Knicks · Idiots who liked the Mo Taylor trade manup! (page 6)

Posted by gunsnewing:

no cos when he does get 30mins he puts up big numbers

Guns look at these stats

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3712/gamelog

Honestly, there are 2 ways about this...He has put up big numbers in limited minutes, and big numbers in big minutes.

Coincidently we won all these games where he got minutes:

14pts/8rebs in 25mins on Mar 18 @ ATL W 106-92
19/7 in 28mins on Mar 6 GSW W 115-99
19/12 in 30mins on Feb 28 LAL W 117-115
10/9 in 32mins on Feb 24 PHI W 113-101
18/9 in 22mins on Feb 16 MIL W 108-90
15/9 in 30mins on Feb 7 @ UTH W 102-99

Then I see games where he barely played and we lost:
20mins on Mar 13 SEA L 80-90
16mins on Mar 4 @ ORL L 89-111

see what I mean? sprinkled in between are a few games where Taylor or Rose played well and Sweetney wasn't needed, but for the most part Sweetney has a much bigger impact on Wins then any other PF on this team. And he's the one making the least money and the youngest!


[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:08:24]

Posted by gunsnewing:

Coincidently we won all these games where he got minutes:

14pts/8rebs in 25mins on Mar 18 @ ATL W 106-92
19/7 in 28mins on Mar 6 GSW W 115-99
19/12 in 30mins on Feb 28 LAL W 117-115
10/9 in 32mins on Feb 24 PHI W 113-101
18/9 in 22mins on Feb 16 MIL W 108-90
15/9 in 30mins on Feb 7 @ UTH W 102-99

Then I see games where he barely played and we lost:
20mins on Mar 13 SEA L 80-90
16mins on Mar 4 @ ORL L 89-111

see what I mean? sprinkled in between are a few games where Taylor or Rose played well and Sweetney wasn't needed, but for the most part Sweetney has a much bigger impact on Wins then any other PF on this team. And he's the one making the least money and the youngest!


[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:08:24]

In two of those games Sweets only got 22 and 25 minutes...All those games are against crappy teams that are under 500. One of the games we lost wth Sweets hardly getting any minutes was against a strong Seattle team and an Orlando team that is 100x better than it was last season.

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Coincidently we won all these games where he got minutes:

14pts/8rebs in 25mins on Mar 18 @ ATL W 106-92
19/7 in 28mins on Mar 6 GSW W 115-99
19/12 in 30mins on Feb 28 LAL W 117-115
10/9 in 32mins on Feb 24 PHI W 113-101
18/9 in 22mins on Feb 16 MIL W 108-90
15/9 in 30mins on Feb 7 @ UTH W 102-99

Then I see games where he barely played and we lost:
20mins on Mar 13 SEA L 80-90
16mins on Mar 4 @ ORL L 89-111

see what I mean? sprinkled in between are a few games where Taylor or Rose played well and Sweetney wasn't needed, but for the most part Sweetney has a much bigger impact on Wins then any other PF on this team. And he's the one making the least money and the youngest!


[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:08:24]

In two of those games Sweets only got 22 and 25 minutes...All those games are against crappy teams that are under 500. One of the games we lost wth Sweets hardly getting any minutes was against a strong Seattle team and an Orlando team that is 100x better than it was last season.

when we lose to good teams it has more to do with the fact that we have no perimeter defenders and no Center and our PG shy away from last shots! not Sweetney who is solid! When Sweetney doesn't play we lose to not only good tesms but bad teams as well! So think about it..who's really the problem here?

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:20:28]

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by joec32033:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Coincidently we won all these games where he got minutes:

14pts/8rebs in 25mins on Mar 18 @ ATL W 106-92
19/7 in 28mins on Mar 6 GSW W 115-99
19/12 in 30mins on Feb 28 LAL W 117-115
10/9 in 32mins on Feb 24 PHI W 113-101
18/9 in 22mins on Feb 16 MIL W 108-90
15/9 in 30mins on Feb 7 @ UTH W 102-99

Then I see games where he barely played and we lost:
20mins on Mar 13 SEA L 80-90
16mins on Mar 4 @ ORL L 89-111

see what I mean? sprinkled in between are a few games where Taylor or Rose played well and Sweetney wasn't needed, but for the most part Sweetney has a much bigger impact on Wins then any other PF on this team. And he's the one making the least money and the youngest!


