Knicks · What's wrong with our defense (page 1)

This is the second part of the " what's wrong.." series. The first addressed offense. Let's take a look at what's missing on d.

1) Boxing out. There is no excuse. I don't care who we play, I don't care who is hurt, healthy etc. Our boxing out is not good. It's not Championship caliber, it's not even playoff caliber. Clyde always says that boxing out is a lost art. Well, we need to learn to do it. Hartenstein was a box out master. It's not possible to be top 10 on D without elite boxing out. I don't care who gets the rebounds, it could be Brunson or Bridges for all I care. No excuse, period.

2) We need to stop leaving guys open on the perimeter. This happened like 3 times or more against the Celtics. Yeah, I know they spread the floor. That's not the point. When there is a guy wiiiiiiiide open( yes, we missed a rotation)but we just look at him and not even make an attempt to run out towards him, this is pathetic. It gives shooters who are in a slump extra confidence and it's the opposite of what defense actually is. Thibs should instantly bench whoever is just looking at his man shoot a 3 without even trying to close out.

3) This is more of an additional point, the main problems are the #1 and #2. Mitchell Robinson. This idea was brought up by Richard Jefferson during the Celtics game(I personally dislike R Jefferson for some unknown reason. Maybe it dates back to NJ Nets and that team with Kidd that always killed us, but whatever) Once Mitch comes back we should be able to play up on guys more. Although I don't think it will matter as much against the Celtics since they play 5-out.

The Celtics will always be able to matchup hunt us as long as KAT and Brunson are in the game. We can't really hide them. Maybe KAT versus Horford? That matchup just sucks for us.

tired.

Our defense without OG and/or Mitch suffers. I think the better question is what will the defense look like with healthy players when we need a stop. Wingstop + MitchBeast will be a handful.

OG our best perimeter defender and Mitch our best low post defender both out

Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

Yep, 3pt D has been a problem for a few seasons. Mitch will help, maybe a new philosophy on defense will help as well. One that emphasizes 3pt D.

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

It's a major problem. The last 2 years in the playoffs, the Heat and Pacers were able to work open a wide open 3 at will on every possession if they wanted to. Our defense against teams like that is just literally hoping they'll miss wide open 3's.

I think Thibs is a good developer of players but a trash in-game coach and schemer.

We reacting to Celtic loss and now its bring back all the bad JuJu that starts with Thibs outperforming his roster then we get sad at the end.
WE can't handle disappointment.

What's wrong? Well like most teams if you don' have your best players on the court you don't win chips. Add OG to our list. He is not our best player, but him and Brunson are the most important.

This is the NBA. If a team gets hot from long range, they win. In a 7 games series perhaps not so.
not sure where we go this year, but its more fun then what's going on in Philly.

Bingo in todays NBA The team that has a higher 3PT% in a game wins 69% of the time. 77% when home, 60% when away. That’s how important it is to defend the 3 . Bring back hand checking !!

What’s wrong with our defense? Before it was:

What’s wrong with our offense?

The answers to both is simple.

1. We have bad defensive players at two of the most critical positions in basketball. The 1 and 5. Think about it. Thibs took this team far with Elf and Mitch. Two defensive minded downhill players with bully ball downhill Randle and a defensive minded coach to match. Elf, Mitch, Randle, RJ (and others who are no longer here) play at the rim. Thats synergy between coach and roster.

2. This current roster has offensive minded jump shooting players at the 1 and 5. Even worse, majority of the roster are jump shooting players. Build an offense around jump shooters, you get offensive inconsistency play. This roster would needs the best and most consistent jump shooters or a mix of downhill players. The key is will Thibs play them or continue to lean on his high profile starters. Which I understand. But it’s still a problem and it’s a mis-match. Can’t assume a definitive minded coach can get the most out of an inconsistent jump shooting offensive minded team.
That’s a mis-match.

If our jumpers ain’t falling. And we allows their jumpers to fall. We lose. I don’t care who we play.

OG and Mitch coming back will help but also hurt. They will come back and we will start winning games and Thibs will get all the glory. Leon will be praised. But that only mask the heart of the problem.

Roster missing a few key players. Leon has work to do to find key players that improves the team and Thibs will play. That’s a tuff balancing act.

blkexec wrote:What’s wrong with our defense? Before it was:

What’s wrong with our offense?

The answers to both is simple.

