Off Topic · OT: Explain the Yankee pitching downfall (page 1)

About five years ago the pitching staff was so great that Remiro Mendoza (who might be our ACE right now) was the seventh starting pitcher (2nd backup starter). I know there have been some injuries this year, but the pitching staff has gradually and steadily deteriorated over the past few years. What are your thoughts about how this happened?

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-05-2007 12:52 AM]

torre forgot how to use his bullpen 3-4 years ago. beyond that injuries man. they just cant stay healthy

I'm not a Yankee fan, but with Mussina, Wang and Hughes heading your rotation, the only thing you have to do is wait for them to get healthy. The Yankees will be fine this season.

Posted by Ira:

I'm not a Yankee fan, but with Mussina, Wang and Hughes heading your rotation, the only thing you have to do is wait for them to get healthy. The Yankees will be fine this season.

Maybe, but Mussina would have been like our sixth best starter five years ago. Does this team look like it can beat Boston once Mussina, Wang, and Hughes are back? Wang's the only one I'd have decent confidence in against Boston.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-05-2007 08:36 AM]

The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

We had a real nice staff in 2002.

But I don't think our staff this year is quite as bad as it looks so far. Lots of injuries have caused our more experienced starters to be behind schedule and caused us to put a lot of unknowns out on the mound. We had an old staff in 2002 but they stayed healthy. If our staff this year, which is actually younger, can get/stay healthy they'll be fine. Wang, Mussina and Petite are a solid core and if Igawa/Clemens/Hughes or another youngster can fill in that will give us enough starting depth.

2002                                     age
Mike Mussina	18	10	4.05     33
David Wells	19	7	3.75     39
Roger Clemens	13	6	4.35     40
Orlando Hernandez 8	5	3.64     32?
Andy Pettitte	13	5	3.27     30

2006

Andy Pettitte	1	1	3.00     35
Kei Igawa	2	1	7.63     28
Chien-Ming Wang	0	2	5.84     27
Mike Mussina	1	1	5.73     38
Phil Hughes	1	1	3.38     21

[Edited by - oldfan on 05-05-2007 10:45 AM]

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

They suck. Is that enough for an explaination.

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

I agree with success but I think Stottlemyre has had some live arms in his stable and has done nothing with them...Contreras emergence in Chicago was a result of El Duque advising change in Contreras back to what made him successful in Cuba...Stottlemyre changed Contreras pitching motion when he came to the Yankees and he wasn't successful...I really don't buy that he couldn't pitch in NY stuff..He pitched masterfully in the world series which is a grander stage than an everyday game in NY...Mike and Mad Dog thought he couldn't pitch against the Red Sox...He shut them down in the playoffs...Vasquez gave the White Sox quality innings last year...But overall, the Yankees have been successful, but I think they could have been dominant if their pitching was better managed...

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

I agree with success but I think Stottlemyre has had some live arms in his stable and has done nothing with them...Contreras emergence in Chicago was a result of El Duque advising change in Contreras back to what made him successful in Cuba...Stottlemyre changed Contreras pitching motion when he came to the Yankees and he wasn't successful...I really don't buy that he couldn't pitch in NY stuff..He pitched masterfully in the world series which is a grander stage than an everyday game in NY...Mike and Mad Dog thought he couldn't pitch against the Red Sox...He shut them down in the playoffs...Vasquez gave the White Sox quality innings last year...But overall, the Yankees have been successful, but I think they could have been dominant if their pitching was better managed...

Mel was largely responsible for Doc Goodens down fall. I remember him trying to make Gooden a ground ball pitcher. Just stupid on his part here is a player who is dominating batters with a high fast ball and he was trying to make him get his pitches down so he could get ground ball outs.

Of course total blame should be place on Mel Doc was crazy to.

Well - I guess we just disagree.

I think you under estimate how hard it is to be dominant in baseball.In football and basketball good teams can win 70% or even 80% of their games. In baseball good teams win 60%. Even a team that is favored in every playoff series is usually not going to win 3 series in a row - it's just probability.

As far as Contreras maybe your analysis is correct but it's not nearly as clear to me. Maybe the guy just needed some time to adjust to the U.S. Maybe he was just a lot more comfortable in Chicago. El Duque certainly could have been the difference he probably had a lot more knowledge of his history and a lot better understanding or what he was going through.

Overall though I'll stand by the fact that the Yankees have been one of the top teams with one of the top pitching staff for 10+ years and I think it's harder to do then you think.

Posted by OldFan:

Well - I guess we just disagree.