[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:08:24]

In two of those games Sweets only got 22 and 25 minutes...All those games are against crappy teams that are under 500. One of the games we lost wth Sweets hardly getting any minutes was against a strong Seattle team and an Orlando team that is 100x better than it was last season.

when we lose to good teams it has more to do with the fact that we have no perimeter defenders and no Center and our PG shy away from last shots! not Sweetney who is solid! When Sweetney doesn't play we lose to not only good tesms but bad teams as well! So think about it..who's really the problem here?

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 19:20:28]

ok...you were just blaming all these loses on Mo Taylor taking Sweets minutes. I agree, we have other problems, bigger problems than Mo Taylor.

I personally don't think Sweetney makes that much of a difference out there. He's always in foul trouble and don't get me wrong, he'll have his games where he puts up big numbers but I personally don't think he's doing all that much. I'm so tired of seeing these stat-wise debates on who does what when whose on the court and all this other crap. I watch the games and I sometimes see Sweetney play really well, most of the time he's just another player out there.

Posted by fishmike:
Looking at +/- numbers dont mean much either. He's played in 9 games for the Knicks and is averaging 11 minutes a game. I dont see how thats more telling then the -3.7 in 38 games with the Rockets.

The +/- numbers don't mean he's a Godsend or anything. And you're right, a guy who gets around 11 mpg is not going to be a huge factor one way or the other.

But what the +/- clearly does show is that Taylor is not some kind of poison on the court, which is what gunsnewing has been claiming. What he has been is a solid 8th man who helps the team when he's on the floor with his post game.

As for comparisons with his +/- with the Rockets, it doesn't compute. +/- measures the value a particular player brings to a particular team-- a lot of it depends on who your teammates are, who you usually sub in for, who you usually play with, etc. It's a useful number for comparing the relative values of different players on the same team, but it's not very good for comparing players on different teams.

Posted by nyk4ever:

I personally don't think Sweetney makes that much of a difference out there. He's always in foul trouble and don't get me wrong, he'll have his games where he puts up big numbers but I personally don't think he's doing all that much. I'm so tired of seeing these stat-wise debates on who does what when whose on the court and all this other crap. I watch the games and I sometimes see Sweetney play really well, most of the time he's just another player out there.

keep in mind that Sweetney is what only 22 and this is essentially his rookie season since Layden had him rotting on the bench. He is learning with the increased minutes about how to play nba defense and he's done a fine job and he's not nearly as foul prone as he was last year when he would start and pick up 3 fouls right off the bat.

for those who still think taylor and co are better PFs keep dreaming. they are what they are....we'll find out who is best PF is by the time this season is over.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 03/20/2005 20:29:22]

I dont think anyone is saying he's a poison. I dont even think anyone is denying that in Taylor we got the best player in the deal. My knock on the whole thing is the philosophy of taking back underachieving players with longer deals and bad deals, and giving up picks to do it, especially for a player with redundant skills.

Granted its not a good pick or a 5-6 year contract. Its not that bad. But its a bad philosphy and we have seen this cycle before.

Posted by fishmike:

I dont think anyone is saying he's a poison.

"My problem is the fact that he's playing and having an extremely negative effect on the games!"
- gunsnewing on Taylor

I haven't been arguing against your position here, fishmike. I don't think the trade was as bad as you make it out to be, but I understand where you're coming from.

Would you drop the +/- crap, it means nothing.

It means close to nothing for startes, and absolutley nothing for bench players.

+/- are a product of bad ang good teams. People on bad teams, who play major minutes will have bad +/-'s cause guess what, there teams get outscored cause they loose.

