Off Topic · Is it time the US start rethinking it's foreign policy with Israel? (page 1)

ANKARA, Turkey – Turkey withdrew its ambassador to Israel and called for an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council as condemnations erupted across Europe and the Arab world Monday over Israel's deadly commando raid on ships taking humanitarian aid to the blockaded Gaza Strip.
Government after government demanded an explanation from Israel, which said its soldiers were trying to defend themselves against armed activists. The White House said it was trying to learn more about "this tragedy."
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said "it should be known that we are not going to remain silent in the face of this inhumane state terrorism." Most of the nine dead were apparently from Turkey, once a close ally of Israel.
In Istanbul, a crowd tried to storm the Israeli Consulate. North of Jerusalem, Palestinians hurled bottles and stones at Israeli soldiers. In Jordan, hundreds urged their government to follow Turkey's lead and cut ties with Israel. Dozens of Egyptians protested outside the foreign ministry in Cairo criticizing the Egyptian government holding pictures of late President Gamal Abdel Nasser.
Israel said the activists attacked its commandos as they boarded the six ships taking tons of supplies to Gaza, while the flotilla's organizers said the Israeli forces opened fire first.
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned the violence. The European Union's foreign affairs chief, Catherine Ashton, said the bloc was deeply concerned and she called on Israel to carry out an inquiry. British Foreign Secretary William Hague deplored the killings and called for an end to the Gaza blockade.
Greece, Egypt, Sweden, Spain and Denmark summoned Israel's ambassadors demanding explanations for the violence, with Spain and France condemning what they called the disproportionate use of force. Greece suspended a military exercise with Israel and postponed a visit by Israel's air force chief. Germany called for an immediate investigation but was careful not to directly place blame, and said it was seeking information on six German citizens believed to have been aboard the ships.
In Tehran, dozens of angry students pelted the U.N. offices with stones and eggs in protest, burning Israeli flags and chanting, "death to Israel" and "down with U.S." Police blocked them from reaching the building. The president of Iran, a key supporter of Hamas, called the raid "an inhuman act." In Baghdad, an estimated 3,000 Shiite followers of the anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr shouted "Death, death to Israel!" and "Death, death to America!"
Riot police used tear gas to drive back hundreds of protesters demonstrating outside the Israeli Embassy in Paris. There were also demonstrations in Rome, Sweden, Norway, Cyprus and more than 20 cities in Greece.
In Athens, riot police used tear gas and stun grenades to disperse around 2,500 Greeks and Arabs protesting outside the Israeli Embassy. Some protesters threw stones and tried to push past police lines to reach the embassy. About 2,000 people demonstrated peacefully in Thessaloniki.
The African Union issued a statement to "strongly condemn" the raid and said it "complicates the existing situation and the effort to bring just, lasting and comprehensive peace to the area."
Abdel-Rahman al-Attiya, the head of the Gulf Cooperation Council, a regional group, said "Israel is a renegade entity that violates international law" and said the attack should be considered "a war crime."
In Saudi Arabia, which has promoted a wider Arab-Israeli peace proposal calling for a land-for-peace swap, the Cabinet headed by King Abdullah called on the international community to hold Israel responsible for its "barbaric" policies.
But the strongest reaction came from Turkey, where Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said Turkey was canceling three joint military drills and calling on the U.N. Security Council to convene in an emergency session about Israel. Turkey is currently a member of the council.
He also said a Turkish youth soccer team currently in Israel would be brought home.
The raid also brought heightened attention to Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip, imposed after the Palestinian militant group Hamas seized control of the tiny Mediterranean territory in 2007. The blockade — along with Israel's fierce offensive against Gaza in the winter of 2008-2009 to stop Hamas rocket fire on Israeli villages — has fueled anti-Israeli sentiment around the Arab world.
The Cairo-based Arab League called an emergency session for Tuesday to address the attack, as the two only Arab states with peace deals with Israel — Jordan and Egypt — sharply condemned the violence.
The incident also put Egypt in a tight position. The only Arab country bordering the Gaza Strip, it has helped enforce the blockade by cracking down on smuggling tunnels that are a key source of goods to Gaza's 1.5 million people and by rejecting pressure that it open its border crossing.
A group founded by Nelson Mandela that includes Nobel Peace Prize winner Desmond Tutu and former President Jimmy Carter said "the treatment of the people of Gaza is one of the world's greatest human rights violations and that the blockade is not only illegal, it is counterproductive."
In Beirut, about 500 Palestinian and Lebanese activists protested in front of the U.N. headquarters, setting Israeli flags on fire. In neighboring Syria, more than 200 Syrian and Palestinian protesters staged a sit-in before the offices of the United Nations.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_o...

