Knicks · I love our FO but they F’ed up our draft (page 2)

BlueKnickers wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:We've retained Mo and Jose. Love the Mo deal and I am fine with the Jose deal if Coach Brown values him that much.

Meanwhile, we added a sniper who will be given rotation minutes if he can deliver.

AFAIK, that's 3 pieces falling into place so far and not insignificant.

I can wait to see the rest.

Not like any of us have a clue what's going on in the war room anyway.

We just won a chip. I'd say we're in good hands. None of us are more equipped to get it done than our FO.

Don't let the information vacuum drive you crazy. It ain't worth it. They've got a plan and we will probably see it all fall into place by the end of SL.

That's about three weeks. Until then, finish that knitting project you left undone during the playoffs.

I’m with you on all those moves and agree we’re in good hands. I just think we’d be better off if we drafted Carr and Reed

I wanted to go over initially too, but the reality is past contenders or champions who went over the second apron had to decimate their rosters permaturely in subsequent seasons with godawfully sh!tty moves because of the constraints that limit your maneuverability once over the 2nd apron.

Whatever their logic in this draft was, it will somehow be related to their aggregated moves which are based on a primary objective:

Protecting the core of the club without having to resort to self-destructive subtractive actions in the seasons after you go over the 2nd apron.

Pipeline players and drafted players come AFTER that objective.

And the NEXT objective will likely be:

What players fill out the roster that can help us repeat NEXT year?

These will still be win now moves while trying to maintain their talent pipeline.

This is why I project Nickel as a rotation player. He's drafted to play now.

Whom they pick up or trade for will likely be about who can play NOW in a push to repeat.

This is a situation where they climbed to the mountain top and their opportunity to repeat with the existing core may be very much dependent upon staying under the 2nd apron.

All the things you are limited by and all of the future penalties that occur if you do go over are about more than Dolan's pocketbook. This is about protecting the core so you can make a dynastic run over the next three seasons. And that means extensions for Brunson, KAT and probably Hart. They are planning for those deals NOW by staying under the apron this year.

Therefore, this is about the FO's ability to modify the roster in upcoming seasons as much as this one.

You go over and flexibility goes out the window for years and it can precipitate a fairly rapid fall out of contention in upcoming seasons if they went over the 2nd and then tried to climb back under it.

I have no idea what they are cooking up, but it is pretty clearly going to be under the 2nd apron. How that influenced their thinking about this draft is not something you nor I have any understanding of yet.

Most of us here are speaking about checkers. This is a multi-year chess game 3-4 years into the future they are playing today.

I think it’s more likely that McCullar cracks the rotation over Nickel. McCullar is 25 and had a good year last year for Westchester. I’d like to see him get an extended look

I can see Deuce being traded perhaps Dadiet and Kolek along with a player like Sochan or Clarkson used in a sign and trade to match a contract for a center. Alvarado, Shamet and whoever we get in the trade for center will be the 8 man rotation with the starters. Then the bench will be made up with whoever we don't trade for that center and with Hukporti, McCuller, and Kayil. Nickle will be a two way

PatCummings wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:We've retained Mo and Jose. Love the Mo deal and I am fine with the Jose deal if Coach Brown values him that much.

Meanwhile, we added a sniper who will be given rotation minutes if he can deliver.

AFAIK, that's 3 pieces falling into place so far and not insignificant.

I can wait to see the rest.

Not like any of us have a clue what's going on in the war room anyway.

We just won a chip. I'd say we're in good hands. None of us are more equipped to get it done than our FO.

Don't let the information vacuum drive you crazy. It ain't worth it. They've got a plan and we will probably see it all fall into place by the end of SL.

That's about three weeks. Until then, finish that knitting project you left undone during the playoffs.

I’m with you on all those moves and agree we’re in good hands. I just think we’d be better off if we drafted Carr and Reed

I wanted to go over initially too, but the reality is past contenders or champions who went over the second apron had to decimate their rosters permaturely in subsequent seasons with godawfully sh!tty moves because of the constraints that limit your maneuverability once over the 2nd apron.

Whatever their logic in this draft was, it will somehow be related to their aggregated moves which are based on a primary objective:

Protecting the core of the club without having to resort to self-destructive subtractive actions in the seasons after you go over the 2nd apron.

Pipeline players and drafted players come AFTER that objective.

And the NEXT objective will likely be:

What players fill out the roster that can help us repeat NEXT year?

These will still be win now moves while trying to maintain their talent pipeline.

This is why I project Nickel as a rotation player. He's drafted to play now.

Whom they pick up or trade for will likely be about who can play NOW in a push to repeat.