To take an 11 game at like 10 min a game sample and use stast is just plain ignorant, such a small sample space is not telling of anything. Just watch the damn games.

And as a side note, I don't think that an 8th man on a team that sucks can make 9 mil a year, be signed for 2 more years, and have a high 2nd round pick as his price tag.

If you think that an 8th man is worse 9 mil or expiring deals, and a 2nd round pikc, then I can't argue with you.

IT has made this team the mess it is, it was one kind of mess with Layden, and now its a different kind of mess with IT in charge.

And one more thing, expiring contracts are not magic. You think there will be teams jumping to trade us there 20+ allstars for max deals of Penny and TT??? Who do you think we are going to be gettin?
Don't you think we would have to give up more drat picks and take on more long term dead weight in order to turn the stiffs such as TT and Penny into anything valuable?

Just think for yoruseleves for a second and stop swalloing every boldfaced doubletalk/lie IT throws your way. How many times will be change his story before you all realize that he is a fraud?

It is unbeleavable how he gets away with pretty much treatin NY fans as a bunch of morons.

he's a poison because by playing him, Sweetney's developement is being slowed! then when we blow 4th quarter leads which he participates in not sweetney we dont accomplish making the playoffs or developing our young players.

guns.. you like the trade or not? Holy waffles batman. Is he a poison or a "great asset" to have? Take your pick man

poison. he should be rotting on the bench like baker was unless the match up if right. Then he should be traded when his contract becomes valuable if not during this offseason!

Posted by simrud:

Would you drop the +/- crap, it means nothing.

It means close to nothing for startes, and absolutley nothing for bench players.

+/- are a product of bad ang good teams. People on bad teams, who play major minutes will have bad +/-'s cause guess what, there teams get outscored cause they loose.

To take an 11 game at like 10 min a game sample and use stast is just plain ignorant, such a small sample space is not telling of anything. Just watch the damn games.

And as a side note, I don't think that an 8th man on a team that sucks can make 9 mil a year, be signed for 2 more years, and have a high 2nd round pick as his price tag.

If you think that an 8th man is worse 9 mil or expiring deals, and a 2nd round pikc, then I can't argue with you.

IT has made this team the mess it is, it was one kind of mess with Layden, and now its a different kind of mess with IT in charge.

And one more thing, expiring contracts are not magic. You think there will be teams jumping to trade us there 20+ allstars for max deals of Penny and TT??? Who do you think we are going to be gettin?
Don't you think we would have to give up more drat picks and take on more long term dead weight in order to turn the stiffs such as TT and Penny into anything valuable?

Just think for yoruseleves for a second and stop swalloing every boldfaced doubletalk/lie IT throws your way. How many times will be change his story before you all realize that he is a fraud?

It is unbeleavable how he gets away with pretty much treatin NY fans as a bunch of morons.

i have to give this idiot some credit, he sure does know how to make a person laugh

Posted by simrud:

Would you drop the +/- crap, it means nothing.

Let's take a closer look, shall we?

+/- are a product of bad ang good teams. People on bad teams, who play major minutes will have bad +/-'s cause guess what, there teams get outscored cause they loose.

Wrong. +/- measures how much better the team plays with a player on the court, vs. off of it. Suppose there's a good player, Smith, on a bad team. Suppose that whenever Smith is on the court, the team gets outscored by 10, and when he's off, the team gets outscored by 20. That comes out to -10 - (-20) = +10. Now suppose there's a good player named Jones on a good team. Whenever Jones is on the court, his team outscores the opposition by 20, and whenever he sits, his team outscores the opposition by 10. That's 20 - 10 = +10. So Smith and Jones get the same ranking from +/-, even though one is on a bad team and one is on a good team. It doesn't matter how their teams do overall.

To take an 11 game at like 10 min a game sample and use stast is just plain ignorant, such a small sample space is not telling of anything.

