Knicks · KAT and JB (page 1)
Going by lineup data, the two man combo of JB and KAT wasnt too impressive during the regular season and was down right bad in the playoffs. Its not difficult to see why, both JB and KAT struggle on defense. I think this was a major reason behind the decision to move on from Thibs. Both these guys played at an all NBA level last season but put up very pedestrian numbers when they shared the court. My overall impression of last season was that the team played as less than the sum of its parts, with the JB/ KAT combo being the most egregious exemplar.
I still have scars from the Amare/ Melo pairing though I think JB and KAT should theoretically be a much better pairing. Im not sure what changes Brown needs to make, whether schematic or personnel, but I hope hes a little more adventurous than Thibs was last season. It seems like Deuce features heavily in the best lineups so maybe with Clarkson coming off the bench, Hart can be a super sub and Deuce can start at SG.
I dont see a scenario where JB, MB, OG, and KAT dont start. Maybe Mitchell starts next to KAT. Robinsons summer videos look great. My big issue with that is managing the rotations since we thus far look shallow for bigs. If Im honest, I think this team needs to click before the trade deadline. If the JB/ KAT combo isnt working by then, it might be the time to trade KAT for LBJ.
Reality is JB and Kat will never be defenseive greats but if they can just be a bit better that could be enough.
At the same time if we better offensively and play to that strength that could be were we go. Its not "Knicks basketball" but its a new era and if we play faster we just might be able to outscore the opponent which is how games are won. LOL........
Brown needs to solve what Thibs could not.
LBJ? Its a sort of Dump right? Does it put us in the finals and with Mitch and Lebron off the books open a massive FA opportunity next season?? Staruphuch extraordinare! Just not seeing any UFA that can fill the void.
The tandem worked well until January-ish, when the offense looked ELITE the starting lineup looked elite. Then Thibs turned us back into the grinding Knicks of the last 4-5 years, the offense fell off a cliff, and they didn't have enough defensive chops to make up for it. Many fans blamed the lack of a true 5-out lineup, essentially neutering Towns' presence by allowing teams to hide opposing Centers on Josh Hart to roam freely on defense.
If you are going to maximize Towns impact on offense, you need to force opposing Centers to guard him and form an elite offense. If not, you need to be able to form an elite defense (Ala Minny a couple years ago). You can't go in between which is what we kind of did all season.
DLeethal wrote:I mean ... this was discussed to death throughout the latter part of the season, playoffs, and the thickest of the "fire Thibs" discussions revolved around this.The tandem worked well until January-ish, when the offense looked ELITE the starting lineup looked elite. Then Thibs turned us back into the grinding Knicks of the last 4-5 years, the offense fell off a cliff, and they didn't have enough defensive chops to make up for it. Many fans blamed the lack of a true 5-out lineup, essentially neutering Towns' presence by allowing teams to hide opposing Centers on Josh Hart to roam freely on defense.
If you are going to maximize Towns impact on offense, you need to force opposing Centers to guard him and form an elite offense. If not, you need to be able to form an elite defense (Ala Minny a couple years ago). You can't go in between which is what we kind of did all season.
I dont know if this is exactly true. Knicks had 87 FGA per game in Dec and 91 in Jan. and 92 in Feb. I think the difference was more about 3PA and 3P% going down. Opponents shot 35% from 3 in Dec and 41% in Jan.
Re: LBJ, just a thought. I dont think LAL can get through in the West but I could be wrong. I think Ayton is highly underrated- PHO won his minutes during the Finals but the Bucks went on a run everytime he sat. I think CP and Booker were "Mean Girls" in the locker room. Knicks would give LBJ a good shot at making the Finals. Plus, lets be honest, the TV ratings would be absolutely through the roof.
There is a romantic ending with him returning to Clev and get that 5th chip? Great theater.
