Donnie also won 9 Gold Gloves, led the league in BA & finished in the top 3 two other times, & has won more Silver Slugger awards over his injury shortened heyday than Rice... if Rice gets in there's no way ur gonna tell me Donnie can't, & even Yankee fans will tell u Donnie just doesn't have the numbers to get in.
I have to see the numbers before I can commit, but hey Donnie got me into being a Yankee fan so I'm all for it if its there.
sebstar@ 1/13/2009 2:18 PM
Looking at the stats of both players, Rice was far more consistent over a greater number of years. Donnie had like three phonominal years. Donnie's numbers are very highly concentrated in just a few short years.
Sorry Donnie baseball. Not to say that Rice is head and shoulders above, but if I have to give the nod to one of the two, it would be him.
SMH @ Don's back. Thats the real villian in this story.
djsunyc@ 1/13/2009 2:32 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
i remember Rice too & he definitely was the most feared hitter on those Sux teams, but we're talking the cream of the crop here... if u ask me i would put Andre Dawson into the HOF before Jim Rice because he was a true 5 tool player & didn't have the luxury of playing his career w/that Green Monster to raise his batting average
I heard a stat on ESPN that bears repeating. From like '77-86, Rice was the leader in HR's and RBI. That sounds like sustained elite production to me.
He didnt have the longevity of many HOF's so his inclusion wasnt a slam dunk, but too many great players have spoken up on his behalf for his inclusion not to be legitimate in my eyes.
His case is a debatable one, but I think its cool.
But whoever didnt vote for Ricky Henderson, IMO, should have their voting privileges revoked immediately. Thats just ridiculous. He's the greatest leadoff hitter ever, by a mile, and one of the overall greatest players of all time. WTF??? Corruption or incompetence, pick one.
what is 100% laughable is that he was still the leader in HR's & RBI's last winter, the winter before that, the winter before that, and the winter before that.
but NOW he gets voted in? the whole process is a sham. if he wasn't a HOF'er 5 years ago, what makes him one now?
sebstar@ 1/13/2009 2:38 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
i remember Rice too & he definitely was the most feared hitter on those Sux teams, but we're talking the cream of the crop here... if u ask me i would put Andre Dawson into the HOF before Jim Rice because he was a true 5 tool player & didn't have the luxury of playing his career w/that Green Monster to raise his batting average
I heard a stat on ESPN that bears repeating. From like '77-86, Rice was the leader in HR's and RBI. That sounds like sustained elite production to me.
He didnt have the longevity of many HOF's so his inclusion wasnt a slam dunk, but too many great players have spoken up on his behalf for his inclusion not to be legitimate in my eyes.
His case is a debatable one, but I think its cool.
But whoever didnt vote for Ricky Henderson, IMO, should have their voting privileges revoked immediately. Thats just ridiculous. He's the greatest leadoff hitter ever, by a mile, and one of the overall greatest players of all time. WTF??? Corruption or incompetence, pick one.
what is 100% laughable is that he was still the leader in HR's & RBI's last winter, the winter before that, the winter before that, and the winter before that.
but NOW he gets voted in? the whole process is a sham. if he wasn't a HOF'er 5 years ago, what makes him one now?
I get why the let him in:
Sentimental reasons had a lot to do with it. It was his last chance and he is a bubble candidate, he was so close for so long. Now or never.
Victim of bias. A lot of sports writers who had votes just didnt like him as a person, becuase he wasnt that accomodating of a player to the media. This could be a recorrection of that.
But the biggest reason is the steroid era. Most of the guys from the '90s arent getting in, so there was a new light cast upon Rice's numbers.
TMS@ 1/13/2009 2:38 PM
Donnie also added the element of elite defense over his entire career, something Jim Rice was never known for, & even w/his injury skewed stats, he still has a better career BA & OBP than Rice does.
look, i'm not trying to argue that Rice didn't sustain his offensive production longer than Donnie did, but when u look at the entire package & what he did over his entire career, he's just not a HOF calibre player in my book, & neither is Donnie (as pained as i am to say it cuz he was my favorite player of alltime)... but i tell u what, if Jim Rice & Kirby Puckett are in, i better see Donnie get voted in too.
sebstar@ 1/13/2009 2:40 PM
The way I look at it is this TMS.
The better player and the better talent: Don Mattingly.
Ther better career and the better HOF candidate: Rice.
Sucks, but its truth, IMO.
TMS@ 1/13/2009 2:50 PM
let's put this argument another way since it does no real good to compare Rice to Donnie cuz first of all 1 plays an IF position & the other plays a corner OF position...
i'll ask u this instead... why is Jim Rice in & Andre Dawson isn't?... 2 great OFers during their heyday, only Dawson was also an elite base stealer as well as a tremendous defensive player, which Rice was neither... did the voters vote Jim Rice in because it was his last year of eligibility & figured they can vote Dawson in later? that doesn't make sense to me whatsoever... like dj says, if Rice wasn't a HOFer for the past 17 years or whatever it is, why is he all of a sudden one now?
Dawson's got 3 more Silver Sluggers than Rice, 8 Gold Gloves to none for Jim Rice & more HR's & RBI's... doesn't it make sense that he gets voted in before Rice does if anything? it does to me.
sebstar@ 1/13/2009 3:03 PM
Posted by TMS:
let's put this argument another way since it does no real good to compare Rice to Donnie cuz first of all 1 plays an IF position & the other plays a corner OF position...
i'll ask u this instead... why is Jim Rice in & Andre Dawson isn't?... 2 great OFers during their heyday, only Dawson was also an elite base stealer as well as a tremendous defensive player, which Rice was neither... did the voters vote Jim Rice in because it was his last year of eligibility & figured they can vote Dawson in later? that doesn't make sense to me whatsoever... like dj says, if Rice wasn't a HOFer for the past 17 years or whatever it is, why is he all of a sudden one now?
