http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-redsox1203.artdec03,0,914271.story
Both the Red Sox and Yankees upped the ante Sunday in their attempts to land Twins lefthander Johan Santana, but in decidedly different ways.
While the Red Sox sweetened their offer by including center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, the Yankees have set a deadline, saying they will withdraw their latest offer today if the Twins do not agree to it.
The Yankees are offering starter Phil Hughes, center fielder Melky Cabrera and another prospect for the two-time Cy Young Award winner. But Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday he will not allow the bidding war with the Red Sox to continue.
"I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox," Steinbrenner said. "That's not something the Yankees should ever do. ... If they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds. We need to get things straightened out and not wait around for them to run back to Boston and back to us, and then back to Boston. I'm not going to do that."
The winter meetings begin today in Nashville, but the Santana sweepstakes have been in play for a week. The Red Sox originally offered lefthander Jon Lester, center fielder Coco Crisp, minor league: infielder Jed Lowrie and either pitcher Michael Bowden or Justin Masterson.
The Red Sox reportedly changed the offer Saturday, adding Ellsbury but pulling back Lester. The Twins want a package that includes two of Boston's top prospects: Ellsbury, Lester and Clay Buchholz. The Red Sox will include only one.
The pressure on the Twins to act increased Sunday when FOXSports.com reported Santana will not waive his no-trade clause once the season begins. Santana becomes a free agent after the season.
Like the Red Sox, the Yankees are reluctant to include more than one of their top pitching prospects.
"I think our offer is the best offer," Steinbrenner told Newsday. "We have the best young pitchers in the game, even better than Boston."
an offer of Hughes, Melky & a 2nd tier prospect is a good offer for Johan considering the Twins' limited options, but if BOS caves & decides to include Lester along w/Ellsbury, then that is probably the better overall package & i'm sure MIN would agree... hopefully BOS sticks to their guns & Johan ends up coming to NY... i like Hughes but i don't ever think he'll be as good as Johan... lots of Yankee fans feel differently about Hughes' upside, but i don't see him as growing into the dominant "Roger Clemens" clone that he's been billed up as being... the fact that the Yankees consider Joba the untouchable & not Hughes should tell you all you need to know.
Lester and Ellsbury better than Hughes and Melky? Im sorry but the Yanks offer would still beat the Sox' one. No way Lester is in the same league that Hughes is, and Ellsbury is a goos prospect, just as Melky. The only way boston would top this, and its still arguable, is if they include both Buchholz AND Ellsbury, and thats not likely to happen.
Ellsbury is a much better prospect than Melky, believe that... also u must consider the fact that CF is their biggest need that they're looking to fill... from the Twins' standpoint, it's easy to see how they could favor that package over Hughes & Melky, even if Hughes is the best prospect in either package.
& dude, Buchholtz? the Red Sox value him as highly as we value Joba... there's no way in hell they're including him in any deal for anyone as they shouldn't.
[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 05:28 AM]
Hughes and Melky kick the shit out of Lester and Ellsbury- but the Sox are only offering Lester OR Ellsbury, so it kicks the shit out of that too, by an even more substantial margin. Jon Lester walks a ton of batters- the thing that seperates the Yankee prospects is exceptional command at every level. Lester has a history of walking too many and that's gonna keep him from reaching his ceiling.
if BOS offers up Ellsbury & Lester, believe it they're gonna get Johan unless the Yankees upgrade theirs... MIN's prime need is to fill the CF position, & they have their sights set on Ellsbury cuz they view him as a future star at the position that will be a staple at the top of their lineup for the next several years... they don't have as pressing a need in their rotation w/the return of Liriano & a new crop of young pitching prospects in their system ready to be called up soon as well... Hughes is the best prospect in either offer but overall i think the Red Sox package offers the Twins more of what they need & are looking for.
[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 07:11 AM]
Prime need being CF is overrated. You can sign a reasonably good FA outfielder to a medium sized contract in any season. I think they'll want the best pitching prospects they can get.
what reasonably good FA CFers are out there for medium sized contracts? just curious... Rowand & Jones are going to command big money contracts, & the Twins just let Hunter go because they weren't willing to pay him the money to stay.
when ur a team like MIN that's trying not to spend money & looking to rebuild, getting a cheap young CFer w/allstar potential is a valuable commodity
The guy I'd want is Mike Cameron, though he has a 35 game suspension.
But Cameron is an excellent fielder and decent hitter who you could get for a 1 year deal most likely.
Cameron's also 34 years old, not an ideal candidate for a team that wants to rebuild again with youth... & he hit .242 last year in the NL... he's not a very attractive option let's face it
[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 08:25 AM]
Never mind, for some reason I thought we were talking about a replacement for Melky for the Yanks.
Melky is aigght but not in the same league with Ellsbury.
Hughes and Lester are about the same.
Hughes has significantly higher upside than Lester... again, it's all about the Twins & their perception concerning what's more important to them... i don't think Ellsbury, Lowrie & Masterson is going to trump the Yankees' offer though... they will have to include Lester to get the Twins to accept their offer.