Is that this year or he sign on next season? Do a "sort of retire" with some pretend injury, go to the lab, then come in for the 2nd half of the season? If its at our expense I'd be pissed, but if not its a good story line regardless of the outcome. I know some of you would prefer he taste his own blood and die under the weight of an on fire oil truck but thats not everyone.
gradyandrew wrote:DLeethal wrote:I mean ... this was discussed to death throughout the latter part of the season, playoffs, and the thickest of the "fire Thibs" discussions revolved around this.The tandem worked well until January-ish, when the offense looked ELITE the starting lineup looked elite. Then Thibs turned us back into the grinding Knicks of the last 4-5 years, the offense fell off a cliff, and they didn't have enough defensive chops to make up for it. Many fans blamed the lack of a true 5-out lineup, essentially neutering Towns' presence by allowing teams to hide opposing Centers on Josh Hart to roam freely on defense.
If you are going to maximize Towns impact on offense, you need to force opposing Centers to guard him and form an elite offense. If not, you need to be able to form an elite defense (Ala Minny a couple years ago). You can't go in between which is what we kind of did all season.
I dont know if this is exactly true. Knicks had 87 FGA per game in Dec and 91 in Jan. and 92 in Feb. I think the difference was more about 3PA and 3P% going down. Opponents shot 35% from 3 in Dec and 41% in Jan.
Re: LBJ, just a thought. I dont think LAL can get through in the West but I could be wrong. I think Ayton is highly underrated- PHO won his minutes during the Finals but the Bucks went on a run everytime he sat. I think CP and Booker were "Mean Girls" in the locker room. Knicks would give LBJ a good shot at making the Finals. Plus, lets be honest, the TV ratings would be absolutely through the roof.
I would assume every passing / assist stat for the team also went down during that period. And yes 3PA was a massive factor and usually an indicator in today's NBA of how the offense is flowing.
The alleged benefit of KAT to the offense would be to implement the 5 out offense. For that, neither Hart nor Robinson are sufficient. A guy like Herb Jones was ideal - that didn't work out. I think getting a third 3&D wingstop, preferably one with size and wingspan to cover the PF/C without putting OG at PF would be ideal next to Brunson and KAT. But you still have the issue with teams just calling picks until they iso Brunson or KAT - its just you have a ton of help defense in Bridges, OG and [wingstop#3].
I would not trade for LBJ. Fun daydream but no link to reality. My new celebrity crush is Toumani Camara. He might be priced out of our needs as a second team All Defense player, but he fits the archtype for the 3rd wingstop. Maybe a little bigger player. In the short term, a guy like Trey Lyles out of the bargain bin would fit the most pressing need next to KAT.
Its worth watching the Plus/Minus of KAT and Brunson going forward.
Shamet, Payne, Precious can't even get vet min contracts this year. Mitch was hurt. Shamet missed a lot of games.
There was a big drop off between starters and the dreck that was left outside of Deuce, who had a very up and down season after being repeatedly injured himself.
martin wrote:All I know is that the Knicks bench consisted of Cam Payne, Precious, Jericho, Mitch, Deuce, Shamet. Amongst others.Shamet, Payne, Precious can't even get vet min contracts this year. Mitch was hurt. Shamet missed a lot of games.
There was a big drop off between starters and the dreck that was left outside of Deuce, who had a very up and down season after being repeatedly injured himself.
great point. Surprised about Shamet though and hope we bring him back.
Mitch, Yabu, clarkson and Deuce is looking like a strength this season.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:All I know is that the Knicks bench consisted of Cam Payne, Precious, Jericho, Mitch, Deuce, Shamet. Amongst others.Shamet, Payne, Precious can't even get vet min contracts this year. Mitch was hurt. Shamet missed a lot of games.
There was a big drop off between starters and the dreck that was left outside of Deuce, who had a very up and down season after being repeatedly injured himself.
great point. Surprised about Shamet though and hope we bring him back.
MitchHart(pg), Yabu, clarkson(sf) and Deuce(sg) is looking like a strength this season.
I know Thibs would have a field day putting Yabu at center and running bridges (until his knees fall off) with those 4.