Here's a video from abroad the ship

I want to wait to find out why the commandos boarded the vessel. The terrorists that attacked the hotels in Mumbai infiltrated through the sea so I know the Indian coast guard is very strict over the last 2 years.

Silverfuel wrote:I want to wait to find out why the commandos boarded the vessel. The terrorists that attacked the hotels in Mumbai infiltrated through the sea so I know the Indian coast guard is very strict over the last 2 years.

But the fact remains that this was International waters and they have no right to stop aid convoys from coming into the Gaza strip. If every military in the world started acting preemptively and killing civilians because they might be aiding terrorists what the hell kind of world would be living in. To complicate matters further this was a Turkish vessel which means this was an attack on a NATO member by a non-NATO member. At the very least the US would be issuing sanctions.

This is a very sad state of events. Like Silver said, I'd like to hear more details of why the troops boarded at all. I thought overall the article was very neutral and an excellent example of responsible reporting. The only blemish was the mention of the tunnels into the Gaza Strip, calling them a key source of goods to Gaza's 1.5 million people when every governement in the world has acknowledged them as the way teeoeists smuggle weapons, rockets and bombs in. That showed some naïveté but overall I was impressed.

Israel had better have a good reason for this or they will lose the moral high ground for a long long time.

Seems like the publicity of this really does benefit the palistinians. The publicity almost seems ready made.

Not logical Isreali commandos just start killing innocent people.

We talked about how the WTC motivated a whole country. The anti-Isreali propganda machine is well documented.

One fact remains: The activists were attempting to defy a blockade imposed by Israel after the Islamist movement Hamas took power in Gaza in 2007.

THe blockade is in effect because Hamas cares more about smuggling guns and rockets than feeding people. Hungry people make great terrorists. Hammas don't care about governing, it cars about its funding to kill from Iran.

No guns, no problem.

I guess the question is who shot first?

This is one incident, and a bad publicity incident for Israel. Israel is dealing with terrorists and constant terrorist attacks. Our country went ballistic after 9/11 with super high security, and giving the Gov't special rights under the law to investigate people, etc - that was one attack. Israel has been under terrorist attack for decades.

The terrorists blow up and kill hundreds of innocent people all of the time. Bitty, where is your sympathy for the innocent men, women, and children who are killed and maimed after these terrorist attacks? Hamas in Gaza has been launching rockets from Gaza onto Israeli villages for years, terrorizing innocent people. Every day Hamas launched on average 30 rockets into Israel When Hamas got rockets that started reaching the bigger towns and cities,the Israelis went in.

The main difference between Israel's attacks and Hamas' attacks - Israel has always gone out of the way to not harm innocent civilians. Hamas goes out of its way TO harm innocent civilians.

The only way to create peace in the Middle East is to diffuse the stress and tensions , and bring in harmony and order. Challenging Israeli security forces is not the way. Bringing in more arms and rockets to Hamas is not the way.

Pertinent November Article

Note: This article is from Nov 2009 but it explains why Israel wants to stop these ships from entering Gaza. Do we really forget so quickly what the real situation is like there?