You'd be right if I were using Taylor's +/- thus far to estimate what his +/- will look like in 100+ games as a Knick. But I'm not using his +/- stats to predict how well he'll do in the future; I'm only using them to evaluate how he's done so far. So this is not a question of estimating, but straightforward measuring.

For example, suppose we take a sample of 3 posters on this forum, and we find that their average weight is 200 lbs. If we use this small sample to estimate that the average weight of every poster to this forum is about 200 lbs, we'll be in trouble, because the sample size is so small that the variance is going to be incredibly high. But if we just want to ask what the average weight of the 3 sampled posters is, obviously, the sample size will not matter. We just go ahead and do the calculations, find the average is 200, and that's that.

That's what I've done in this thread. gunsnewing claimed Taylor has been terrible on the court so far as a Knick, but I observed that his +/- as a Knick so far is a quite good +9.9. 100+ games from now, Taylor's +/- very well could be something average like +1.6, but that is not what we're talking about. We are talking specifically about the games he's played so far. In those games, his +/- is +9.9, and the sample size does not matter-- we are not estimating, we are just measuring.

If you want to talk about bad use of samples, look no further than gunsnewing complaining about a couple of bad 4th quarters to come to the conclusion that Taylor's production so far as a Knick has been terrible. That's only looking at roughly 10 minutes of court time out of about 110. That is bad use of sample statistics. What I have been doing is taking all 110 of those minutes into account, so my claims do not suffer from poor sample sizes.

It is unbeleavable how he gets away with pretty much treatin NY fans as a bunch of morons.

You weren't talking about yourself here, were you?

Wow this Mo thread really has some legs, doesn't it? It's an excellent discussion.

Here are my 2 cents: I'm in the camp that says the Mo trade wasn't that big of a deal either way for the franchise, but was a real kick in the teeth for fans. A lot of us bought Isiah's "retooling" efforts toward building a team that could win more games this year than last while still developing a younger core for thte future. Well this was working fine in November and December, but as we all know too well, crashed and burned big-time in January. A lot of us accepted this, and switched into the "rebuilding" mode. It was a good try, Isiah, it didn't hold up, that's life, we're still with you, but let's shift gears and really rebuild this mother.

Okay, so the Nazr trade is ideal in this regard (in my eyes, I know not in everyone's) because he was exposed as a guy you keep to play a role now but not to rebuild with. 2 #1's was great for me, I don't care about having to take on Malik to gain them. But then . . . the Mo trade. Exactly what does that do to help with rebuilding? He's not a good player, he's way way overpaid, we don't need him at his position, we gave up a #2 with it, we lost 2 stiffs but added a year of contract. Then, perversely enough, the guy has a couple of good spurts to help us win games that we had finally accepted that we needed to lose to gain a better draft position so we can really rebuild. THAT'S why i really dislike the whole thing.

I'm not gonna go bonkers over it, I still love my Knicks and still want us to lose the rest of this year, get a great lottery pick and a good late 1st round one, and really rebuild with those 2, Sweets, Ariza, Craw, Marbs and maybe Butler or a LLE/MLE. I think the Mo trade was a bit of a slap in the face to fans who are hanging in and dealing with the shift from retooling to rebuilding. I think you have to have the guts to tank this season and really focus on rebuilding.

I think it remains to be seen whether or not mo t is a good player.

other than that, it wasn't a bad trade.

Give it a rest. He's done more in the short time he's had here than moochie and vinnie combined.

Are we accountants of fans of the game.

Can he ball? if yes, why get so worked up about it.

Ohhh, I can find a # of posts which would lead one to believe that Mo T is poison. He really isn't, however, it's still just a bad trade. Why do people think Moochie's expiring deal would have been that much better an asset than Mo Ts? B/c it's bigger? It just means we would have taken back a larger contract in return. Both players aren't very good, so who the hell is gonna give up a lot for them? So why couldn't we have just ridden with Moochie for the rest of the time. Neither players were helping us. In fact, I think Moochie helped A LITTLE more. It's not an end of the world kind of deal, but it's still terrible.

