Knicks · Mo Diawara could/should eventually be the missing piece (page 4)
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
If the Knicks keep Mitch, there is no reason to not sign Huk for that 3rd spot?
I don't understand what you mean by the "not eligible for a second round exception deal". Knicks do have him as a RFA with a cap hold of $2.4M. My assumption is that they can offer him a vet min deal and that would come with Bird Rights too because it would be the 3rd year in a row?
That's incentive for both sides to continue his development at low cost? With a side of Trey Jemison too?
What i mean by his contract is he’s going to cost the normal minimum like any other player. So the Knicks will probably just sign a better minimum guy like Kevon Looney/ Marvin Bagley etc. There’s a lot of free agent bigs who will be minimum guys. I also think the Knicks will use a second round pick on a center and sign that player to the second round exception so it’s a super cheap contract. There’s plenty of useable bigs in the later part of the draft. Maybe they like Hukporti and see the development behind the scenes, but this year he legit can’t score around the basket, doesn’t even look at the hoop, and isn’t really making up for it on the defensive end. If we resign Mitch, and hopefully we do, we need a better third string center to play 15 mpg during his off nights.
I get what you are saying but don't agree with the type of player and opportunity that 3rd string guy would be looking for.
You need a guy who is looking for zero guaranteed playing time on a playoff team. If a Looney type is AOK with not really playing, then maybe. Looney did sign an $8M contract for this season, so that's his type of contract with a not good team.
Bagley most likely signed an underrated vet min contract with WAS with the hopes of playing to rehabilitate his value. Maybe he'll be OK with that type of payday without the hope of consistent playing time, cause that would be the role.
Feel like the type of players who normally take a vet min deal with zero playing time are DeAndre Jordan, Mason Plumlee, Bismack Biyombo, Duop Reath types.
Why not take a shot at an upside guy like Huk who you know?
I just bring up Looney because he’s not playing on a bad team, and won’t be making that money again. So I am thinking he’s at the point of his career where he wants to latch onto a playoff team. And it’s easy for a vet to look at backing up Mitch and knowing he’s going to play real rotation minutes for 30+ games when Mitch rests or is hurt. But I see what you mean.
BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
McCullar has offensive skills. He can shoot, he has a handle, he can create and he can dime. He is an NBA player.
And he is an elite defender.
Eventually he will need to show some of those things though. He never lit up summer league or Westchester. His proven skills are limited to defensive effort right now.
Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
nycericanguy wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://www.twitter.com/KnickFilmSkool/status/2028870629865275829?s=20
Click here to view the TweetI think he’s spot on. With the only caveat being if he has some amazing playoff breakthrough.
i'm gonna disagree here, Arenas was a long time ago. Analytics and positionless ball rule the game now. And MO is an analytics darling. He's elite at the corner 3 which is the best shot in the game right now, and he can guard 1-5 which is a rare skill.
And cheap talent is more important than ever with the new CBA, so while $8m or so per year might be alot for a guy drafted #51, it's a steal if you think he's a legit 3 & D player.
Yes
Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
McCullar has offensive skills. He can shoot, he has a handle, he can create and he can dime. He is an NBA player.
And he is an elite defender.
Eventually he will need to show some of those things though. He never lit up summer league or Westchester. His proven skills are limited to defensive effort right now.
I think McCullar was considered a pretty good rim finisher and mid range guy in college. Just needed to prove the distance thing.
He is very connective like Josh Hart and willing shooter.
I don't know if Knicks would have bird rights after next year with him but Knicks have stood by his development and injury recovery. It'll take something weird for him to leave? Like maybe Shamet Deuce Hart Mikal Mo Dadiet all being on roster next year and no other above vet min offers that would yield minutes.
Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
McCullar has offensive skills. He can shoot, he has a handle, he can create and he can dime. He is an NBA player.
And he is an elite defender.
Eventually he will need to show some of those things though. He never lit up summer league or Westchester. His proven skills are limited to defensive effort right now.
Yes he did. You missed it
BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
McCullar has offensive skills. He can shoot, he has a handle, he can create and he can dime. He is an NBA player.
And he is an elite defender.
Eventually he will need to show some of those things though. He never lit up summer league or Westchester. His proven skills are limited to defensive effort right now.
