>>But after adding all this payroll...
"adding" exactly how much payroll?
Posted by misterearl:
... most annoying of all, trading all our lottery picks
How many lottery picks has Isiah traded?
1 too many
Posted by misterearl:
>>But after adding all this payroll...
"adding" exactly how much payroll?
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm
Posted by misterearl:
... most annoying of all, trading all our lottery picks
How many lottery picks has Isiah traded?
http://www.hoopshype.com/general_managers/isiah_thomas.htm
lol complete disregard of my entire point, which was not only about lottery picks. Prime example of falling into a trap because words were twisted out of context. observe and learn folks
To answer your question about forgiving IT for his Bird comments Earl, I never had to forgive because I was never mad at him to begin with. I actually agree with him to an extent. Bird DID get much of his fame from being the WHITE great player. While his black contemporaries with just as much talent and flare might have received less individual attention because there were several of them and they were all black. That is just how things worked back then, still work that way now, even though I would "like to believe" they don't, and hopefully that’s not how things will work in the future.
Racism is a complicated issue, just this morning I picked and started reading The Face in The Well; it’s a great read and very insightful. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I think it’s a worthwhile read nevertheless. And there is a def a great discussion to be had if there is to improvement, as racism is no doubt still very much part of our society today.
In summary, what I’m trying to get across to you is that I hate IT because he is a shitty GM, and generally a snake. I could care less if he is black, white, purple, homosexual, or whatever. If the Knicks were winning today I would be the first one to praise him despite not liking him as a person .But a snake and a bad snake at that is just not cutting it. The only person benefiting from IT is IT.
Wow...
>> If the Knicks were winning today I would be the first one to praise him despite not liking him as a person. But a snake and a bad snake at that is just not cutting it. The only person benefiting from IT is IT.
Simrud - so let me get this straight... it doesn't matter what kind of person you are, so long as you win?
Do you like Larry Brown as a person?
>>gunsnewing - its just that when you say "White America" it comes across sounding like you're talking about every white person in america when in reality anyone who dislikes Isiah because he is black is in the minority
gunsnewing - all I'm attempting to illustrate interms of The Bird Comment, is there were TWO different reactions. One, from White folks and another from Black folks.
This is nothing more than a petite exercise in perception. Try it.
Ask a White person and then ask a Black person, in all honesty, to remark on how the Bird coment made them feel and I think you will discover TWO distinct opinions. Then again, if the circle of people yhou have serious discussions with is restricted to only people that you share the same views with...
well, you will wind up with a homogenous response.
I look forward to winning more than 23 basketball games so the conversation can drift back towards rotations and minutes.
I am your evil conscience
i thought at the time of that incident that there were 2 relatively small camps of people with polar oppossite reactions to it - 1. that bird truly was overrated and that rodman and isiah had spoken the truth; and 2. that isiah and rodman were evil for speaking sacrelige about the unassailable basketball god. but it seemed the majority of people thought that it was a dumb comment by rodman, but made in a moment of total frustration after a brutal playoff series loss as a rookie who hadn't become media-savvy yet, and that isiah had backed him up to protect him as a teammate.
Marv - your recap is welcome and appreciated. The context of the Bird comments, along with Rodman, is generally overlooked in the post-comment equation.
I'm not here to defend Isiah either way. My plea was for people to look at their personal bias in their assesment of whatever "damage" Isiah Thomas has inflicted on this franchise.
Trading ONE first round pick, that turns out to be lottery due a sabotaged 23 win season, is NOT grounds for his beheading any more than his intelligent draft selections of Channing Frye and David Lee is a reason to throw a parade down Broadway.
Once the all racks are rolled out, and players compete for minutes and jobs...
Time will tell what Isiah has wrought.
Posted by misterearl:
Marv - your recap is welcome and appreciated. The context of the Bird comments, along with Rodman, is generally overlooked in the post-comment equation.
I'm not here to defend Isiah either way. My plea was for people to look at their personal bias in their assesment of whatever "damage" Isiah Thomas has inflicted on this franchise.
Trading ONE first round pick, that turns out to be lottery due a sabotaged 23 win season, is NOT grounds for his beheading any more than his intelligent draft selections of Channing Frye and David Lee is a reason to throw a parade down Broadway.
Once the all racks are rolled out, and players compete for minutes and jobs...
Time will tell what Isiah has wrought.
3 first rounders. 2 in the Marbury deal 1 for Curry. the swap if it happens adds to the deficit in draft position due to Zeke's maneuvers.
and taking a 5th pf at 30 when NY needed depth at 3 and guys like Gomes was on the board was the antithesis of intelligent.