I think you under estimate how hard it is to be dominant in baseball.In football and basketball good teams can win 70% or even 80% of their games. In baseball good teams win 60%. Even a team that is favored in every playoff series is usually not going to win 3 series in a row - it's just probability.

As far as Contreras maybe your analysis is correct but it's not nearly as clear to me. Maybe the guy just needed some time to adjust to the U.S. Maybe he was just a lot more comfortable in Chicago. El Duque certainly could have been the difference he probably had a lot more knowledge of his history and a lot better understanding or what he was going through.

Overall though I'll stand by the fact that the Yankees have been one of the top teams with one of the top pitching staff for 10+ years and I think it's harder to do then you think.

When you're throwing around all the money the Yankees throw around, shouldn't you expect to have a better pitching staff than just another ordinary above average team? That's basically what we've had for the past 3 or 4 years.

Posted by Vmart:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

I agree with success but I think Stottlemyre has had some live arms in his stable and has done nothing with them...Contreras emergence in Chicago was a result of El Duque advising change in Contreras back to what made him successful in Cuba...Stottlemyre changed Contreras pitching motion when he came to the Yankees and he wasn't successful...I really don't buy that he couldn't pitch in NY stuff..He pitched masterfully in the world series which is a grander stage than an everyday game in NY...Mike and Mad Dog thought he couldn't pitch against the Red Sox...He shut them down in the playoffs...Vasquez gave the White Sox quality innings last year...But overall, the Yankees have been successful, but I think they could have been dominant if their pitching was better managed...

Mel was largely responsible for Doc Goodens down fall. I remember him trying to make Gooden a ground ball pitcher. Just stupid on his part here is a player who is dominating batters with a high fast ball and he was trying to make him get his pitches down so he could get ground ball outs.

Of course total blame should be place on Mel Doc was crazy to.

Mel was the pitching coach during all Goodens successful years also. Why was it his fault when Gooden failed but he gets no credit for his success? I think Gooden's sinking his nose down onto a straw had a lot more to do with his failure then Mel trying to teach him a sinker.

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by Vmart:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

I agree with success but I think Stottlemyre has had some live arms in his stable and has done nothing with them...Contreras emergence in Chicago was a result of El Duque advising change in Contreras back to what made him successful in Cuba...Stottlemyre changed Contreras pitching motion when he came to the Yankees and he wasn't successful...I really don't buy that he couldn't pitch in NY stuff..He pitched masterfully in the world series which is a grander stage than an everyday game in NY...Mike and Mad Dog thought he couldn't pitch against the Red Sox...He shut them down in the playoffs...Vasquez gave the White Sox quality innings last year...But overall, the Yankees have been successful, but I think they could have been dominant if their pitching was better managed...

Mel was largely responsible for Doc Goodens down fall. I remember him trying to make Gooden a ground ball pitcher. Just stupid on his part here is a player who is dominating batters with a high fast ball and he was trying to make him get his pitches down so he could get ground ball outs.

Of course total blame should be place on Mel Doc was crazy to.

Mel was the pitching coach during all Goodens successful years also. Why was it his fault when Gooden failed but he gets no credit for his success? I think Gooden's sinking his nose down onto a straw had a lot more to do with his failure then Mel trying to teach him a sinker.

What Gooden did in his first two years in the league was all what he learned for minors and his high school teachings. Mel after Goodens 24-4 Cy Young year messed with Goodens mechanics to get him to throw ground balls, after that messing around with Gooden's technique he became less dominant and eventually he even lost his high fast ball started visiting the DL more often also. He should have let Gooden throw the way he did because there was nothing wrong with him. For some reason Mel wanted Gooden to throw more ground ball outs to help Gooden have a longer career by basically saving his arm by throwing more ground out rather than striking players out. I found that to be a mistake because that means he would have changed Clemens, Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson too. One thing any one will tell you is nothing is wrong don't try to fix it. You don't F around with domination, and Gooden was flat out dominating.

I'm not gonna blame Mel totally because Gooden had his problems too. But Mel was partly responsible for the deterioration of Doc Gooden.

The D.O.P.E. did it! The Director Of Performance Enhancement, that is! And yes that is his official title.

I gotta say the only thing worse than saying I'm the D.O.P.E. for the Yankees is that I couldn't cut it as a D.O.P.E. and am now an ex-D.O.P.E.

