Knicks · Playoff GameThread #5: Knicks-Detroit, 730pm TNT MSG 4/29 (page 16)

nycericanguy @ 4/30/2025 12:08 PM
lets be fair DET is a really good team. We would have steamrolled MIA or MIL without Dame.
Clean @ 4/30/2025 12:21 PM


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

martin @ 4/30/2025 12:29 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:I think there was a play during the 2nd quarter where Mitch set a pick for Jalen. Jalen got a smidge of space to pass the ball back to Mitch as if Mitch were rolling to the basket, but he didn't. He wasn't even looking and kinda turned around to move out of the area.

How does an above average IQ basketball player like Jalen even conceivably make that pass to Mitch? It's something that hasn't happened in years.

Like WTF Clutch Player of the Year.

Fatigue and pain can alter your decision making I guess. Jalen is going through it, despite what Detroit fans tell you. No excuse for Jalen going in with blinders on, but it is something to consider. Also, as mentioned above, Jalen isn't a natural playmaker.

Yeah, for me, I'm not there for the fatigue and pain thing on decision making. It's a golden rule and Jalen been playing with Mitch for 3 years and KNOWS Mitch is rusty AF

martin @ 4/30/2025 12:34 PM
Clean wrote:


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

Who is the player that you can turn into an offensive engine that can get easy baskets for other players?

Deuce and Mikal and OG are not them. So who is it that Thibs is sprinkling the fairy dust on that can do this thing?

I don't get that part. Cam? Or is it the assumption that a coaching system by itself can just overcome lack of ball handling and passing.

martin @ 4/30/2025 12:40 PM
Detroit shot 42%, 28% from downtown, missed 10 FT's, in MSG, and still won.

BigDaddyG @ 4/30/2025 12:49 PM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

Who is the player that you can turn into an offensive engine that can get easy baskets for other players?

Deuce and Mikal and OG are not them. So who is it that Thibs is sprinkling the fairy dust on that can do this thing?

I don't get that part. Cam? Or is it the assumption that a coaching system by itself can just overcome lack of ball handling and passing.

That's what system's are for. I'm not saying go back to the triangle, but you do need to have something place that's creates shots outside of an iso. The ball movement simply isn't where it needs to be. I understand trusting your players, but you also need to be able to put a steady hand on them.

Clean @ 4/30/2025 12:52 PM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

Who is the player that you can turn into an offensive engine that can get easy baskets for other players?

Deuce and Mikal and OG are not them. So who is it that Thibs is sprinkling the fairy dust on that can do this thing?

I don't get that part. Cam? Or is it the assumption that a coaching system by itself can just overcome lack of ball handling and passing.

You are misunderstanding his point. He is saying that you can't turn the players into that. You have to put them in the best postion to utilize their gifts. He is agreeing with you and wondering why Thibs was not calling plays to get these players to use their gifts instead of just giving them the ball to ISO.

EwingsGlass @ 4/30/2025 12:53 PM
martin wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:I think there was a play during the 2nd quarter where Mitch set a pick for Jalen. Jalen got a smidge of space to pass the ball back to Mitch as if Mitch were rolling to the basket, but he didn't. He wasn't even looking and kinda turned around to move out of the area.

How does an above average IQ basketball player like Jalen even conceivably make that pass to Mitch? It's something that hasn't happened in years.

Like WTF Clutch Player of the Year.

Fatigue and pain can alter your decision making I guess. Jalen is going through it, despite what Detroit fans tell you. No excuse for Jalen going in with blinders on, but it is something to consider. Also, as mentioned above, Jalen isn't a natural playmaker.

Yeah, for me, I'm not there for the fatigue and pain thing on decision making. It's a golden rule and Jalen been playing with Mitch for 3 years and KNOWS Mitch is rusty AF

Brunson had a bad game. Off night. 7/10 from the FT line is kind of telling. A mediocre night from Brunson would have been enough to eek out a win. The "not a natural playmaker" comment may be semantics, but he looks for his shot first, not that he can't make plays.

I don't like the Knicks offense style. The shot selections. The over-dribbling. If they make it through this series, I am skeptical of what the Boston series will look like. This team is not ready for this playoffs. They are playing a soft, inefficient style and letting the refs bail them out.

Clean @ 4/30/2025 12:58 PM
Listen to Caitlin explain what a good coach does. I been saying this for years. Thibs does not put players in positions where they and the team as a whole can be successful. No I am not talking about regular season. I am talking about in the playoffs. No one cares for the regular season. The playoffs is when teams take away options. When you have to make adjustments and move players around to be successful. Thibs is not able to do that. That is why he was always known as a great floor raiser but he will cap how good you can be because of his limitations.
Clean @ 4/30/2025 1:51 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

Who is the player that you can turn into an offensive engine that can get easy baskets for other players?