This is a situation where they climbed to the mountain top and their opportunity to repeat with the existing core may be very much dependent upon staying under the 2nd apron.

All the things you are limited by and all of the future penalties that occur if you do go over are about more than Dolan's pocketbook. This is about protecting the core so you can make a dynastic run over the next three seasons. And that means extensions for Brunson, KAT and probably Hart. They are planning for those deals NOW by staying under the apron this year.

Therefore, this is about the FO's ability to modify the roster in upcoming seasons as much as this one.

You go over and flexibility goes out the window for years and it can precipitate a fairly rapid fall out of contention in upcoming seasons if they went over the 2nd and then tried to climb back under it.

I have no idea what they are cooking up, but it is pretty clearly going to be under the 2nd apron. How that influenced their thinking about this draft is not something you nor I have any understanding of yet.

Most of us here are speaking about checkers. This is a multi-year chess game 3-4 years into the future they are playing today.

I think it’s more likely that McCullar cracks the rotation over Nickel. McCullar is 25 and had a good year last year for Westchester. I’d like to see him get an extended look

As of now, Nickel is a Knick getting their rookie contact.

Nickel is a 6'7" SF sniper whose role does not overlap with the guards.

McCullar is presently an unsigned restricted free agent.

They are very different players even if McCullar comes back.

Our backcourt at present is:

Brunson
Hart
Jose
Kolek
Deuce

That is possibly what they intend to roll with, but we should hope not as that is a smurf village.

I agree bringing back McCullar is the right move.

He is not all redundant when you have a midget-sized backcourt like we do.

McCullar is a physical swing/combo guard that can defend small forwards and maybe even the occasional frontline player like Hart does. He's actually taller than Hart.

Since Deuce may be packaged in a trade, there is definitely a slot for McCullar if they bring him back.

If both McCullar and Nickel are on the roster, Nickel has an easier path to steady minutes even if I am the biggest advocate for McCullar on this board.

Nickel is a specialist being brought in for immediate impact. He has little competition at his size if he really is the best shooter in the draft.

McCullar is a very well-rounded player with sound fundamentals who may still require time to integrate in a regular role if they bring him back.

Alpha1971 wrote:I can see Deuce being traded perhaps Dadiet and Kolek along with a player like Sochan or Clarkson used in a sign and trade to match a contract for a center. Alvarado, Shamet and whoever we get in the trade for center will be the 8 man rotation with the starters. Then the bench will be made up with whoever we don't trade for that center and with Hukporti, McCuller, and Kayil. Nickle will be a two way

Neither Sochan nor Clarkson are under contract.

PatCummings wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Whatever man. You are speaking hypotheticals that may have been never even on the table. This front office hasn't f'ked up any drafts yet but we able to find some absolute gems very deep. While moving down or out of the lottery altogether. And spending that money on signing real difference makers. Just a total masterclass for anyone paying attention. Oh and as for trading Mikal? You must be joking...Did you not see him absolutely shut guys down in the playoffs? What I saw was guys getting a switch from OG and having Mikal guard them and just looking to pass....

Carr was available at 24. The hypothetical is us trading for Reed at 26. We had a better offer than San Antonio and needed him more

I’m with you on the front office. They’ve been amazing. I just think they goofed on this draft.

I didn’t suggest trading Mikal. But if Cameron Carr fulfills his potential, he’ll have similar defensive traits

Well, that's the hypothetical right there. The IF part. The draft is always hypothetical

BlueKnickers wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:I can see Deuce being traded perhaps Dadiet and Kolek along with a player like Sochan or Clarkson used in a sign and trade to match a contract for a center. Alvarado, Shamet and whoever we get in the trade for center will be the 8 man rotation with the starters. Then the bench will be made up with whoever we don't trade for that center and with Hukporti, McCuller, and Kayil. Nickle will be a two way

Neither Sochan nor Clarkson are under contract.

in the past the Knicks have used a player who was a UFA and signed them just to include in a sign and trade. Did it a few years ago.

aggo wrote:every team that ended up in the second apron had to quickly break the team up and give up assets to shed salaries. and every team 1-2 years after has been in shambles.

25 Boston
25 suns
24 timberwolves

going into the second apron has not been good for teams

if you want to hyperventilate over the second apron, the actual logical thing the front office should've done is to trade Mikal. His salary is 38m and there is a lot of overlap with existing players on the team or FAs that we can sign that would certainly take up less than 38m and have room left over to sign Mitch.

But we know trading Mikal at this point is never happening.

Everyone wants to go over the second apron now but 5 years from now when we’re trying to rebuild with no draft picks they will be lol-Knicks’ing yet again.

