Well, if there is one thing I know in the future its that the new stadium will not be name Allianz. Since the Holocaust, I think the record for Jews has been like 29,972-0
ugh, please just name it the "NJ Meadowlands Stadium" for God's sakes.
Your poll is confusing. What does "Yes" mean - that it is a big deal? Or that enough time has past?
For the record, I think using that name is a bad idea.
Even without the historical knowledge, it sounds too foreign. I hate to be xenophobic, but what do Germans care about American football and baseball?
It's just weird.
[Edited by - basketballjones on 09-11-2008 19:13]
But it fits since they are renaming the Jets to "Herr Storm Troopers".
oohah
If this wasn't about Jewish people, nobody would care.............
Posted by Anji:
If this wasn't about Jewish people, nobody would care.............
What is that supposed to mean??? And if it was named for organization which an historical prejudice against African Americans nobody would care?
While sensitivity is often overemphasized-we are still talking about an entity which supported a regimes that resulted in the deaths of about 6 million Jews and over 70 million people in total and almost 4% of the world population.
Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?
Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.
oohah
can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?
Posted by oohah:
Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?
Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.
oohah
You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.
Posted by djsunyc:
can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?
the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:
can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?
the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name
the giants and jets play in another state. their owners deal with the nj taxes. they deal with nj rules. nothing about them is new york except for their name. in a city like ny, how can they not have a team to play in the city itself? let's call the nets the ny nets right now. and the devils too.
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:
can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?
the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name
the giants and jets play in another state. their owners deal with the nj taxes. they deal with nj rules. nothing about them is new york except for their name. in a city like ny, how can they not have a team to play in the city itself? let's call the nets the ny nets right now. and the devils too.
both franchises maintain offices in NYC & i'm sure they do have to pay NY taxes to license their names w/NY on them... it's all about marketing dollars... & they already tried to bring the Jets to NY w/no success... the logistics of relocating to West Side Manhatten are just way too complicated & it would never work from a practical standpoint... IMO the Jets should look into merging w/the Mets at City Field & the Giants should stay in Rutherford... i'm sick of sharing a stadium w/those Greenie heads.
Posted by TheSage:
Posted by oohah:
Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?
Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.
oohah
You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.
same company, but is it still run by the same people? Or, are those guilty germans dead? How long will we hold a company guilty for something long dead individuals did?
You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.
Actually I really do understand, so please don't be condescending.
I think I bring up a very good point with Mercedes. It seems you wouldn't mind them having their name on a stadium. You draw the distinction that Allianz was actively backing the Nazi party, while Mercedes just profited greatly from the holocaust. That is a difference, but I don't think it is truly important. That is like saying it is okay to profit fomr misery as long as you are not the author of that misery. I don't see it that way. And I bet if we took a real good look we would find Mercedes was more than just a contractor for the Nazi party.
The fact is the company Allianz still exists. They have paid reparations etc. but that really doesn't matter to me, it doesn't change what they did or their role in the suffering of millions of people. But if Allianz still exists and they can sell their product here they should be able to advertise, just like Mercedes, DeBeers, or the other companies you alluded to who are U.S. Corporations that have engaged in or been responsible for terrible actions both past and present.
I know this is a hot-button issue for you because I have read your posts when it comes to this stuff before. And I think you really are against having the name Allianz plastered on a stadium, which will bring up painful memories for some. Fair enough. But objectively since they have not been shut down they have every right to advertise and endorse. If you don't think they do, the issue is not whether they should be on a stadium, but instead, should they be forced to close up shop because of their role in WWII 60-70 years ago. And to be fair, we should do an audit of a lot of other companies and shut them down too.
oohah
Posted by oohah:
Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?
Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.
oohah
Wikipedia: Volkswagen
Adolf Hitler had a keen interest in cars even though he did not drive. In 1933, shortly after taking over as leader of Germany, he asked Ferdinand Porsche to make changes to his original 1931 design to make it more suited for the working man. Hans Ledwinka discussed his ideas with Ferdinand Porsche, who used many Tatra design features in the 1938 "KdF-Wagen", later known as the VW Käfer - or Volkswagen Beetle. On 22 June 1934, Dr. Ferdinand Porsche agreed to create the "People's Car" for Hitler.
I think naming the stadium this would be terrible. Why do business with an organization with this history? Its a shame that they are still powerful enough to have a pro team out of country named after them.
While we are at it.....the country is hundreds of years deep in cotton money! Reparations bitches!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery
[Edited by - enyspree on 12-09-2008 01:06 AM]
I think for some they will never forgive, while others will move on.
we have insurance companies and banks in this country that financed the south in the civil war and insured Black slaves as property, and there still in operation to this day.
Should we ban them even if they long gave up the practice and the pricipals involved are long dead>?
Personally, As a Jew, the issue is complex and not simple. If they have paid up as a company and don't currently discriminate then I don't have a problem. This is a global economy and the world has changed in regards to how business is done. I only drive German cars and have for many years. I invest in europe and know some of the companies I do may have checkered pasts, but so do many American and asian as well. Many of the Japenese products we use are from companies that manufactered war goods in ww2.
I think Allianze has to look at this as an investment they want to make given the circumstances.
But make no mistake, Deutch Bank, Credit Swiss, UBS and others all have some nasty history. VW, Mercedes, Bosch, Bayer, IBM, Fuji Heavy, Mitsubishi, all have similar ties to a checkerd past.
I say to each his own. Its very personal.
Posted by EnySpree:
I think naming the stadium this would be terrible. Why do business with an organization with this history? Its a shame that they are still powerful enough to have a pro team out of country named after them.
While we are at it.....the country is hundreds of years deep in cotton money! Reparations bitches!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery
[Edited by - enyspree on 12-09-2008 01:06 AM]
I always think of this.. especially now as my 3rd grader starts learning history. North, South, East, West... this country was founded treason, slave labor, extortion and outright theft. But hey... look at us now, we are the bastion of peace and prosperity. I love America but creation and growth is the furthest thing from romantic
Anyway I hate naming stadiums but oh well. As for the Nazi "ties" if you were a German company in the late 30s-40s you either were Nazi affiliates or you were out of business and probably much worse (dead). Getting in bed with Hitler wasnt politics it was survival
As long as Allianze does not insist the Jets change their name to "Strahlen" and the Giants to "Riesen"!
Whatever none of us are ever going to sit in "good" seats at the new stadiums being built anyway.
Posted by PresIke:
Whatever none of us are ever going to sit in "good" seats at the new stadiums being built anyway.
& that is the most Nazi-Elitist crime of them all as far as i'm concerned.
(OK, well maybe not... just trying to keep this discussion from getting overly political)
[Edited by - TMS on 09-12-2008 11:04 AM]