McCullar is a 2-way player and has played the least amount of GLeague games compared to Dadiet, Trey, Dillon. Even Mo only got 1 Gleague game while not playing a ton at the big league. He only has played 7 in the GLeague and played more real minutes in games in the NBA. Weird right?
If you take a look at his GLeague splits, he has really shown defense, rebounding, assists, steals at the GLeague level. I don't watch the games but try to peak at some play and he looked CONFIDENT at the GLeague level in his last games, like he stood out. Except his shooting.
https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Kev...
McCullar is probably on a shooting development path. Mo and Deuce path. Let them learn the game slow and work on their 1 or 2 weaknesses and see what you got.
If Mo couldn't shoot the 3point shot, we wouldn't see much of him. But we do, because he can shoot and has a handle.
nycericanguy wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
I guess it'll be a type of decision of what type of player you regard Deuce.
He is one of the best 3point shooters in the league. Period. He is a very good 2-way player, he plays very stout PoA defense. Playoff tested.
If you say had a big PG like DeJounte Murray or LaMelo Ball, you wouldn't want to invest in a $15+M 2-way player who kills it from distance? If he isn't a starter, he certainly is a very solid rotation player who could start in a pinch.
I don't think $10M is his range, it's much higher.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
I guess it'll be a type of decision of what type of player you regard Deuce.
He is one of the best 3point shooters in the league. Period. He is a very good 2-way player, he plays very stout PoA defense. Playoff tested.
If you say had a big PG like DeJounte Murray or LaMelo Ball, you wouldn't want to invest in a $15+M 2-way player who kills it from distance? If he isn't a starter, he certainly is a very solid rotation player who could start in a pinch.
I don't think $10M is his range, it's much higher.
based on a 35 game sample size on one of the best teams in the NBA where he gets alot of open looks?
Because he doesn't have the quickest release and isn't great at creating his own shot.
Last season he was at 36.9%. He was career 36% coming into this season. He was one of the best this season no doubt, but it's such a small sample size.
I don't think its crazy he gets 3/45m... but that's definitely more the ceiling IMO. Someone earlier said he's getting 4/80m which is more what I'm referencing.
I think he'll get a 3 year deal around 10-15m per but probably closer to 10m.
arent contract negotiations great? Because I love DEuce.
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
I guess it'll be a type of decision of what type of player you regard Deuce.
He is one of the best 3point shooters in the league. Period. He is a very good 2-way player, he plays very stout PoA defense. Playoff tested.
If you say had a big PG like DeJounte Murray or LaMelo Ball, you wouldn't want to invest in a $15+M 2-way player who kills it from distance? If he isn't a starter, he certainly is a very solid rotation player who could start in a pinch.
I don't think $10M is his range, it's much higher.
based on a 35 game sample size on one of the best teams in the NBA where he gets alot of open looks?
Because he doesn't have the quickest release and isn't great at creating his own shot.
Last season he was at 36.9%. He was career 36% coming into this season. He was one of the best this season no doubt, but it's such a small sample size.
I don't think its crazy he gets 3/45m... but that's definitely more the ceiling IMO. Someone earlier said he's getting 4/80m which is more what I'm referencing.
I think he'll get a 3 year deal around 10-15m per but probably closer to 10m.
arent contract negotiations great? Because I love DEuce.
No, as a GM I wouldn't only base my decision off of that 35 game sample size, and they don't. Deuce has some injury history too. He is 25.
What's the going rate for starters or 6th men type who are very good 2-way players? It's much higher than $10M. Also, it's a % of the cap that'll determine the number more than raw $, and at even $15M, it'll be less than 10% of cap for a near starter. That's really good value.
I'm guessing that's how GM's look at him. And then it's just opportunity. Near starters don't come on the market all the time, especially at 25 with playoff experience.
Today, the Pistons are paying Duncan Robinson $17M, LeVert $14M, and traded for Kevin Huerter at $18M. They will have gonzo cap space when Deuce hits the market. It would be completely worthwhile - because of the unique market circumstance - to offer Deuce $15M+.
And that's what Leon is up against. CHO, Detroit are 2 example of in conference teams that would probably do it.
martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
I guess it'll be a type of decision of what type of player you regard Deuce.
He is one of the best 3point shooters in the league. Period. He is a very good 2-way player, he plays very stout PoA defense. Playoff tested.