Israel says seized ship contained Iranian arms

By Howard Schneider
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, November 5, 2009

JERUSALEM -- The Israeli navy said Wednesday that commandos had seized a container ship carrying a huge cache of weapons that originated in Iran and was ultimately destined for the militia of the Islamist Hezbollah movement.

As part of its routine inspection of ships in the Mediterranean Sea, the Israeli navy intercepted the vessel Tuesday night near Cyprus, roughly 100 miles off the Israeli coast. There was no resistance from the ship's crew, and once Israeli special forces boarded, they found an estimated 600 tons of rockets, guns and other munitions, said Rear Adm. Rani Ben-Yehuda, deputy head of the Israeli navy.

Flying under an Antiguan flag, the ship, called the Francop, was carrying cargo loaded in Damietta, Egypt, and bound for Latakia in Syria, Israeli defense officials said. Some of the ship's 500 containers were stamped with the insignia of the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines, and 36 of them were found to contain arms. Other documents found on board identified the cargo as originating in Iran, Ben-Yehuda said.

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem, speaking from Tehran, denied that Iranian arms were bound for Syria and said "pirates" had disrupted legitimate trade between Syria and Iran, news services reported.

The incident comes as Israeli political officials defend their country in the U.N. General Assembly against allegations that Israeli forces committed war crimes during last winter's three-week war with the Islamist Hamas movement in the Gaza Strip.

Israel contends that it took military action only after years in which the Iranian-backed group fired rockets at civilian targets in Israel. The country regards Hamas and Hezbollah as imminent threats -- a point highlighted when Israeli intelligence officials told the country's parliament this week that Hamas had recently test-fired an Iranian-supplied rocket able to reach Tel Aviv. Hamas denied the allegation.

"This is the state of Israel's answer to all those who call on Israel to examine itself, about how it defended its citizens," former defense minister Shaul Mofaz said on Israel Radio after the seizure of the ship was announced. "We have to act constantly, daily, to defend our citizens. This is further and emphatic proof that attempts by the other side do not stop."

Israeli officials offered no direct evidence that the supplies were bound for Hezbollah. They noted, however, that Iran is forbidden under a U.N. embargo to export arms. Iran is widely considered a major weapons supplier for Hezbollah and Hamas.

Ben-Yehuda said the nature of the supplies, including thousands of shorter-range Katyusha rockets, supported the idea that the arms were not intended for the Syrian military or some other standing force.

"We know what Hezbollah uses and what ranges they need," he said.

Israel fought an intense war with the Lebanese Islamist militia in 2006, and since then, Lebanon has been under a U.N. resolution meant to discourage the presence of armaments not under the control of the nation's military.

After the naval boarding, the ship was redirected to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where officials began to offload it and display what they say is Israel's largest haul of smuggled arms to date.

Ben-Yehuda said neither the ship's 11-person crew nor the Egyptians at the port knew about the contents of the containers, which held civilian goods layered over weapons crates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

If the Arab countries wanted to help the Palestinians they can do that very easily. The Saudi's can give them very well paying jobs and the Egyptians can open their borders to them. Instead they choose to give their family money if they become suicide bombers.

Israel attacked unarmed vessel in International waters that was trying to get through an illegal blockade. Israel than kills 10 people while onboard, blocks communication to/from the boat and drags the vessel into an Israeli port and Israel claims self-defense. Sorry guys this doesn't pass the smell test.

Markji,

Whose attacking who here? The numbers disproportionately show that Israel has been the aggressor. Unless I am drawing the wrong conclusion here.

These are statistics just from Sept 2000 to December 09.

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000

1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

Silverfuel wrote:If the Arab countries wanted to help the Palestinians they can do that very easily. The Saudi's can give them very well paying jobs and the Egyptians can open their borders to them. Instead they choose to give their family money if they become suicide bombers.

By relocating the Palestinians into their country they would supporting Israel's claim to that land which NO ARAB country does. That doesn't make too much sense imo.