Philc1 wrote:

aggo wrote:every team that ended up in the second apron had to quickly break the team up and give up assets to shed salaries. and every team 1-2 years after has been in shambles.

25 Boston
25 suns
24 timberwolves

going into the second apron has not been good for teams

if you want to hyperventilate over the second apron, the actual logical thing the front office should've done is to trade Mikal. His salary is 38m and there is a lot of overlap with existing players on the team or FAs that we can sign that would certainly take up less than 38m and have room left over to sign Mitch.

But we know trading Mikal at this point is never happening.

Everyone wants to go over the second apron now but 5 years from now when we’re trying to rebuild with no draft picks they will be lol-Knicks’ing yet again.

5 years? LOL. People here are already questioning the FO and moves 2 weeks after they assembled the first Championship in 53 years.

ramtour420 wrote:Whatever man. You are speaking hypotheticals that may have been never even on the table. This front office hasn't f'ked up any drafts yet but we able to find some absolute gems very deep. While moving down or out of the lottery altogether. And spending that money on signing real difference makers. Just a total masterclass for anyone paying attention. Oh and as for trading Mikal? You must be joking...Did you not see him absolutely shut guys down in the playoffs? What I saw was guys getting a switch from OG and having Mikal guard them and just looking to pass....

I’m with this guy

Stop the nonsense about trading Mikal. Last year too eg against celts

Championship team cap flexibility > keeping some fans happy over a late 1st or 2nd round draft pick who likely isn't going to play or contribute any time soon

Yeesh. Front office gave us a championship in 5 years. I think they deserve some trust that they know what they are doing.

Alpha1971 wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:I can see Deuce being traded perhaps Dadiet and Kolek along with a player like Sochan or Clarkson used in a sign and trade to match a contract for a center. Alvarado, Shamet and whoever we get in the trade for center will be the 8 man rotation with the starters. Then the bench will be made up with whoever we don't trade for that center and with Hukporti, McCuller, and Kayil. Nickle will be a two way

Neither Sochan nor Clarkson are under contract.

in the past the Knicks have used a player who was a UFA and signed them just to include in a sign and trade. Did it a few years ago.

Re-signing a low-level UFA to a multi-year deal for the purpose of trading them is about the lowest probability event to happen this off-season.

Unless the receiving team is doing us some kind of favor or trying to make a highly complicated package deal with lots of moving parts work, they can cut that deal themselves since they are unrestricted.

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

aggo wrote:every team that ended up in the second apron had to quickly break the team up and give up assets to shed salaries. and every team 1-2 years after has been in shambles.

25 Boston
25 suns
24 timberwolves

going into the second apron has not been good for teams

if you want to hyperventilate over the second apron, the actual logical thing the front office should've done is to trade Mikal. His salary is 38m and there is a lot of overlap with existing players on the team or FAs that we can sign that would certainly take up less than 38m and have room left over to sign Mitch.

But we know trading Mikal at this point is never happening.

Everyone wants to go over the second apron now but 5 years from now when we’re trying to rebuild with no draft picks they will be lol-Knicks’ing yet again.

5 years? LOL. People here are already questioning the FO and moves 2 weeks after they assembled the first Championship in 53 years.

I remember back in the day Mitch was one dimensional the ball movement stopped in his hands and he made no free throws. Now suddenly he’s Olajuwon 3.0

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:May end up being right, but a little premature to call out the FO for fucking up something that hasn't happened yet?

It’s extremely unlikely that we’re keeping Mitch and Shamet. And if I’m choosing between Shamet + Mitch and Shamet + Carr + Reed + more flexibility I’m going with the latter

The second apron math does not work in that Shamet + Carr + Reed scenario. And for a championship level team, grabbing vet mins makes much better sense versus Reed? Knicks flat out NEED to fill 2 roster spots with second round pick mins to just to keep Shamet and fill necessary roster spots.

It 100% works. Here it is. I agree with the vet min and include Precious

PLAYER | 2026-27 SALARY
Karl-Anthony Towns | $57,078,728
OG Anunoby | $39,568,966
Jalen Brunson | $37,739,521
Mikal Bridges | $33,482,145
Josh Hart | $20,923,760
Landry Shamet | $7,050,000
Jose Alvarado | $4,500,000
Cameron Carr (Pick #24) | $2,800,000
Mohamed Diawara | $2,600,000
Tarris Reed Jr. (Pick #26) | $2,600,000
Precious Achiuwa (Vet Min) | $2,460,000
Ariel Hukporti | $2,250,000
Kevin McCullar Jr. | $2,185,633
Tyler Kolek | $2,185,633
Jack Kayil (Two-Way) | $0
Tyler Nickel (Two-Way) | $0
TOTAL PAYROLL | $218,364,626
2ND APRON THRESHOLD | $222,000,000
BUFFER REMAINING | $3,635,374

You are not using correct salary numbers, some are this past year, some are next year. For current players or draft picks.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cba/rookie-s...

https://www.twitter.com/yossigozlan/stat...