If you say had a big PG like DeJounte Murray or LaMelo Ball, you wouldn't want to invest in a $15+M 2-way player who kills it from distance? If he isn't a starter, he certainly is a very solid rotation player who could start in a pinch.
I don't think $10M is his range, it's much higher.
based on a 35 game sample size on one of the best teams in the NBA where he gets alot of open looks?
Because he doesn't have the quickest release and isn't great at creating his own shot.
Last season he was at 36.9%. He was career 36% coming into this season. He was one of the best this season no doubt, but it's such a small sample size.
I don't think its crazy he gets 3/45m... but that's definitely more the ceiling IMO. Someone earlier said he's getting 4/80m which is more what I'm referencing.
I think he'll get a 3 year deal around 10-15m per but probably closer to 10m.
arent contract negotiations great? Because I love DEuce.
No, as a GM I wouldn't only base my decision off of that 35 game sample size, and they don't. Deuce has some injury history too. He is 25.
What's the going rate for starters or 6th men type who are very good 2-way players? It's much higher than $10M. Also, it's a % of the cap that'll determine the number more than raw $, and at even $15M, it'll be less than 10% of cap for a near starter. That's really good value.
I'm guessing that's how GM's look at him. And then it's just opportunity. Near starters don't come on the market all the time, especially at 25 with playoff experience.
Today, the Pistons are paying Duncan Robinson $17M, LeVert $14M, and traded for Kevin Huerter at $18M. They will have gonzo cap space when Deuce hits the market. It would be completely worthwhile - because of the unique market circumstance - to offer Deuce $15M+.
And that's what Leon is up against. CHO, Detroit are 2 example of in conference teams that would probably do it.
Deuce has a couple of things going against him though, he's 6'2 but not a PG, and the injury history.
So how many of those guys are 6'2? If he was 6'6 then $15-20m all day.
Same reason Alvarado only makes $4m. He's a PG but doesn't have the size or shooting.
Size matters. Even Shamet has been underpaid in his career because he's "only" 6'5" and not really a PG either.
but yes i can see DET as a fit
nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:martin wrote:nycericanguy wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
And Shamet has always been a vet min guy more or less, which is why I don't buy this idea that Deuce is going to get $15m contract. I think he'll get something around 3/30m.
I guess it'll be a type of decision of what type of player you regard Deuce.
He is one of the best 3point shooters in the league. Period. He is a very good 2-way player, he plays very stout PoA defense. Playoff tested.
If you say had a big PG like DeJounte Murray or LaMelo Ball, you wouldn't want to invest in a $15+M 2-way player who kills it from distance? If he isn't a starter, he certainly is a very solid rotation player who could start in a pinch.
I don't think $10M is his range, it's much higher.
based on a 35 game sample size on one of the best teams in the NBA where he gets alot of open looks?
Because he doesn't have the quickest release and isn't great at creating his own shot.
Last season he was at 36.9%. He was career 36% coming into this season. He was one of the best this season no doubt, but it's such a small sample size.
I don't think its crazy he gets 3/45m... but that's definitely more the ceiling IMO. Someone earlier said he's getting 4/80m which is more what I'm referencing.
I think he'll get a 3 year deal around 10-15m per but probably closer to 10m.
arent contract negotiations great? Because I love DEuce.
No, as a GM I wouldn't only base my decision off of that 35 game sample size, and they don't. Deuce has some injury history too. He is 25.
What's the going rate for starters or 6th men type who are very good 2-way players? It's much higher than $10M. Also, it's a % of the cap that'll determine the number more than raw $, and at even $15M, it'll be less than 10% of cap for a near starter. That's really good value.
I'm guessing that's how GM's look at him. And then it's just opportunity. Near starters don't come on the market all the time, especially at 25 with playoff experience.
Today, the Pistons are paying Duncan Robinson $17M, LeVert $14M, and traded for Kevin Huerter at $18M. They will have gonzo cap space when Deuce hits the market. It would be completely worthwhile - because of the unique market circumstance - to offer Deuce $15M+.
And that's what Leon is up against. CHO, Detroit are 2 example of in conference teams that would probably do it.
Deuce has a couple of things going against him though, he's 6'2 but not a PG, and the injury history.
So how many of those guys are 6'2? If he was 6'6 then $15-20m all day.
Same reason Alvarado only makes $4m. He's a PG but doesn't have the size or shooting.
