing on all cylinders then perhaps we ramp of for a playoff push.
If not, I think we roll as is. Which, is really not bad btw.
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I think the goal was to play him into having some value. I dont think anyone is trading just for him, but hopefully he has value in a package.
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His ultimate conclusion is a 3 team deal that sends Mitch to Sacramento, Keon Ellis to Minnesota, and the Knicks wind up with Trey Lyles and Nickeil Alexander Walker.
Reasoning is NAW's upcoming free agency is limiter for Minnesota who is over the 2nd apron. Ellis is on a rookie scale deal and can replace his production. Kings need center depth and the Knicks get the 3 and D wing they need from the bench - though it probably is a rental for them
I like NAW, but dont really see the angle for all the teams.
I agree about adding depth to the second unit. If it was doable, I wouldnt mind trading for Butler, and bringing the 35 yr old, off the bench. Considering we already have one of the best offenses in the league, I dont believe he would make a fuss about it.
Butler is known for elevating his game in the post-season, and Im sure Thibs would be happy to see him on the roster again. Havent heard of any lingering grudges from Butler's time in Minny. Butler knows when it comes to a ring, the time is now.
tell me how do the knicks who are over the 1st apron, going to even come close to fitting that in? Brock Aller is good, but I think we hard pressed to figure that out.
yeah,I bet Thibs would love to bring Jimmy off the bench.
Take a stab at it. Im all for it.
Point taken on the cap eating contract. Two years (at most) would only take up part of our window with JB/KAT, whatever happens.
From what Ive read, the Rockets look like the destination. But Butler could be our (pricey) X-factor.
GustavBahler wrote:35 year old Butler is averaging 19/6/5 on 55% FG shooting, and 35 pct from 3 in 32 minutes per game. Getting that kind of production off the bench could be enough to get us past Boston. Not to mention the clutch factor.Point taken on the cap eating contract. Two years (at most) would only take up part of our window with JB/KAT, whatever happens.
From what Ive read, the Rockets look like the destination. But Butler could be our (pricey) X-factor.
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Word on street --- teams offering multiple future year 3RD ROUND picks for Jericho.
I'm talking someone who can stalk a primary ball handler full-court and someone with good positional size (can guard at least 1-3).
GustavBahler wrote:35 year old Butler is averaging 19/6/5 on 55% FG shooting, and 35 pct from 3 in 32 minutes per game. Getting that kind of production off the bench could be enough to get us past Boston. Not to mention the clutch factor.Point taken on the cap eating contract. Two years (at most) would only take up part of our window with JB/KAT, whatever happens.
From what Ive read, the Rockets look like the destination. But Butler could be our (pricey) X-factor.
Gustav, less eggnog! Or even more alcohol, one of the 2. Gotta get the mix just right.