Bitty,

The numbers are not correct. Its how the numbers are achieved.

Your trying to equate. Its not. Shooting rockets into civilanss is murder. Hinding behind children and their mothers as human shields is also murder!

They treat women and children as PROPERTY. Im suprised at you bitty! How can you equate?

Hezbollah always "wins".....

Child soldiers.......Don't educate the children!!!! fill them with hate!

If you store guns and soldiers amung the population your gonna jack your numbers.
As a parent there is no thought other than the protection of my family and if I put them in harms way its on ME!!!!!!

You think it would all be better if they just waited unti they were inside the international line?

We don't even leave our soldiers behind.

You really have a hard time figuring this out don't you?

Who the hell goes on a Baskeball thread and starts a thread promiting we should "rethink" our policy?

There are somtihngs you can argue, but really.........Really!

Nalod wrote:Bitty,

The numbers are not correct. Its how the numbers are achieved.

Your trying to equate. Its not. Shooting rockets into civilanss is murder. Hinding behind children and their mothers as human shields is also murder!

They treat women and children as PROPERTY. Im suprised at you bitty! How can you equate?

Hezbollah always "wins".....

Child soldiers.......Don't educate the children!!!! fill them with hate!

If you store guns and soldiers amung the population your gonna jack your numbers.
As a parent there is no thought other than the protection of my family and if I put them in harms way its on ME!!!!!!

You think it would all be better if they just waited unti they were inside the international line?

We don't even leave our soldiers behind.

You really have a hard time figuring this out don't you?

Who the hell goes on a Baskeball thread and starts a thread promiting we should "rethink" our policy?

There are somtihngs you can argue, but really.........Really!

I'm sorry but what information am I suppose to gather from your post? This is just a bunch of pictures and ramblings. If these numbers are incorrect, inflated, etc by all means bring forth your information. Most of my information is from B'Tselem which is a Israeli Human Rights Information Center and some of my other information is from the CIA World fact book.

Also this is a big news story and figured that since Briggs posts articles about once on month on how Israel and the US should drop nuclear bombs on Iran so I thought this story would be fair game.

You seem to want to stifle debate about US/Israel foreign relations I'm only looking to start a dialogue about a International event and how it impacts the US. But it seems this makes you uncomfortable maybe because you do not look the idea of any possibly criticizing Israeli government's actions. I equate the current Israeli administration with the United States previous Hawkish Administration both seem to only employ force when engaging in International politics.

Btw,

I do not see Israel's government as a reflection on all Jewish people just the few Hawkish people who believe that the only way to solve conflict is through force and destruction. Same as I don't see every Muslim as a supporter of some of the backward, terrorist states in the Middle East.

bitty41 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:If the Arab countries wanted to help the Palestinians they can do that very easily. The Saudi's can give them very well paying jobs and the Egyptians can open their borders to them. Instead they choose to give their family money if they become suicide bombers.

By relocating the Palestinians into their country they would supporting Israel's claim to that land which NO ARAB country does. That doesn't make too much sense imo.

They don't have to relocate Palestinians. They can build factories in Gaza and Egypt can open their borders as a trade route.

BItty, its not the numbers. Think with your heart, with your reasoning, not with Numbers.

My point is one side fights to preserve life and the other discounts.

Perhaps a mistake was made on that boat but they were baiting them into a confrontation. Israel should have done better knowing this.

But lets be real here, there are lots of ways to peace but you have to have a willing partner. Israel has made many concessions over the years but to no avail.

The graphics depict some views I agree with.

YOu can debate many things, but some cannot.

I am bias emotionally on this one.

bitty41 wrote:

Silverfuel wrote:If the Arab countries wanted to help the Palestinians they can do that very easily. The Saudi's can give them very well paying jobs and the Egyptians can open their borders to them. Instead they choose to give their family money if they become suicide bombers.