Deuce and Mikal and OG are not them. So who is it that Thibs is sprinkling the fairy dust on that can do this thing?

I don't get that part. Cam? Or is it the assumption that a coaching system by itself can just overcome lack of ball handling and passing.

You are misunderstanding his point. He is saying that you can't turn the players into that. You have to put them in the best postion to utilize their gifts. He is agreeing with you and wondering why Thibs was not calling plays to get these players to use their gifts instead of just giving them the ball to ISO.

martin @ 4/30/2025 2:39 PM
This seem right?

HofstraBBall @ 4/30/2025 3:13 PM
Clean wrote:Listen to Caitlin explain what a good coach does. I been saying this for years. Thibs does not put players in positions where they and the team as a whole can be successful. No I am not talking about regular season. I am talking about in the playoffs. No one cares for the regular season. The playoffs is when teams take away options. When you have to make adjustments and move players around to be successful. Thibs is not able to do that. That is why he was always known as a great floor raiser but he will cap how good you can be because of his limitations.

Are you saying we should get Caitlin to coach the Knicks?

Raise your hand if anyone maybe just maybe thinks the roster we have is not capable of winning a chip yet?
If you think this roster is complete then absolutely you start blaming the coach.

However, I think we still have to improve our bench.
Need to add a physical PF.
Get JB to see the floor better and not play hero ball.
Het a $50m elite player who can CREATE and take over a game.

Not saying we are a bad team.
We are a tough opponent and have highly skilled players.
May go deep if all players get hot.
But if you thought we were complete enough to blow out a tough young team and sweep the first round, you may have been miscalculated our deficiencies.

Clean @ 4/30/2025 3:16 PM
martin wrote:This seem right?


If I went to the games I would not be as loud as last year. I am just not feeling the team this season. So I understand why the fans might not feel the same as in the past.
Clean @ 4/30/2025 3:39 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Clean wrote:Listen to Caitlin explain what a good coach does. I been saying this for years. Thibs does not put players in positions where they and the team as a whole can be successful. No I am not talking about regular season. I am talking about in the playoffs. No one cares for the regular season. The playoffs is when teams take away options. When you have to make adjustments and move players around to be successful. Thibs is not able to do that. That is why he was always known as a great floor raiser but he will cap how good you can be because of his limitations.

Are you saying we should get Caitlin to coach the Knicks?

Raise your hand if anyone maybe just maybe thinks the roster we have is not capable of winning a chip yet?
If you think this roster is complete then absolutely you start blaming the coach.

However, I think we still have to improve our bench.
Need to add a physical PF.
Get JB to see the floor better and not play hero ball.
Het a $50m elite player who can CREATE and take over a game.

Not saying we are a bad team.
We are a tough opponent and have highly skilled players.
May go deep if all players get hot.
But if you thought we were complete enough to blow out a tough young team and sweep the first round, you may have been miscalculated our deficiencies.

Since you are having trouble understanding what I am talking about let me try it this way. I don't feel like this taking all day so I am sticking to offense to make my point and to make it as simple as possible. What we are talking about has nothing to do with how good the roster is. The goal for a good to great coach is to put the team and players in the best position to succeed. Everyone knows the players make or miss the shots. You are not breaking any news here.

How you can tell a good coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players. How you can tell a great coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players after teams gameplan to take his first few options away. Thibs is a good coach. He got us to have the very best offense in the history of the league for a few. The problem came once teams made the first adjustment. They put a big on Hart and that allowed them to pack the paint and double anything. They are willing to live with Hart shooting the ball. After that adjustment it was checkmate against Thibs. It's been months and he has not been able to counter it. The ability to adjust and still put your players and teams in positions to succeed is what seperates the good coaches from the great coaches. So I don't care if the players make or miss a shot. What quality of shot did Thibs get for those players in the important thing when evaluating a coach. Talent can carry a coach very far. Look at Doc Rivers.

Clean @ 4/30/2025 3:54 PM
Chandler @ 4/30/2025 4:13 PM
LivingLegend wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:Too many good passers and high IQ players for so much reliance on ISO.

Mitch showing his worth last night though. 13 & 11, and 8 OREB in just 23 min is crazy.

I underestimated Ihart big time because even if you swapped him out 1 for 1 with KAT, we are probably better.

Prior to last night in 4 games Mitch was averaging 5 boards, 2 points and 0.5 blocks ---- we are not better with Mitch vs Kat.

Play them both and sit Josh on the bench.

in what? 14mpg?... Defense and rim protection is the biggest thing.

KAT is soft unfortunately.

I've seen zero softness from Kat in these playoffs - if anything Kat has been forgotten on offense.

He basically has to create 100% on his own or squeeze off 25 footers before his defender is in his grill.