Dawson's got 3 more Silver Sluggers than Rice, 8 Gold Gloves to none for Jim Rice & more HR's & RBI's... doesn't it make sense that he gets voted in before Rice does if anything? it does to me.
Definitely a better comparison, and a good point is made. Just looking at the numbers and going by anecdotal evidence and what I've seen of the two --- Dawson was the better player and had the better career by a pretty comfortable margin.
Dont know how they would justify it. I mean, Dawson's last few years were pretty embarrassing, but other than that he smashes Rice.
Political and sentimental voting to be sure.
4949@ 1/13/2009 9:18 PM
Posted by TMS:
i remember Rice too & he definitely was the most feared hitter on those Sux teams, but we're talking the cream of the crop here... if u ask me i would put Andre Dawson into the HOF before Jim Rice because he was a true 5 tool player & didn't have the luxury of playing his career w/that Green Monster to raise his batting average
Well, they had the Green Monster, but we had that 310' fence ourselves. So what's fair is fair, right? Just my opinion. And I agree about Andre getting in also, but it was Rice's last chance, so it had to be. Dawson will' get in sooner or later.
4949@ 1/13/2009 9:20 PM
Posted by Knicksfansince94:
Ricky Henderson can run so fast, and slide, and hit singles, it's scary!
If you didn't get a chance to see him in his first years, then you missed speed like you never seen it before. It was amazing watching him. Used to piss me off, when he played against the Yankees.
4949@ 1/13/2009 9:22 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
i remember Rice too & he definitely was the most feared hitter on those Sux teams, but we're talking the cream of the crop here... if u ask me i would put Andre Dawson into the HOF before Jim Rice because he was a true 5 tool player & didn't have the luxury of playing his career w/that Green Monster to raise his batting average
I heard a stat on ESPN that bears repeating. From like '77-86, Rice was the leader in HR's and RBI. That sounds like sustained elite production to me.
He didnt have the longevity of many HOF's so his inclusion wasnt a slam dunk, but too many great players have spoken up on his behalf for his inclusion not to be legitimate in my eyes.
I would have to say that a guy like Rice's numbers, personality, etc, etc, would be the dividing line to who makes it and who doesn't. But many have made it on other talents also.
4949@ 1/13/2009 9:29 PM
Despite the GREEN MONSTER, here's his numbers. And note, Rice didn't hit all of his home runs, or doubles or whatever in Fenway Park alone. He proved he could hit that ball.
And here's another question. I wonder how many hundreds and hundreds (if not over a thousand) players got cheated out of a home run, when ever they line shot a ball off the top of that wall? Quite a few I'd say.
[Edited by - 4949 on 01-13-2009 9:32 PM]
TMS@ 1/13/2009 9:48 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by TMS:
i remember Rice too & he definitely was the most feared hitter on those Sux teams, but we're talking the cream of the crop here... if u ask me i would put Andre Dawson into the HOF before Jim Rice because he was a true 5 tool player & didn't have the luxury of playing his career w/that Green Monster to raise his batting average
Well, they had the Green Monster, but we had that 310' fence ourselves. So what's fair is fair, right? Just my opinion. And I agree about Andre getting in also, but it was Rice's last chance, so it had to be. Dawson will' get in sooner or later.
Jim Rice benefitted from plenty of otherwise routine flyball outs that resulted in doubles for him at Fenway... fine, he may have been cheated out of a few line drive HR's too, but the bonus he gained in BA & OPS definitely more than offset that.
as for Donnie playing in lefty friendly YS, most of his HR's were to the alleys in Right & Left CF, definitely not a friendly place to hit balls if you're looking for cheap HRs... yeah he pulled a few down the line but his power was to the alleys & he routinely took the ball the other way to get most of his hits.
TMS@ 1/13/2009 9:49 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Knicksfansince94:
Ricky Henderson can run so fast, and slide, and hit singles, it's scary!
If you didn't get a chance to see him in his first years, then you missed speed like you never seen it before. It was amazing watching him. Used to piss me off, when he played against the Yankees.
Rickey was not just a singles hitting leadoff hitter dude... go watch some film of the guy when u get a chance... he redefined the leadoff hitter role in baseball cuz he could hit the ball out & drive in runs as well as get on base & wreak havoc on the bases.
islesfan@ 1/13/2009 10:15 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Knicksfansince94:
Ricky Henderson can run so fast, and slide, and hit singles, it's scary!
If you didn't get a chance to see him in his first years, then you missed speed like you never seen it before. It was amazing watching him. Used to piss me off, when he played against the Yankees.
I remember watching him before he came to the Yankees. Teams had no chance of throwing him out even though everybody in the stadium knew he was going to go. He'd regularly steal on pickoff attempts and easily beat the throw.
The thing that really used to piss me off with Rickey was the snatch catch. I was always hoping that he'd pull the glove away too soon and get hit right in the face.
TMS@ 1/13/2009 10:21 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Knicksfansince94:
Ricky Henderson can run so fast, and slide, and hit singles, it's scary!
If you didn't get a chance to see him in his first years, then you missed speed like you never seen it before. It was amazing watching him. Used to piss me off, when he played against the Yankees.
I remember watching him before he came to the Yankees. Teams had no chance of throwing him out even though everybody in the stadium knew he was going to go. He'd regularly steal on pickoff attempts and easily beat the throw.
The thing that really used to piss me off with Rickey was the snatch catch. I was always hoping that he'd pull the glove away too soon and get hit right in the face.
come on, how can u hate on this cat? he can actually back that stuff up when he says it too, unlike certain other self aggrandizing primadonnas that shall go nameless Stephon Marbury from Coney Island PG of the New York Knicks.