Knixkik wrote:Lebron is a worse defender than KAT at this point. But besides that, it’s clear that the coach needs to make the pairing work. There’s ways around that weakness.
It's the hill we are going to die on for now at least.
Knixkik wrote:Lebron is a worse defender than KAT at this point. But besides that, it’s clear that the coach needs to make the pairing work. There’s ways around that weakness.
IMO Lebron picks and chooses his spots where to expend his energy. Some games more than others, and some sequences more than others. Its a long season and he is one bad injury from calling it a day. Kareem was similar but was flanked by a few HOF's to help. I don't feel a LBJ for Kat trade would benefit us to the point of getting over the hump.
More likely, and its a low probability is skinny Luka don't make it thru the season healthy (funny now the trade got him skinny?) and perhaps Lakers grant him a buy out for his freedom and he clears thru to us for a playoff run. I won't go into the semantics of how this happens or whose minutes he takes as its a highly improbable but unless we want to dump KAT salary I don't see a trade.
More likely as well that if he got the buyout he'd go to Cleveland.
I don't believe either Mitch or Hart are the answer as the 5th starter next to the 4 of Brunson/Mikal/OG/Kat.
Both Mitch/Hart have major offensive warts and Hart has some defensive as well.
Deuce is a thought but again he is a limited ball handler, creator and limited defensively with his stature.
Was hoping we'd swing some type of deal to at least bring in a bigger SG who could be handle, shoot and just be SOLID. This wouldn't solve our rim protection issue in starting line-up but I still feel we need another ball-handler, with size and shooting who can also defend.
Keon Ellis would be nice and it would be really nice if NBA would allow Knicks to simply steal Dyson Daniel from Atlanta. Daniel to me would be exactly what we need even with mediocre shooting.
EwingsGlass wrote:You are right to question the effectiveness of Brunson and KAT last year. I don't really think the offense will be much more effective this year with Robinson or Hart in the starting lineup. The defense should improve with Robinson.The alleged benefit of KAT to the offense would be to implement the 5 out offense. For that, neither Hart nor Robinson are sufficient. A guy like Herb Jones was ideal - that didn't work out. I think getting a third 3&D wingstop, preferably one with size and wingspan to cover the PF/C without putting OG at PF would be ideal next to Brunson and KAT. But you still have the issue with teams just calling picks until they iso Brunson or KAT - its just you have a ton of help defense in Bridges, OG and [wingstop#3].
I would not trade for LBJ. Fun daydream but no link to reality. My new celebrity crush is Toumani Camara. He might be priced out of our needs as a second team All Defense player, but he fits the archtype for the 3rd wingstop. Maybe a little bigger player. In the short term, a guy like Trey Lyles out of the bargain bin would fit the most pressing need next to KAT.
Its worth watching the Plus/Minus of KAT and Brunson going forward.
I think Deuce as the 5-out answer or us here is underrated. Deuce made every lineup he was in last year better, all of them playing the 2 spot. He becomes the POA defender, where Mikal struggled mightily most of the year, and slides he and OG back to wingstop positions of strength. Simply swapping Deuce and Hart with renewed emphasis on 5-out offense could be a major boon to this offense / team.
DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:You are right to question the effectiveness of Brunson and KAT last year. I don't really think the offense will be much more effective this year with Robinson or Hart in the starting lineup. The defense should improve with Robinson.The alleged benefit of KAT to the offense would be to implement the 5 out offense. For that, neither Hart nor Robinson are sufficient. A guy like Herb Jones was ideal - that didn't work out. I think getting a third 3&D wingstop, preferably one with size and wingspan to cover the PF/C without putting OG at PF would be ideal next to Brunson and KAT. But you still have the issue with teams just calling picks until they iso Brunson or KAT - its just you have a ton of help defense in Bridges, OG and [wingstop#3].