Kat sucked in regular season defensively --- thought he's been decent this series.

Issue has been high screen roll leading to top speed attacks by Cade that Kat has to contest leaving Duren open and cutters like Thompson wide open.

Defensive guru Thibs has not figured out how to hide Jalen.

My suggestion is to put Jalen on less athletic guys. Thompson is doing the only thing he can do on offense and we're making it easier by putting least athletic defender on him. I'd rather see JB on Hardaway or Beasley or even Harris if JB feels stout enough to hold ground.

Chandler @ 4/30/2025 4:20 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
martin wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:I think there was a play during the 2nd quarter where Mitch set a pick for Jalen. Jalen got a smidge of space to pass the ball back to Mitch as if Mitch were rolling to the basket, but he didn't. He wasn't even looking and kinda turned around to move out of the area.

How does an above average IQ basketball player like Jalen even conceivably make that pass to Mitch? It's something that hasn't happened in years.

Like WTF Clutch Player of the Year.

Fatigue and pain can alter your decision making I guess. Jalen is going through it, despite what Detroit fans tell you. No excuse for Jalen going in with blinders on, but it is something to consider. Also, as mentioned above, Jalen isn't a natural playmaker.

Yeah, for me, I'm not there for the fatigue and pain thing on decision making. It's a golden rule and Jalen been playing with Mitch for 3 years and KNOWS Mitch is rusty AF

Brunson had a bad game. Off night. 7/10 from the FT line is kind of telling. A mediocre night from Brunson would have been enough to eek out a win. The "not a natural playmaker" comment may be semantics, but he looks for his shot first, not that he can't make plays.

I don't like the Knicks offense style. The shot selections. The over-dribbling. If they make it through this series, I am skeptical of what the Boston series will look like. This team is not ready for this playoffs. They are playing a soft, inefficient style and letting the refs bail them out.

why not run it through KAT up top. Spreadw things out. He can see over the defense. Gives space for guys to cut, and if the guy sags he shoots

the issue isn't Jalen looking for his shot. the issue is he's doing that and holding the ball far too looooong

I also think if we defend and rebound better and get running a lot of things will self rectify

now everyone is tight. And we are running our offense on a very short shot clock by the time you account for full court pressure and his slow pace once he's over half court. way too predictable. defense is already organized etc.

nycericanguy @ 4/30/2025 5:03 PM
ultimately knicks will be fine and win this in 6, BOS was tested too by a worse team, it's not a horrible thing. but I don't think these players are being maximized and I'm not sure a team can win with KAT at the 5.
martin @ 4/30/2025 7:08 PM
Clean wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Clean wrote:Listen to Caitlin explain what a good coach does. I been saying this for years. Thibs does not put players in positions where they and the team as a whole can be successful. No I am not talking about regular season. I am talking about in the playoffs. No one cares for the regular season. The playoffs is when teams take away options. When you have to make adjustments and move players around to be successful. Thibs is not able to do that. That is why he was always known as a great floor raiser but he will cap how good you can be because of his limitations.

Are you saying we should get Caitlin to coach the Knicks?

Raise your hand if anyone maybe just maybe thinks the roster we have is not capable of winning a chip yet?
If you think this roster is complete then absolutely you start blaming the coach.

However, I think we still have to improve our bench.
Need to add a physical PF.
Get JB to see the floor better and not play hero ball.
Het a $50m elite player who can CREATE and take over a game.

Not saying we are a bad team.
We are a tough opponent and have highly skilled players.
May go deep if all players get hot.
But if you thought we were complete enough to blow out a tough young team and sweep the first round, you may have been miscalculated our deficiencies.

Since you are having trouble understanding what I am talking about let me try it this way. I don't feel like this taking all day so I am sticking to offense to make my point and to make it as simple as possible. What we are talking about has nothing to do with how good the roster is. The goal for a good to great coach is to put the team and players in the best position to succeed. Everyone knows the players make or miss the shots. You are not breaking any news here.

How you can tell a good coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players. How you can tell a great coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players after teams gameplan to take his first few options away. Thibs is a good coach. He got us to have the very best offense in the history of the league for a few. The problem came once teams made the first adjustment. They put a big on Hart and that allowed them to pack the paint and double anything. They are willing to live with Hart shooting the ball. After that adjustment it was checkmate against Thibs. It's been months and he has not been able to counter it. The ability to adjust and still put your players and teams in positions to succeed is what seperates the good coaches from the great coaches. So I don't care if the players make or miss a shot. What quality of shot did Thibs get for those players in the important thing when evaluating a coach. Talent can carry a coach very far. Look at Doc Rivers.

Point blank hard to out coach this. While Brunson is shooting 43% overall, 34% from downtown.

I don’t have stats to show us how wide open or not those shots were compared to other teams. Maybe you can point those out?