Size matters. Even Shamet has been underpaid in his career because he's "only" 6'5" and not really a PG either.
but yes i can see DET as a fit
Deuce is definitely not a PG. He fits really well next to a big PG. He is also a PoA defender at the playoff level. His size doesn't really matter because of his strength level, wingspan, and screen navigation with the ability to spread the floor at near elite levels, even in a 35 game span.
This is a bit of a unique market value determination, cause those types of players don't come on the market too often. And you need to overpay in those circumstances, like NY did with Mikal kinda sorta.
BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
If you could choose only one of Deuce and Alvarado who you got? Deuce’s next contract is going to hurt, could be time to move on and stick with the veteran minimum guy. Besides we have a guy who’s not really a point guard but too small to be a shooting guard named Brunson. I love Deuce but sometimes you can’t keep everybody. Mitch on the other hand isn’t going anywhere. If someone is going to do a team friendly contest it’s him.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.
I think the choice isn’t between Jose and Deuce, it’s between Shamet and Deuce. Both operate as 3 and D guards. Shamet can play up but Deuce provides more ball handling. Deuce is better overall but will get paid more. Outside of our starting 5, I think Alvarado, Mitch and Diawara come back and the final rotation spot is either shamet or Deuce as a 3&D guy. Then they will just fill out the roster on minimum contracts and rookie contracts. Ultimately the Deuce/ shamet decision comes down to money. If shamet is fine coming back cheap, great. If he wants to get paid, he’s probably gone and the Knicks shift focus to a deuce extension. This is all assuming no major trade. Obviously a trade changes things.
TBH, Shamet is as good as Deuce with more size for match-up purposes
I think Deuce is a much better player than Shamet. But I can see why the added size is important.
I'm a Deuce fan. He was blazing hot from 3 when he went down, but other than that there are no qualifications to say he is much better than Shamet.
I'd want them both on my team, but if a cap situation came up where you had to trade Deuce and pay Shamet a third or half as much you'd be getting the same impact on the floor.
Shamet is actually better than Deuce at getting over screens on defense. He is 6'5" and completely ripped. His size and strength matches him up with almost anyone you put him on. Deuce is a shorty and is known to struggle when defending anyone over 6'5" so there's that.
On offense, Shamet is every bit Deuce's equal in decisive actions on offense. If anything, Shamet will probe defenses more than Deuce and find seams to either score in or to get off a pass.
Shamet's ball handling skills are at least equal to Deuce.
Deuce may still be improving though and Shamet is a fairly finished product.
But in terms of their roles, they are very similar and Shamet was the player who supercharged this team to go on its current run with his defensive intensity and clean offensive contributions.
If you can make a case for why Deuce is a much better player I'm open, but I see them as pretty much equals at this point with a size advantage to Shamet.
I value the additional ball handling and shot creation. Deuce isn’t a shot creator per se but he’s a threat with the ball in his hands and when defense tightens up in a playoff environment he can facilitate to some degree. I put a lot of value on that.
BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Knixkik wrote:BlueKnickers wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Rookie wrote:Nalod wrote:The kid is 20 and an opportunity is more valuable sometimes then some contracts. That he proved himself is one thing but he also owes the team the benefit of the doubt given few contending teams let rookies do what he is doing. With the right coach and staff in place that is very important than say go to a shit team with cap space and take nice 2 year-3 year deal. He is learning, surrounded by a mature group of players, and thriving. So rare this happens. Ask Frank. Ask Trier. Frank was drafted into chaos and he failed to execute. Trier was given a golden ticket/contract and was never to be seen again. Shit happens for many reasons. Not just Knicks either.I know we all excited about his upside and if true the money will come regardless. Im not saying he ownes us a debt of graditude he should repay to his detriment. He, his agent, and the knicks had a plan and he fulfilled/executed his end wonderfully. Relationships that work are rare and I gather this FO, lead by an very smart former agent knows how to lay it all out to everyones benefit.
Maybe what we miss is we don't bring everyone back thus creating salary spots that can be filled. ON the surface Mitch and perhaps Josh could be gone. I don't know how our FO feels about Giannis and at what price. That itself will create massive change.
While there is value in running it back one more year with this core under Brown if there is still a higher ceiling with the same group, one can also say if we don't go to finals with Mitch and Josh, then maybe there is another path?