I had OG wrong by $3M. A few others are slightly different than your numbers but my numbers are higher in those cases. I have a buffer of over $3M so it still works. I designated Kayal and Nickel as 2 way players which is why they have no salary. I have Shamet with a 3 yr $22M backloaded deal.

Candidly, there is no such thing as my numbers and your numbers. These things are petty much set in stone. Your draft salaries are also incorrect, enough to throw the entirety of the second cap implications.

It’s hard to have a math conversation with wrong data.

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:May end up being right, but a little premature to call out the FO for fucking up something that hasn't happened yet?

It’s extremely unlikely that we’re keeping Mitch and Shamet. And if I’m choosing between Shamet + Mitch and Shamet + Carr + Reed + more flexibility I’m going with the latter

The second apron math does not work in that Shamet + Carr + Reed scenario. And for a championship level team, grabbing vet mins makes much better sense versus Reed? Knicks flat out NEED to fill 2 roster spots with second round pick mins to just to keep Shamet and fill necessary roster spots.

It 100% works. Here it is. I agree with the vet min and include Precious

PLAYER | 2026-27 SALARY
Karl-Anthony Towns | $57,078,728
OG Anunoby | $39,568,966
Jalen Brunson | $37,739,521
Mikal Bridges | $33,482,145
Josh Hart | $20,923,760
Landry Shamet | $7,050,000
Jose Alvarado | $4,500,000
Cameron Carr (Pick #24) | $2,800,000
Mohamed Diawara | $2,600,000
Tarris Reed Jr. (Pick #26) | $2,600,000
Precious Achiuwa (Vet Min) | $2,460,000
Ariel Hukporti | $2,250,000
Kevin McCullar Jr. | $2,185,633
Tyler Kolek | $2,185,633
Jack Kayil (Two-Way) | $0
Tyler Nickel (Two-Way) | $0
TOTAL PAYROLL | $218,364,626
2ND APRON THRESHOLD | $222,000,000
BUFFER REMAINING | $3,635,374

You are not using correct salary numbers, some are this past year, some are next year. For current players or draft picks.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cba/rookie-s...

https://www.twitter.com/yossigozlan/stat...

I had OG wrong by $3M. A few others are slightly different than your numbers but my numbers are higher in those cases. I have a buffer of over $3M so it still works. I designated Kayal and Nickel as 2 way players which is why they have no salary. I have Shamet with a 3 yr $22M backloaded deal.

Candidly, there is no such thing as my numbers and your numbers. These things are petty much set in stone. Your draft salaries are also incorrect, enough to throw the entirety of the second cap implications.

It’s hard to have a math conversation with wrong data.

I was using the 100% number for the 2 FRPs since Rose got Dadiet to take 80% when he was drafted. But even if we go with 120%, the numbers still work. I can also save $1.3M by shifting Kayil to a 2 way and going with a 14 man roster. Is there a chance someone offers Shamet something significantly higher? Absolutely. That’s a real issue for us and if it happens we may need to pivot to Clarkson. I’m no longer convinced we can sign Precious to a vet min deal so that may admittedly be unrealistic

PLAYER,2026-27 SALARY
Karl-Anthony Towns,57078728
OG Anunoby,42500000
Jalen Brunson,37739521
Mikal Bridges,33482145
Josh Hart,20923760
Landry Shamet,7422962
Jose Alvarado,4500000
Cameron Carr (Pick #24),3360000
Tarris Reed Jr. (Pick #26),3120000
Mohamed Diawara,2600000
Precious Achiuwa (Vet Min),2460000
Ariel Hukporti,2250000
Kevin McCullar Jr.,2185633
Jack Kayil (2nd Rd Min),1358084
Tyler Nickel (2nd Rd Min),1358084
TOTAL PAYROLL,221750000
2ND APRON THRESHOLD,222000000
BUFFER REMAINING,250000

NYKBocker wrote:Yeesh. Front office gave us a championship in 5 years. I think they deserve some trust that they know what they are doing.

You would think that. But no f that, we are the fans and we know better. Obviously. Duh

ramtour420 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Yeesh. Front office gave us a championship in 5 years. I think they deserve some trust that they know what they are doing.

You would think that. But no f that, we are the fans and we know better. Obviously. Duh

Same clowns in the media mocking us for signing Brunson 3 years ago now want us to go over the second apron.