By relocating the Palestinians into their country they would supporting Israel's claim to that land which NO ARAB country does. That doesn't make too much sense imo.

But the UN does recognize Israel as a separate nation. It was voted upon in 1947 by the members of the UN and passed with a 2/3 majority, the "No" votes coming from the arab and muslim states. Israel legally exists in accord with International Law.

Another interesting fact - when Palestine was divided into a Jewish and Arab/Palestinian/muslim states, the Jewish State never displaced the Palestinians. The Jewish declaration of Independence stated that Israel

"will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

Israel is secular country guaranteeing freedom of Religion. Now compare that to the Arab nations.

The Palestinians were never forced out and put in refugee camps. They left willingly because:

The following day, the armies of five Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq—attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;

The Arab armies vowed to kill every man, woman and child in Israel. Bitty, knowing you are very much a humanitarian from your posts in many previous threads, you may want to research if/how the Arab armies followed the Geneva Conventions of War and what they did to the captured Jewish woman and children.

Israel has been in a state of war since it was formed in 1948.First against the militaries of the 5 arab nations (3 major wars) and then against the terror organizations who are heavily armed and are allowed to exist in some of the arab states bordering Israel. From your point of view, it is a matter of human rights - you feel the Palestinians are being mistreated. From the Israeli point of view it is a matter of life and death. If Hamas or Hezbollah were to overun Israel, they wouldn't stop at just killing the Israeli soldiers.

I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.

I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.

Markji wrote:I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.

While I'm thoroughly enjoying your insights and information previously unknown to me, you're basing argument around the topic the greatest political minds of the international community cannot answer?

SupremeCommander wrote:

Markji wrote:I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.

While I'm thoroughly enjoying your insights and information previously unknown to me, you're basing argument around the topic the greatest political minds of the international community cannot answer?

Then perhaps they aren't the greatest political minds? One has to think out of the box. If they continue to do the same things over and over again which haven't worked, they will get the same results. It is time to try something new.

And thanks for your compliment.

Bippity10 wrote:I wonder what the opinions would be if Canada or Mexico were lobbing dozens of missiles into New York City on a daily basis. It's easy to judge from afar.

^this pisses me off. If you have something to offer up towards the discussion then do so but just chiming for a potshot is a cheap move. I'm not trying to change minds or prevent people from offering up opposing opinions this is strictly a dialogue (relating to the Freedom Flotilla incident). And if you really want to get technical the last time I checked I'm a American citizen and as such my tax dollars as well as millions other Americans tax dollars go towards Israeli's military so yea we can kinda of judge them from afar.

But the UN does recognize Israel as a separate nation. It was voted upon in 1947 by the members of the UN and passed with a 2/3 majority, the "No" votes coming from the arab and muslim states. Israel legally exists in accord with International Law.

Markji,

The highlighted portion illustrates my point further even in 1947 (I think some of the Arab states have become more radical since) did not recognize Israel if that vote was held today I shudder to imagine what the voting patterns would be. But the only reason I brought this point was to show that there is a very strong reason why the Arab states, Iran, etc will not relocate the Palestinians.

Honestly don't get me started on some of the Arab states but that's an entirely different rant believe me as a woman I don't have many things to say about the Arab states leadership and radical Muslim states.

I'd love to see peace there. You didn't address my comment about this from my previous post and how peace could actually be attained.

This is no easy question and I don't know if our leadership is even ready to honestly pursue a legitimate peace process. There is no money in peace but again this an entirely different topic.

Israelies are essentially occupying what they believe to be their rightful land --- through military force. I'm not condoning acts of terrorism at all, but lets be real --- they feel bullied. You would too.

I can't understand why they just cant agree upon a two-state solution. Its the most fair and equitable. Somewhere along the Gaza Strip and West bank.

In the meantime, I get annoyed how any slight criticsm of Israeli's is framed as anti-semitism, EVERY TIME.