Same with KAT, OG and Mikal I suppose.I don't see it, but all things I gather are on the table. That also includes at some level and in time Diawa becomming a really good trade chip. Kind of like Deuce with his current contract. Its another reason development is important. They create opportunities (IQ).
I thought the graphic during the SAS game sunday that Spurs get so much production from drafted players while the knicks hardly get any was interesting. They were not critical, just said there were different paths.
With the cap situation I don’t see us keeping our FRP either. Maybe we just kick it down the road because going over that second apron looks like a bad way to go.I said this in another thread. Knicks have TOO MANY young players, with high potential, who would be free agents this Summer.
Diawara
Hukporti
McCullar
JamisonOut of this group, the only one I would be "kind of" ok of letting go is Jamison but Huk, McCullar and Diawara are the next wave that can step up and replace, Mitch, Hart and OG. I think the Knicks FO know this too and, if there isn't a play for Giannis this off season, I can see Rose trading ALL of '26 draft for future picks in order to stay under the cap in order to keep our guys
Hukporti is not an essential must keep player. He's a nice insurance player to have to see if he gets better, but he has not taken a considerable leap to consider him a priority.
McCullar most certainly is. He's waiting his turn and is slept on right now, but the guy is a defensive stud with good fundamentals on both ends of the court. I expect the FO to try and keep him.
I think hukporti has been pretty bad. He seems to have regressed from his rookie year prior to that injury. It’s tough to keep him signed since he’s not eligible for a second round exception deal. There’s always going to be better bigs available for the minimum. As for McCullar, I like him. He brings good energy. But I’m concerned about the lack of shooting or any particular skill on the offensive end. The only true NBA players we have in our young core are Diawara and Kolek. Kolek is worth keeping as a 3rd string PG. And of course Diawara is a stud.
McCullar has offensive skills. He can shoot, he has a handle, he can create and he can dime. He is an NBA player.
And he is an elite defender.
Eventually he will need to show some of those things though. He never lit up summer league or Westchester. His proven skills are limited to defensive effort right now.
Yes he did. You missed it
Come on. He’s shooting below 40% from the field and below 25% from 3pt in his gleague career. It’s only 22 games but still a decent sample size. He is not shooting the ball well in his limited nba career. In summer league he did not do much offensively. As a college player he was good as a super-senior but not a standout. I did not miss anything. He simply hasn’t proven he can shoot yet. He’s an energy guy. Can’t pretend he’s something he’s not. Doesn’t mean he’s not worth keeping around. He is.
One got 3/$33M, the other 4/$63M
martin wrote:2 recent contracts given to Gabe Vincent and Max Strus 3 years ago, within the Deuce performance range?One got 3/$33M, the other 4/$63M
I think the injury helps us with his contract negotiations. Silver lining. I also think we are looking at mid level exception range for both deuce and Mitch. So around 15M per year. Have to ask what teams would offer either player more than that, given the new CBA and apron concerns.
Im not sure Deuce gets starter money. Staring in year three he has been a solid rotational player and spot starter.
Good catch and shooter but lacks some other areas.
He gets another season before he hits as a FA.
Diawara? He is no doubt trending well and he is avg 3.1 pts per. 
Maybe somewhere between the circlejerk frenzy of fans and the logic of reality is the gray area we like to freak out over.
If he is a keeper we'll figure a way to retain him.
McCluler is not part of the rotation nor do I see him in it. Not on this team. Thats not to say he can't or would not do well elsewhere.
Knixkik wrote:All I know is Diawara’s contract needs to be prioritized over anyone else this summer. Because he’s the high upside player and opportunity for growth within the current group.
Knicks can only offer him 120% of his current contract. Do they work with another team to sign something and then to match?
I do wonder what the conversation is like.
martin wrote:Knixkik wrote:All I know is Diawara’s contract needs to be prioritized over anyone else this summer. Because he’s the high upside player and opportunity for growth within the current group.Knicks can only offer him 120% of his current contract. Do they work with another team to sign something and then to match?
I do wonder what the conversation is like.
He’s restricted so I believe the most another team can offer is the MLE and the Knicks can match that amount. I don’t think the 120% factors in here. I think they just negotiate a middle ground with him similar to the contract they did with McBride, whatever this year’s version of that is.