Again, I don't hate Mo T. I think he's a nice scorer down low and can be helpful at certain times. However, so can Sweetney, so I really don't see the point in having him. He doesn't do anything else, and he's a bad rebounder.

redundant.

he does the same thing as our 2nd year player we're trying to develop and at 5X the cost.

we lost flexibility THIS summer for a player that will hinder sweetney's development.

if there was a $9 mil defensive SF out there, or a $9 mil backup PG, or a $9 mil jumpshooter, we should've made that deal instead b/c it give us something we don't have. but a $9 mil PF that's similar to what we already have AND still doesn't play defense is redundant.

Posted by djsunyc:

redundant.

he does the same thing as our 2nd year player we're trying to develop and at 5X the cost.

we lost flexibility THIS summer for a player that will hinder sweetney's development.

if there was a $9 mil defensive SF out there, or a $9 mil backup PG, or a $9 mil jumpshooter, we should've made that deal instead b/c it give us something we don't have. but a $9 mil PF that's similar to what we already have AND still doesn't play defense is redundant.

Redundant is when everyone says that we lost all this flexibility and don't even give an inking of how it should've/could've been used....

once again, I'll drop a post that I already posted but everyone seemed to ignore...

I don't get it...the player that makes the MOST in the NBA right now is SHaq......Is he going somewhere?
Next is Dikembe...we already got rid of him once...
Allan is number 3...we don't have to trade for him....
Webber may be available at 4, but do you really want him now? Is that the type of player you want to exchange the contracts for?
KG is number 5 and he may be the only realistic option based on the far out fantasy world we are living in now.
Kidd makes the sixth most......enough said, he isn't coming here if Marbury is here...
Our Own Penny Hardaway is #7
Are Walker and Rahim the type of players you trade these contracts for? Wait, they are BOTH FA's so they can be signed and traded here for $20 million and 17 mil in cap filler...
Next is Steph, he is already here....should we trade with ourselves for him?
How about Big Z, an injury prone center who is slow and also a FA...I am sure Cleveland will sign him for 20 mil just to send him to us for contracts....maybe they can package Z and Gooden and McInnis and get back our trash and start over...
Ray Allen makes 14.625 mil (just like the last 7 guys starting at Penny)..he is on the wrong side of 30 and wants a BIG raise.
Is Philly moving Iverson for garbage and starting over?
Maybe Mike Finley.....he is exactly what we need, a 2 gurd/SF, aging with 3 years left on his tract....
Hill, KVH, Rose and Spree and TMAC all make the same $14.5 roughly...Besides McGrady, should we get rid of the "prized possessions for these guys? I am sure their teams have an extra 20 mil in dead weight like we do.
I guess we can always hope SA wants to trade Duncan and another 5 or 6 guys to us so they can have some cap space to TOTALLY start over...
Maybe the Lakers after this season are ready to trade Kobe....? Maybe?
Eddie Jones and Brina Grant can come here to play....that would be nice...but they are already close to expiring...so we are just trading names now...
We already have TT, so he is out....
Jamison and Carter and the rest of these guys make less that 13 mil...so now we are talking about 25 mil in cap filler...
Maybe Nowitzki, Finley and Stack for TT and Penny would work...I mean Dallas is always almost there but never quite there anyway...I'm sure they'd see that as equal value in rebuilding.
The TOP 30 contracts are rounded out by Paul Pierce, Damon Stoudemire and Baron Davis. Pierce and Davis are on teams with lower pay rolls already, and Damon is a FA...feel like paying him 20 mi?

Seriously....some times too much is too much and it gets ridiculous.we are talking about trading the 11 and 12 guys on our bench for the 10th guy off our bench now.


Someone please tell me where we were going with all this flexibility!!!

The only person that has even close to a valid point is fish, about this trade going against the philosophy Zeke said he was trying to follow...But even that I can come up with an argument for...So please tell me where we were going with this lost flexibility!