1. We have bad defensive players at two of the most critical positions in basketball. The 1 and 5. Think about it. Thibs took this team far with Elf and Mitch. Two defensive minded downhill players with bully ball downhill Randle and a defensive minded coach to match. Elf, Mitch, Randle, RJ (and others who are no longer here) play at the rim. Thats synergy between coach and roster.

2. This current roster has offensive minded jump shooting players at the 1 and 5. Even worse, majority of the roster are jump shooting players. Build an offense around jump shooters, you get offensive inconsistency play. This roster would needs the best and most consistent jump shooters or a mix of downhill players. The key is will Thibs play them or continue to lean on his high profile starters. Which I understand. But it’s still a problem and it’s a mis-match. Can’t assume a definitive minded coach can get the most out of an inconsistent jump shooting offensive minded team.
That’s a mis-match.

If our jumpers ain’t falling. And we allows their jumpers to fall. We lose. I don’t care who we play.

OG and Mitch coming back will help but also hurt. They will come back and we will start winning games and Thibs will get all the glory. Leon will be praised. But that only mask the heart of the problem.

Roster missing a few key players. Leon has work to do to find key players that improves the team and Thibs will play. That’s a tuff balancing act.

Knicks definitely missing their downhill guys

Josh has to shoot or create activity on offense if he is gonna have to play out there with Precious. BTW in those lineups KAT has to shoot from deep even more.

Nice look at the Precious linueup. Short story, Precious is not Mitch.

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/...

5-Man Lineup

Brunson, Bridges, Hart, Anunoby & Achiuwa: 107.1 OFFRTG, 112.2 DEFRTG, -5.1 NET

With an even 100 minutes on their ledger, this is the third most used five-man lineup after the starting five and the four perimeter starters plus Jericho Sims. Given the results, I expect it to see about as many minutes over the rest of the season as the Sims group.

While my preseason estimation of this roster was accurate in most respects, one area I was dead wrong concerns Precious Achiuwa, who I thought would help Knick bench units resemble those of recent vintage. For the last few years, New York’s bench couldn’t keep up with the offensive output of the starters, but they more than made up for it with exceptional defense. I figured the switchability of Achiuwa at the five would help keep this trend going.

It hasn’t been the case. According to Cleaning the Glass, the defensive rating of the starters with Precious at center is actually worse than with KAT at center1. The offense, meanwhile, falls off a cliff when Towns is off the court, as you might expect.

Digging a little deeper, lineups with Precious at the five are hemorrhaging shot attempts in the restricted area, allowing teams to take over 36 percent of their shots from this zone - more than the league-worst Pelicans’ defense. Part of this number stems from the inordinate amount of putback attempts that Achiuwa-at-center lineups are allowing: 22.4 percent of opponents’ missed shots result in a second opportunity, which ranks in the fifth percentile league-wide.

Because the rim is so accessible, Knick defenders have sagged off of shooters to an untenable degree, resulting in a 41.4 percent make rate from deep for opponents - far worse than the worst team in the league.

homeskillitprigioni wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

It's a major problem. The last 2 years in the playoffs, the Heat and Pacers were able to work open a wide open 3 at will on every position if they wanted to. Our defense against teams like that is just literally hoping they'll miss wide open 3's.

I think Thibs is a good developer of players but a trash in-game coach and schemer.

I think the philosophy had more merit in previous years, where we sacrificed 3s but we were elite at the rim and rebounding. Now we are no longer any good defending inside, aren't very good rebounding team, and still are awful guarding the 3.

We are just not a good defensive team and have a hard time making up for it on offense against the truly elite squads.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's hard for me to picture this lineup being a championship caliber lineup as currently constructed. It's very very good, but big red flags holding us back from becoming elite. In my opinion the only answer is probably Josh Hart eventually becoming a supersub, and getting the right player in the starting lineup to shift OG back to the 3, and allow KAT to play more hybrid 4/5. Someone that will help the defense more than Hart does. And Hart becomes Andre Igoudala supersub off the bench for us.

Josh is an amazing hustle guy but when I watch the game he might be our weakest link on perimeter defense. He's always hunting boards which would make sense as to why he's always late on rotating to shooters. For this team to reach it's next form he might be the guy who needs to move to the bench, he can play multiple positions and fits in every lineup. He's a great supersub player. And if were searching for a better 4/5 to play with KAT and solidify the defense the odds of finding a guy who also can spread the floor is much harder. And we see in the Precious / Hart lineups you can't really have two guys that don't want to shoot 3s in the lineup.