[Edited by - McK1 on 06-25-2006 11:08 PM][Edited by - McK1 on 06-25-2006 11:08 PM]
I have a problem with any group, but especially white people, who almost instantaneously utter the phrase "playing the race card" whenever the topic of racism is brought up. I am actually going to write ana rticle about it witht he hopes that some of you will begin to 'get it'.
to be brief, racism is not a card I can play in some sort of game. Racism is an unfortunate part of reality that I am FORCED to deal with every day of my life. I don't expect white people to fully grasp this, as this is just an uncomfortable subject that they avoid most of the time, and they/you often don't see it as a part of their reality. In any case, white people are not FORCED to deal with it on a daily basis and therefore don't. I'm not mad about that because if I could I would do the same thing. But I can't, because I am black and racism and racists don't allow me to just like, forget that (not that I'd want to necasarily). I suppose I could draw some parallels between racism and sexism, but this is a site of mostly men, and I dont know if any of you are foward thinking enough to imagine what it must be like to be a woman in a sexist society.
what some of you serially fail to grasp is this (and we have been over this before): the argument is being made that race is a factor in why a certain set of thinga happen. Not that race is the ONLY factor.
If I say race was a factor in Steve Nash's selection as MVP, some of you translate that as: Steve Nash only got it because he's white. As if I am saying he is the bball equivalent of Travis Knight and his whiteness was the only factor. I provided comparative data sighting that Steve Nash, was by far, the statistically weakest MVP candidate to ever win it, and he won it twice. What did I get in response: blah, blah, blah, "playing the race card."
Last but not least. The whole notion of playing the race card implies that I, or the person raising the issue is being disingenuous. Killa why did you do that? Racism made me do it. Why did you stab that lady? White people made me do it.
When you accuse someone of 'playing the race card' thats what you are saying. Its like calling someone a communist for saying this country should pull out of Iraq. Point blank, try to understand the society you live in, and try to think about the things that you say. The right wing is good at making up slogans that describe their viewpoints and make no mistake, this is a right-wing slogan. Here are some other popula right-wing slogans:
"Cut and Run" -to anyone who wants to withdraw the troops and end this stupid war.
"Thats Unamerican" whenever you say something against the right wing agenda.
"Soft on Crime" If you suggest that the drug laws that put non-violent, first time offenders for 10+ years for 1 ounce of cocaine.
"Pro-Life" this means they are anti-abortion, but Pro-Life sounds so much better right?
"Hate us because we're free" lame ass explanation for why terrorists attack the US, as if more plausible and legitmate reasons do not exist.
"Playing the race card" any time racism is brought up as a way to keep the possibility that racism might play a factor in something, out of the discussion.
Please stop saying this. If you disagree, disagree based on facts on evidence, don't accuse the other person of "playing the race card."
how this thread went from an examination of some of Isiahs past playing/business relationships to lay off the poor 7 figure earning black man whose basketball decisions are relevant is mind-bobbling
[Edited by - McK1 on 06-25-2006 11:16 PM]
Posted by McK1:
how this thread went from an examination of some of Isiahs past playing/business relationships to lay off the poor 7 figure earning black man whose basketball decisions are relevant is mind-bobbling
[Edited by - McK1 on 06-25-2006 11:16 PM]
when did that happen? look at how I responded to your posts? I just feel the need to challenge the knee-jerk "playing the race card' mantra that ALWAYS seems to pop up.
Posted by Killa4luv:
when did that happen?
I'd say with this post:
misterearl wrote:
nyk4ever, gunewing and simrud - There is no such thing as a race card.
>>Isiah has been horrible at everything he's done with basketball...
Simply not true
Just curioius, how many of you three forgive Isiah for his comments on Larry Bird?
Posted by Killa4luv:
I have a problem with any group, but especially white people, who almost instantaneously utter the phrase "playing the race card" whenever the topic of racism is brought up. I am actually going to write ana rticle about it witht he hopes that some of you will begin to 'get it'.
to be brief, racism is not a card I can play in some sort of game. Racism is an unfortunate part of reality that I am FORCED to deal with every day of my life. I don't expect white people to fully grasp this, as this is just an uncomfortable subject that they avoid most of the time, and they/you often don't see it as a part of their reality. In any case, white people are not FORCED to deal with it on a daily basis and therefore don't. I'm not mad about that because if I could I would do the same thing. But I can't, because I am black and racism and racists don't allow me to just like, forget that (not that I'd want to necasarily). I suppose I could draw some parallels between racism and sexism, but this is a site of mostly men, and I dont know if any of you are foward thinking enough to imagine what it must be like to be a woman in a sexist society.
what some of you serially fail to grasp is this (and we have been over this before): the argument is being made that race is a factor in why a certain set of thinga happen. Not that race is the ONLY factor.
If I say race was a factor in Steve Nash's selection as MVP, some of you translate that as: Steve Nash only got it because he's white. As if I am saying he is the bball equivalent of Travis Knight and his whiteness was the only factor. I provided comparative data sighting that Steve Nash, was by far, the statistically weakest MVP candidate to ever win it, and he won it twice. What did I get in response: blah, blah, blah, "playing the race card."
Last but not least. The whole notion of playing the race card implies that I, or the person raising the issue is being disingenuous. Killa why did you do that? Racism made me do it. Why did you stab that lady? White people made me do it.