I would not trade for LBJ. Fun daydream but no link to reality. My new celebrity crush is Toumani Camara. He might be priced out of our needs as a second team All Defense player, but he fits the archtype for the 3rd wingstop. Maybe a little bigger player. In the short term, a guy like Trey Lyles out of the bargain bin would fit the most pressing need next to KAT.
Its worth watching the Plus/Minus of KAT and Brunson going forward.
I think Deuce as the 5-out answer or us here is underrated. Deuce made every lineup he was in last year better, all of them playing the 2 spot. He becomes the POA defender, where Mikal struggled mightily most of the year, and slides he and OG back to wingstop positions of strength. Simply swapping Deuce and Hart with renewed emphasis on 5-out offense could be a major boon to this offense / team.
Agree with everything you say here D. It was reminiscent of IQ where he had a huge impact on +/- in every lineup but somehow Thibs kept both guys glued to the bench with inconsistent minutes. Especially with Clarkson on the team now, I think the Knicks can grind out enough bench offense with Clarkson creating and MRob and Hart dominating the boards on botb ends. Toss in Yabu and one of the starters and baby, you got a stew.
gradyandrew wrote:DLeethal wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:You are right to question the effectiveness of Brunson and KAT last year. I don't really think the offense will be much more effective this year with Robinson or Hart in the starting lineup. The defense should improve with Robinson.The alleged benefit of KAT to the offense would be to implement the 5 out offense. For that, neither Hart nor Robinson are sufficient. A guy like Herb Jones was ideal - that didn't work out. I think getting a third 3&D wingstop, preferably one with size and wingspan to cover the PF/C without putting OG at PF would be ideal next to Brunson and KAT. But you still have the issue with teams just calling picks until they iso Brunson or KAT - its just you have a ton of help defense in Bridges, OG and [wingstop#3].
I would not trade for LBJ. Fun daydream but no link to reality. My new celebrity crush is Toumani Camara. He might be priced out of our needs as a second team All Defense player, but he fits the archtype for the 3rd wingstop. Maybe a little bigger player. In the short term, a guy like Trey Lyles out of the bargain bin would fit the most pressing need next to KAT.
Its worth watching the Plus/Minus of KAT and Brunson going forward.
I think Deuce as the 5-out answer or us here is underrated. Deuce made every lineup he was in last year better, all of them playing the 2 spot. He becomes the POA defender, where Mikal struggled mightily most of the year, and slides he and OG back to wingstop positions of strength. Simply swapping Deuce and Hart with renewed emphasis on 5-out offense could be a major boon to this offense / team.
Agree with everything you say here D. It was reminiscent of IQ where he had a huge impact on +/- in every lineup but somehow Thibs kept both guys glued to the bench with inconsistent minutes. Especially with Clarkson on the team now, I think the Knicks can grind out enough bench offense with Clarkson creating and MRob and Hart dominating the boards on botb ends. Toss in Yabu and one of the starters and baby, you got a stew.
I can agree. I am just hoping to find the PF version of Deuce that gives us positional size advantage at PF, SF and SG rather than being undersized at PF, SF, SG and PG. Work with what we have regardless.
EwingsGlass wrote:
I can agree. I am just hoping to find the PF version of Deuce that gives us positional size advantage at PF, SF and SG rather than being undersized at PF, SF, SG and PG. Work with what we have regardless.
Considering 5 years ago we finished 10 games over 500 starting Noel, Randle, Bullock, Barret, and Payne, my feeling is any problems thr NYK have going forward are about coaching. Front office has brought home steak and lobster, its up to the coach to make a meal.
gradyandrew wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:
I can agree. I am just hoping to find the PF version of Deuce that gives us positional size advantage at PF, SF and SG rather than being undersized at PF, SF, SG and PG. Work with what we have regardless.Considering 5 years ago we finished 10 games over 500 starting Noel, Randle, Bullock, Barret, and Payne, my feeling is any problems thr NYK have going forward are about coaching. Front office has brought home steak and lobster, its up to the coach to make a meal.