GustavBahler wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

Yep, 3pt D has been a problem for a few seasons. Mitch will help, maybe a new philosophy on defense will help as well. One that emphasizes 3pt D.

Mitch will help because right now our guys have to give help D to the on ball defender by default because we don’t have a rim protector. KAT is not a rim protector and Precious is 6’8

reality is we might be a year away... the Hartenstein loss is really the toughest in terms of value. Hopefully Mitch's return can mitigate that.

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

Yep, 3pt D has been a problem for a few seasons. Mitch will help, maybe a new philosophy on defense will help as well. One that emphasizes 3pt D.

Mitch will help because right now our guys have to give help D to the on ball defender by default because we don’t have a rim protector. KAT is not a rim protector and Precious is 6’8

We’ve seen this movie before with Mitch. Defenders press up on shooters, which puts pressure on Mitch to step up and leaves the rim wide open for centers to catch lobs and offensive rebounds.

We need better on ball defenders and a defensive scheme that fits the players and not the other way around. Trying to fit a square inside a circle is a bad approach. But that’s what we are seeing.

And agree, the reality may be this starting 5 is a year or 2 away from being championship ready.

blkexec wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Our 3 point defense is basically last in the league. That's the elephant in the room. There's really nothing I can see that can fix that for us this year. Maybe more Mitch in the paint allowing perimeter guys to stay tight on their guys, but that seems like wishful thinking.

Yep, 3pt D has been a problem for a few seasons. Mitch will help, maybe a new philosophy on defense will help as well. One that emphasizes 3pt D.

Mitch will help because right now our guys have to give help D to the on ball defender by default because we don’t have a rim protector. KAT is not a rim protector and Precious is 6’8

We’ve seen this movie before with Mitch. Defenders press up on shooters, which puts pressure on Mitch to step up and leaves the rim wide open for centers to catch lobs and offensive rebounds.

We need better on ball defenders and a defensive scheme that fits the players and not the other way around. Trying to fit a square inside a circle is a bad approach. But that’s what we are seeing.

And agree, the reality may be this starting 5 is a year or 2 away from being championship ready.

That's gonna be tough because the obvious defensive upgrades are our two best players. I don't what scheme we can use to cover for KAT.

blkexec wrote:What’s wrong with our defense? Before it was:

What’s wrong with our offense?

The answers to both is simple.

1. We have bad defensive players at two of the most critical positions in basketball. The 1 and 5. Think about it. Thibs took this team far with Elf and Mitch. Two defensive minded downhill players with bully ball downhill Randle and a defensive minded coach to match. Elf, Mitch, Randle, RJ (and others who are no longer here) play at the rim. Thats synergy between coach and roster.

2. This current roster has offensive minded jump shooting players at the 1 and 5. Even worse, majority of the roster are jump shooting players. Build an offense around jump shooters, you get offensive inconsistency play. This roster would needs the best and most consistent jump shooters or a mix of downhill players. The key is will Thibs play them or continue to lean on his high profile starters. Which I understand. But it’s still a problem and it’s a mis-match. Can’t assume a definitive minded coach can get the most out of an inconsistent jump shooting offensive minded team.
That’s a mis-match.

If our jumpers ain’t falling. And we allows their jumpers to fall. We lose. I don’t care who we play.

OG and Mitch coming back will help but also hurt. They will come back and we will start winning games and Thibs will get all the glory. Leon will be praised. But that only mask the heart of the problem.

Roster missing a few key players. Leon has work to do to find key players that improves the team and Thibs will play. That’s a tuff balancing act.

1) Yes. True. Has nothing to do with the problems on Defense I pointed out. Even with 2 bad defensive players you can still box out and you can still run out to the 3 point shooters. No excuse.

2)Yes. True. Not sure why you are taking about our offense in this thread. I created a separate one for that. Even jump shooting players can box out and run out to the 3 point shooters.

Look, we might not be able to become elite defensively. However, until we solve the two things I addressed, I believe we will continue to be very inconsistent on d. And we are not going far in the playoffs.
I am not asking anyone on the team to become a second coming of Gary Payton or Bruce Bowen or whoever. But boxing out is basic basketball, so is not looking with puppy eyes at opponents letting it fly from 3 point land instead of closing out on them