Posted by TMS:
what reasonably good FA CFers are out there for medium sized contracts? just curious... Rowand & Jones are going to command big money contracts, & the Twins just let Hunter go because they weren't willing to pay him the money to stay.
when ur a team like MIN that's trying not to spend money & looking to rebuild, getting a cheap young CFer w/allstar potential is a valuable commodity
I don't have a list of FAs but I'd be shocked if there were no outfield FAs who could hit .270 for you. If they're a rebuilding team, then they DON'T have to solve their CF needs this summer anyway. It would be smarter to get the very best starting pitching rotation for for the next 10 to 12 years and assume that over the next few years it won't be too hard to get a .270 hitting, decent fielding player for CF.
i keep telling u, the Twins have very good depth in their pitching, what they're placing premium value on now is getting a young CFer & 3B to pair w/Delmon Young, Joe Mauer & Justin Morneau to form the core of their future lineup... there simply aren't that many great options for CF out there in free agency that would make sense for a rebuilding team unless u think old injury plagued players with poor batting averages last year like Mike Cameron or pure scrubs like Jerry Hairston, Jr. as acceptable alternatives... the good candidates will cost way too much & the lesser ones come w/various other warts of their own... Ellsbury provides everything the Twins are looking for to fill their biggest current need... if u think it's so easy to just go out & get a star calibre young CFer, why haven't teams traded for Grady Sizemore or Carl Crawford?
[Edited by - TMS on 12-03-2007 2:40 PM]
Hughes is definitely above Lester.
I just want to remind everyone that Hughes was 25-8 with a 2.03 ERA and 311 strikeouts in 275 innings as a minor leaguer. And this was achieved from Rookie ball to AAA all before the age of 21, meaning he was often the youngest player on his team, if not the league. There's a major reason he was called the best pitching prospect in baseball prior to the season by several outlets.
As a major leaguer, in his 2nd start he threw a 7 inning near no-hitter before going down with a hamstring injury. As he returned to health, he struggled a bit, but as he began to recover went 3-0 with a 2.73 ERA in 5 September starts. And won the Yankees only playoff game with a brilliant 3 2/3 in game.
Hughes >>> Lester
Lester is a nice prospect, but has walked a lot of batters on every level and has not had the dominating performances Hughes has had.
Now Bucholz is a different story.
I can't see how Hughes + Melky + crappy prospect = Johan Santana. The Red Sox gave up more for Beckett.
When you break it down, it's just Hughes for Santana.
[Edited by - majorleads on 12-03-2007 8:28 PM]
yeah yeah yeah... go back to dreaming up fantasy scenarios of the Mets getting Erik Bedard or Dan Haren for Carlos "The Truth" Gomez & 1 of your crappy pitching prospects & leave the trade talks that actually have a chance of happening to us.
the fact is the Red Sox aren't offering any more than Ellsbury & a couple of 2nd tier prospects of their own at this point... if u don't think Hughes, Melky & a minor leaguer doesn't trump that, ur just blindly hating.
Posted by TMS:
yeah yeah yeah... go back to dreaming up fantasy scenarios of the Mets getting Erik Bedard or Dan Haren for Carlos "The Truth" Gomez & 1 of your crappy pitching prospects & leave the trade talks that actually have a chance of happening to us.
the fact is the Red Sox aren't offering any more than Ellsbury & a couple of 2nd tier prospects of their own at this point... if u don't think Hughes, Melky & a minor leaguer doesn't trump that, ur just blindly hating.
So then what you're really saying is that both the Yankees and Red Sox don't feel Johan Santana is worth at least the same amount as Josh Beckett.
What I'm saying is that if Hughes + Melky + crappy prospect was a fair offer for Santana, there would already be an announcement of a press conference this week with Johan smiling away in his little Yankee pajamas.
Sorry bub, your going to have to up your offer. Red Sox too. And who knows, maybe the Dodgers get involved.
The Yanks are doing the right thing. They have the best offer. If Minny doesn't want the offer, the Yanks will always have the option of signing Santana in 2008....probably a better scenario for them because they can keep all their prospects. They are not desperate and shouldn't act that way. They have many seasons to play and 2008 is the year they want to make a splash anyway- with the new stadium opening.
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by TMS:
yeah yeah yeah... go back to dreaming up fantasy scenarios of the Mets getting Erik Bedard or Dan Haren for Carlos "The Truth" Gomez & 1 of your crappy pitching prospects & leave the trade talks that actually have a chance of happening to us.
the fact is the Red Sox aren't offering any more than Ellsbury & a couple of 2nd tier prospects of their own at this point... if u don't think Hughes, Melky & a minor leaguer doesn't trump that, ur just blindly hating.
So then what you're really saying is that both the Yankees and Red Sox don't feel Johan Santana is worth at least the same amount as Josh Beckett.
What I'm saying is that if Hughes + Melky + crappy prospect was a fair offer for Santana, there would already be an announcement of a press conference this week with Johan smiling away in his little Yankee pajamas.
Huh? Negotiation takes time. The Yankees just put Hughes on the table.
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by majorleads:
Posted by TMS:
yeah yeah yeah... go back to dreaming up fantasy scenarios of the Mets getting Erik Bedard or Dan Haren for Carlos "The Truth" Gomez & 1 of your crappy pitching prospects & leave the trade talks that actually have a chance of happening to us.
the fact is the Red Sox aren't offering any more than Ellsbury & a couple of 2nd tier prospects of their own at this point... if u don't think Hughes, Melky & a minor leaguer doesn't trump that, ur just blindly hating.
So then what you're really saying is that both the Yankees and Red Sox don't feel Johan Santana is worth at least the same amount as Josh Beckett.
What I'm saying is that if Hughes + Melky + crappy prospect was a fair offer for Santana, there would already be an announcement of a press conference this week with Johan smiling away in his little Yankee pajamas.
Huh? Negotiation takes time. The Yankees just put Hughes on the table.
I know that. But TMS is saying that the Yankees offer trumps the Sox as if somehow those offers are the final ones. Oh yeah right, new tough guy on the block Hank Steinslobber Jr stomped his feet and has given the Twins a deadline of today.