Posted by Vmart:

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by Vmart:

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by OldFan:

Posted by holfresh:


The Yankees organization as a whole was and still is bad at evaluating pitching talent...Mel Stottlemyre was a horrible pitching coach...Contreras should never have been traded...he is a horse that could have been a number two or three for a long time...They paid Vasquez way too much money, who also is a horse and could have been a number 3 to 4 starter for you...With Wang, they could have had a good 2,3,4 combination making a run at a top flight number one starter and a young pitcher at the back end of the staff...With Mussina, that could have been a decent staff...I think Cashman is a good GM but has done a bad job over the years with the pitching staff...

While I agree Contreras has looked great in Chicago - he wasn't doing anything here and there is no guarantee he would have. For an organization that is "horrible" at evaluating pitching talent they've done a pretty good job - as we've had good pitching for 10+ years. As the Knicks have shown even with the money you still have to make a fair amount of smart decisions to put together a good team. I agree the yanks have made mistakes with pitchers but I think a lot of that is it's hard to find guys who can pitch in NY and overall you can't argue with their success.

I agree with success but I think Stottlemyre has had some live arms in his stable and has done nothing with them...Contreras emergence in Chicago was a result of El Duque advising change in Contreras back to what made him successful in Cuba...Stottlemyre changed Contreras pitching motion when he came to the Yankees and he wasn't successful...I really don't buy that he couldn't pitch in NY stuff..He pitched masterfully in the world series which is a grander stage than an everyday game in NY...Mike and Mad Dog thought he couldn't pitch against the Red Sox...He shut them down in the playoffs...Vasquez gave the White Sox quality innings last year...But overall, the Yankees have been successful, but I think they could have been dominant if their pitching was better managed...

Mel was largely responsible for Doc Goodens down fall. I remember him trying to make Gooden a ground ball pitcher. Just stupid on his part here is a player who is dominating batters with a high fast ball and he was trying to make him get his pitches down so he could get ground ball outs.

Of course total blame should be place on Mel Doc was crazy to.

Mel was the pitching coach during all Goodens successful years also. Why was it his fault when Gooden failed but he gets no credit for his success? I think Gooden's sinking his nose down onto a straw had a lot more to do with his failure then Mel trying to teach him a sinker.

What Gooden did in his first two years in the league was all what he learned for minors and his high school teachings. Mel after Goodens 24-4 Cy Young year messed with Goodens mechanics to get him to throw ground balls, after that messing around with Gooden's technique he became less dominant and eventually he even lost his high fast ball started visiting the DL more often also. He should have let Gooden throw the way he did because there was nothing wrong with him. For some reason Mel wanted Gooden to throw more ground ball outs to help Gooden have a longer career by basically saving his arm by throwing more ground out rather than striking players out. I found that to be a mistake because that means he would have changed Clemens, Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson too. One thing any one will tell you is nothing is wrong don't try to fix it. You don't F around with domination, and Gooden was flat out dominating.

I'm not gonna blame Mel totally because Gooden had his problems too. But Mel was partly responsible for the deterioration of Doc Gooden.

Gooden must have learned it all in HS, he only played one year in the minors.

He went into rehab the first time in 87. I think the coke had a lot more tod o with his losing his fastball then Mel. I don't believe Mel or any other pitching coach would have made any big adjustments to his mechanics - nor do I believe Gooden would have let him. I think Gooden flamed out because he abused his body. It's actually amazing he had as many good years as he did.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by OldFan:

Well - I guess we just disagree.

I think you under estimate how hard it is to be dominant in baseball.In football and basketball good teams can win 70% or even 80% of their games. In baseball good teams win 60%. Even a team that is favored in every playoff series is usually not going to win 3 series in a row - it's just probability.

As far as Contreras maybe your analysis is correct but it's not nearly as clear to me. Maybe the guy just needed some time to adjust to the U.S. Maybe he was just a lot more comfortable in Chicago. El Duque certainly could have been the difference he probably had a lot more knowledge of his history and a lot better understanding or what he was going through.

Overall though I'll stand by the fact that the Yankees have been one of the top teams with one of the top pitching staff for 10+ years and I think it's harder to do then you think.

When you're throwing around all the money the Yankees throw around, shouldn't you expect to have a better pitching staff than just another ordinary above average team? That's basically what we've had for the past 3 or 4 years.

Yes they should have better pitching staffs. I think they are going in the right direction with trying to develop some pitchers - Wang, Hughes and restocking the minor league arms.

Yanks sign Roger. Wang and Rasner strong starts. Feeling any better?

Matt DeSalvo is looking pretty damn good out there tonight. There could be hope for this Yankee pitching staff yet.