Your feeling is confirmed by FO and Dolan moving past the 30mm owed Thibs and bring in Brown and Co.
Thibs did great with what he had. Maybe he'd have figured it out with a stronger bench but that aspect left with him. Brown is a very capable hire conceptually which is all we got.
As you said, the talent ingredients are there but what what it adds up to is a different story.
The specifics to Thibs removal are not public. In part its been speculated he did not get on with Mikal, or more like Mikal did not agree with him and the obvious minutes/usage with others as well. Better bench and confidence in them matters.
I hope Thibs is pulling a Belichek and making up for lost time with a women half his age and enjoying life.
New York Knicks: 940
The five-man lineup of Jalen Brunson, OG Anunoby, Josh Hart, Mikal Bridges and Karl-Anthony Towns played 940 minutes in the regular season, by far the most in the NBA. Only one other lineup (the Timberwolves' starters at 714) reached 500 minutes. That was to be expected given ex-coach Tom Thibodeau's preferences.But contrary to expectations, the Knicks' starters didn't mesh all that well, despite their Villanova connections and theoretical positional balance. The group finished with a plus-3.2 net rating, which sounds OK but is actually below-average for a high-usage lineup; the 50 five-man units with the most playing time this past season finished with an average net rating of plus-5.0, according to an analysis of NBA Advanced Stats data. Then in the playoffs, New York's starters had a minus-6.2 net rating, as the team relied on lineups with reserves Mitchell Robinson and Miles McBride to reach the conference finals.
Under new head coach Mike Brown, with two more reliable reserves (Jordan Clarkson and Guerschon Yabusele) in the fold, New York's starters probably won't spend quite so much time together this season. But they can't just play less often; they also need to play better in their second season together for New York to reach its first Finals this century.
from ESPN, one number for every team. Im appreciative of Zach Cram for doing the legwork on comparing the Knicks vs other high usage lineups. My guess is MitchRob if healthy starts. Is Mitch Rob in the dunkers spot with OG and Mikal in the corners and JB and KAT doing pick and rolls the way to go?
DLeethal wrote:eye test says this was other teams adjusting. They consistently put a wing on KAT outside to keep him from shooting open 3s. That worked. It dropped his number of attempts dramatically and resulted in him driving to the basket more where he never passes and scores at a high rate.gradyandrew wrote:DLeethal wrote:I mean ... this was discussed to death throughout the latter part of the season, playoffs, and the thickest of the "fire Thibs" discussions revolved around this.The tandem worked well until January-ish, when the offense looked ELITE the starting lineup looked elite. Then Thibs turned us back into the grinding Knicks of the last 4-5 years, the offense fell off a cliff, and they didn't have enough defensive chops to make up for it. Many fans blamed the lack of a true 5-out lineup, essentially neutering Towns' presence by allowing teams to hide opposing Centers on Josh Hart to roam freely on defense.
If you are going to maximize Towns impact on offense, you need to force opposing Centers to guard him and form an elite offense. If not, you need to be able to form an elite defense (Ala Minny a couple years ago). You can't go in between which is what we kind of did all season.
I dont know if this is exactly true. Knicks had 87 FGA per game in Dec and 91 in Jan. and 92 in Feb. I think the difference was more about 3PA and 3P% going down. Opponents shot 35% from 3 in Dec and 41% in Jan.
Re: LBJ, just a thought. I dont think LAL can get through in the West but I could be wrong. I think Ayton is highly underrated- PHO won his minutes during the Finals but the Bucks went on a run everytime he sat. I think CP and Booker were "Mean Girls" in the locker room. Knicks would give LBJ a good shot at making the Finals. Plus, lets be honest, the TV ratings would be absolutely through the roof.
I would assume every passing / assist stat for the team also went down during that period. And yes 3PA was a massive factor and usually an indicator in today's NBA of how the offense is flowing.
If you defended the Knicks well in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock the ball stops moving and goes to an iso player namely JB or KAT