if u think only a select few Yankee fans are the only ones who think Moose doesn't deserve the Hall right now u need to conduct a few more psychological case studies brohamus.
Posted by TMS:
if u think only a select few Yankee fans are the only ones who think Moose doesn't deserve the Hall right now u need to conduct a few more psychological case studies brohamus.
No, I think it's A LOT of Yankee fans. It's only a select, rare few of media analysts and players. That was precisely my point.
well, looks to me like ur the only one here who thinks Moose deserves to be in right now... i'm assuming the 1 vote belongs to u... ur an admitted Moose fan, it's understandable... to suggest that alot of other Yankee fans are being biased here against your boy is seriously reaching.
Are a lot of Yankee fans biased against A-Rod such that they treat him harsher than non-Yankee fans would if he were on their team, or am I just doing a lot of reaching there? It's easier to see the reasoning when you've been on that side of the argument before for a particular player.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-29-2008 7:52 PM]
i am an admitted fan of ARod & have said i understood why fans would be angry at him in just about every discussion we've had on this topic... i know all about his legendary choke jobs in the postseason & have acknowledged as much... if ur trying to call me out as being hypocritical here u'r doing a horrible job of it... u asked people to give u reasons why they think Moose deserves or doesn't deserve to be in the HOF... then u come out & call them biased for not agreeing w/ur point of view... what was the point in even creating this thread to begin with if u'r not willing to consider other people's points of view?
I consider other people's views if they engage in a discussion. Here no one replied to my counter arguments. No one (maybe except allanfan) addressed anything I said here:
I guess what I was hoping for was an explanation for why Mussina should be the first pitcher in the history of the game to be over 100 games over .500 and not in the hall-of-fame. The only answers I get are:
"He never won a world series." But then if you point out lots of hall-of-famers didn't, there is no response.
"He was never totally dominant." But then if you ask why that's more important than being extremely reliable over, possibly the most reliable pitcher over the last three decades, there is no response.
"He never won a Cy Young Award." OK, but then I guess you think Mariano should not be a hall-of-famer either. I don't have the info. but I'd be curious how many baseball hall-of-fame pitchers never won Cy Young Awards. I'd bet there are plenty and bet many have far worse career records than Mussina.
Basically none of the reasons people come up with are used to evaluate other pitchers. So I'm still left with no answer as to why Mike Mussina should be the first mlb pitcher ever to be 100 (well over 100 in his case) games over .500 denied hall-of-fame status.
Allanfan was really the only one who addressed that comment, and I replied by indicating which of his statements I thought were solid and which weren't.
And no, I didn't say you were hypocrtical--at least not any more than all we humans are. It's part of human nature to see certain things easier or less easily depending on the target. It's also nothing uniquely negative IMO to say there's misdirected anger. That's part of human nature too in my opinion and I'm sure I do it at times too.
[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-29-2008 8:23 PM]
Posted by Allanfan20:
Bonn, I agree that he deserves to have a shot at it, but I wouldn't be dissapointed if he never made it. Look at it this way. He never had AAANY of the following, at least as of yet:
Cy Young (Although maybe this season?)
World Series (Along with World Series MVP)
Completely dominant season or series of dominant seasons
No hitter (Although that's unfair)
300 win season (Also maybe unfair but hey, he's close)
Amongst career leaders in strike outs (I'm pretty sure he isn't)
How many hall of fame pitchers have NONE of those credentials?
Just looked it up. He's 19th in baseball history in career strikeouts. (Mr. Cy Young himself is #20 actually.)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leader...
He's on the line and teetering either way. If he gets in, it will take him a long ass time like Goose Gossage.
i agree, he's very borderline, which is why i bring up names like Blylevyn & Schilling... IMO those guys will get in before Moose does if he were to retire after this year... that's why i think he needs to get closer to 300 or have another season like the one he just had at least.
Holy crap! I didn't realize that the dude had 270 wins! And almost 3,000 K's? You'd think so, but he's gonna be border-line. He got hit pretty hard in his career. A work horse, but way too many home runs against him (about well' over 300) and just too many hits overall. He was always a consistent 200 plus a season. His strike out to walks ratio is excellent though. Character makes a difference also and I don't remember him ever having a bad attitude. He got cheated out of a lot of wins too, because this teammates seemed to not show up with timely hitting when he pitched. Maybe he's one of those guys who gets better with age.
If he were to win another 20 plus next season, then he would probably end up being one of those guys (like Gaylord Perry or Phil Niekro) who accumulated lots of numbers over a long period and if makes it, he probably won't make it until later years. Hell' our own Ron Guidry been retired for twenty years, a three time 20 game winner, with two world series championship rings, Cy Young award honors with the 25 - 3 season and great character, he hasn't even made it in yet, because of early lower back problems. Just like Don Mattingly. Their careers ended a little too soon, but both still very much Hall worthy.
Mussina gives up more hits and HRs than you'd expect from an excellent pitcher but he gets away with it because he hardly ever walks anyone. I'd bet that a very high percentage of those HRs were solo shots.
That's a good point. So he's been very lucky then and I don't think luck is gonna get a guy in.
He's been lucky that he doesn't walk people? You lost me there.
Posted by 4949:
Hell' our own Ron Guidry been retired for twenty years, a three time 20 game winner, with two world series championship rings, Cy Young award honors with the 25 - 3 season and great character, he hasn't even made it in yet, because of early lower back problems. Just like Don Mattingly. Their careers ended a little too soon, but both still very much Hall worthy.
clearly everyone is biased & have an anti-Guidry & Mattingly agenda too.
Posted by TMS:
Posted by 4949:
Hell' our own Ron Guidry been retired for twenty years, a three time 20 game winner, with two world series championship rings, Cy Young award honors with the 25 - 3 season and great character, he hasn't even made it in yet, because of early lower back problems. Just like Don Mattingly. Their careers ended a little too soon, but both still very much Hall worthy.
clearly everyone is biased & have an anti-Guidry & Mattingly agenda too.
I guess we have to sacrifice a little, even though the Yankees deserve 'everything'. My two most favorite Yankees right there, along with Jeter of coure. Guid's the one I go my 4949 from!
And I trust they'll both make it in eventually. And how bout retiring those numbers also!!
i hope so... & we did retire those #'s... both of them have their #'s hanging in front of Monument Park.