Knicks seem to be missing a ton.

HofstraBBall @ 4/30/2025 8:59 PM
Clean wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Clean wrote:Listen to Caitlin explain what a good coach does. I been saying this for years. Thibs does not put players in positions where they and the team as a whole can be successful. No I am not talking about regular season. I am talking about in the playoffs. No one cares for the regular season. The playoffs is when teams take away options. When you have to make adjustments and move players around to be successful. Thibs is not able to do that. That is why he was always known as a great floor raiser but he will cap how good you can be because of his limitations.

Are you saying we should get Caitlin to coach the Knicks?

Raise your hand if anyone maybe just maybe thinks the roster we have is not capable of winning a chip yet?
If you think this roster is complete then absolutely you start blaming the coach.

However, I think we still have to improve our bench.
Need to add a physical PF.
Get JB to see the floor better and not play hero ball.
Het a $50m elite player who can CREATE and take over a game.

Not saying we are a bad team.
We are a tough opponent and have highly skilled players.
May go deep if all players get hot.
But if you thought we were complete enough to blow out a tough young team and sweep the first round, you may have been miscalculated our deficiencies.

Since you are having trouble understanding what I am talking about let me try it this way. I don't feel like this taking all day so I am sticking to offense to make my point and to make it as simple as possible. What we are talking about has nothing to do with how good the roster is. The goal for a good to great coach is to put the team and players in the best position to succeed. Everyone knows the players make or miss the shots. You are not breaking any news here.

How you can tell a good coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players. How you can tell a great coach from the rest is the quality of shots he gets those players after teams gameplan to take his first few options away. Thibs is a good coach. He got us to have the very best offense in the history of the league for a few. The problem came once teams made the first adjustment. They put a big on Hart and that allowed them to pack the paint and double anything. They are willing to live with Hart shooting the ball. After that adjustment it was checkmate against Thibs. It's been months and he has not been able to counter it. The ability to adjust and still put your players and teams in positions to succeed is what seperates the good coaches from the great coaches. So I don't care if the players make or miss a shot. What quality of shot did Thibs get for those players in the important thing when evaluating a coach. Talent can carry a coach very far. Look at Doc Rivers.


Everything you said above makes no sense.
Especially when you are saying all that when talking about a game where your top two players shot 9-30.

And your whole
Post is to say that So a good coach is one who gets players quality shots??
Nah. Think A good coach does ONE thing. WIN!!!!
FYI, what Knicks shoot at the foul line? Was that because of Thibs not getting them a better shot?

As for adjustments, don’t know how many playoff series you have watched but coaches make adjustments game by game. Which usually results in a back and forth battle.
Enjoy the battle and hope our guys start making shots.

martin @ 5/1/2025 9:53 AM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:


Thibs is clueles on offense. Take Brunson out the whole game we struggle to score 70 in this series. Its why regular season does not matter. Teams take away options in the playoffs. Only good coaches can adapt. Thibs is not that. He is just lucky Brunson is as good as he is at creating his own shots because Thibs ain't going to help anyone get easy shots.

Who is the player that you can turn into an offensive engine that can get easy baskets for other players?

Deuce and Mikal and OG are not them. So who is it that Thibs is sprinkling the fairy dust on that can do this thing?

I don't get that part. Cam? Or is it the assumption that a coaching system by itself can just overcome lack of ball handling and passing.

You are misunderstanding his point. He is saying that you can't turn the players into that. You have to put them in the best postion to utilize their gifts. He is agreeing with you and wondering why Thibs was not calling plays to get these players to use their gifts instead of just giving them the ball to ISO.

I get that.

"Using your gifts" and "Their skillsets aren't being leveraged." is fluffy talk to me. There is another team on the court and they are doing things too.

Knicks are a very talented yet very flawed team. At some point there is a place in the real world where the rubber meets the road. When confusion starts, you need guys who are comfortable with the ball in their hands making decisions and have the ability to do so to create action. Knicks severely lack that, even with a system around them, cause systems don't solve everything. As a baseline, we know this cause most winning teams have system breakers/system solvers. Brunson is the epitome of that. Same with Tatum, Jordan, LeBron and the like; they are the system outlets. Knicks don't really even have normal ball handling system organizers. Mikal, OG, Deuce are in normal ball handling and decision making roles. They suck at that. KAT can sometimes take care of that because he is talented, but you have to GET him the ball and this is kinda negated by a big wing. Hart typically has C's on him and he has not shown the ability to do anything against it.

The Hot Hands guys are just too handsy with themselves to get past their own theories. Like stop stroking off with the furiously hot hands and get get in the real world. Their underlying is that you just need to maximize talented players with a system with little regard for the actual skill sets and actions that are needed on the court.

I thought this was a very good breakdown.

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