When you accuse someone of 'playing the race card' thats what you are saying. Its like calling someone a communist for saying this country should pull out of Iraq. Point blank, try to understand the society you live in, and try to think about the things that you say. The right wing is good at making up slogans that describe their viewpoints and make no mistake, this is a right-wing slogan. Here are some other popula right-wing slogans:
"Cut and Run" -to anyone who wants to withdraw the troops and end this stupid war.
"Thats Unamerican" whenever you say something against the right wing agenda.
"Soft on Crime" If you suggest that the drug laws that put non-violent, first time offenders for 10+ years for 1 ounce of cocaine.
"Pro-Life" this means they are anti-abortion, but Pro-Life sounds so much better right?
"Hate us because we're free" lame ass explanation for why terrorists attack the US, as if more plausible and legitmate reasons do not exist.
"Playing the race card" any time racism is brought up as a way to keep the possibility that racism might play a factor in something, out of the discussion.
Please stop saying this. If you disagree, disagree based on facts on evidence, don't accuse the other person of "playing the race card."
Hey Killa, I definitely appreciate your post. I'm a psychology grad student and I've read a lot about (and taken a graduate seminar course in) research in social psychology on stereotyping and racism. The prevalence of racism and sexism and the extent of White people's defensiveness on the topic (I'm NOT referring to any specific person here) are frustrating.
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by McK1:
how this thread went from an examination of some of Isiahs past playing/business relationships to lay off the poor 7 figure earning black man whose basketball decisions are relevant is mind-bobbling
[Edited by - McK1 on 06-25-2006 11:16 PM]
when did that happen? look at how I responded to your posts? I just feel the need to challenge the knee-jerk "playing the race card' mantra that ALWAYS seems to pop up.
I definitely feel where you're coming from on this, Killa. Your last post broke it down completely.
Posted by Killa4luv:
If I say race was a factor in Steve Nash's selection as MVP, some of you translate that as: Steve Nash only got it because he's white. As if I am saying he is the bball equivalent of Travis Knight and his whiteness was the only factor. I provided comparative data sighting that Steve Nash, was by far, the statistically weakest MVP candidate to ever win it, and he won it twice. What did I get in response: blah, blah, blah, "playing the race card."
Past precedence disagrees that you have a point with this one, which I think is why you get this response. Your vote was Kobe Bryant, who played for the 7th seed in the west. Yet only one MVP candidate ever won got it on a team with such a poor record. Furthermore, when Steve Nash wins it, why do you have to make a post about him winning because of his skin color? The NBA is mostly minority. If people really had such a problem with minorities as you seem to indicate, wouldn't they just watch hockey?
Racism is an unfortunate part of reality that I am FORCED to deal with every day of my life.
Part of this is your own doing, because you're bringing it up in situations when nobody else is mentioning it (not this topic). You may view that you're just bringing the truth out into the air, but consider this... what if people TRULY weren't consciously thinking about race? Wouldn't you be the one stirring the pot?
The main point is here is some people seem to think that views are created and shaped by a person's race. I sure hope not, because mine aren't. I think most people here aren't either. I just don't know how anyone could be a fan of a sport with such diversity and then be racist. The other main point I'd like to bring is up, is honestly, and I can speak for a lot of us, we'd be very happy if the topic of race would stop coming up so much. Most people just don't really care. I don't know anyone in my personal life who openly (or even covertly, that I've noticed) that seems to make any sort of decisions based on race. To be honest, most of the time when I see someone, and I think of physical features, color is not in the top 5 or top 10 things that pops into my mind. I think others would feel the same way.
SOLACE: Furthermore, when Steve Nash wins it, why do you have to make a post about him winning because of his skin color?
He made an extreme effort to make it clear this was NOT what he was saying.
KILLA: what some of you serially fail to grasp is this (and we have been over this before): the argument is being made that race is a factor in why a certain set of thinga happen. Not that race is the ONLY factor.
If I say race was a factor in Steve Nash's selection as MVP, some of you translate that as: Steve Nash only got it because he's white.
I'd have to agree with everything Killa said (except for the part about picking Kobe--I'd have picked other players but that a different topic).
[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 06-26-2006 07:50 AM]
Strom Thurmond, Is That YOU?
Killa - outstanding synopsis of the mythical and mis-played "race card"
>>The main point is here is some people seem to think that views are created and shaped by a person's race. I sure hope not, because mine aren't. I think most people here aren't either. I just don't know how anyone could be a fan of a sport with such diversity and then be racist.
Solace - being a fan of a franchise and having sophisticated political views are NOT intertwined. How can someone be a fan and be a racist?
The same way a slave "master" could hold another person in bondage for forced free labor and then turn around and rape the women in the night.
I don't think there was much bleating about Black people being less than human at those salacious, and well-documented moments, in world history.
How could Strom Thurmond keep a relationship with a Black woman and his daughter secret for decades, while legislating Segregation?
Of COURSE the perception of Isiah Thomas is tainted by his race. Color-blindness, dating from Jackie Robinson to Omar Minaya and Wilie Randolph, is a stone cold myth.
Having said that, I bleed orange and blue.
